Return to Video

DR2 Detektor - Old (and wrong) numbers pollutes ACTA debate.

  • 0:01 - 0:05
    Once you had to buy one of these to listen to your favorite song
  • 0:18 - 0:23
    Later the discs became smaller
  • 0:31 - 0:38
    and today, at a single, free click from your mouse, music flows from your speakers
  • 0:46 - 0:50
    But according to Ivan Pedersen, who became famous with this song, which he created with his band Laban in the 80s
  • 0:50 - 0:54
    and who chairs the association of danish composers and songwriters (DPA),
  • 0:54 - 1:00
    too many people listen to music without paying for it.
  • 1:01 - 1:07
    So many that "his livelihood is vanishing", as Ivan Pedersen wrote in a recent op-ed
  • 1:07 - 1:12
    Today there's plenty of options to legally buy music online, he writes
  • 1:12 - 1:21
    But nevertheless illegal filesharing and streaming accounts for 95 % of all music traffic
  • 1:21 - 1:25
    The day after his op-ed the number appeared in a debate at the danish parliament Christiansborg
  • 1:25 - 1:29
    In a meeting in the european committee, danish trade minister Pia Olsen Dyhr explains
  • 1:30 - 1:34
    why Denmark will ratify the disputed ACTA treaty,
  • 1:34 - 1:37
    that aims at stopping illegal filesharing in Europe.
  • 1:37 - 1:42
    You have to bear in mind that, I think it is 95% of all music
  • 1:42 - 1:46
    that is downloaded from the internet, is downloaded illegally
  • 1:47 - 1:50
    The Government is very concerned about illegal file-sharing
  • 1:50 - 1:53
    Minister of Culture, Uffe Elbæk, recently called upon a number of experts to discuss
  • 1:53 - 1:56
    possible solutions to the problem.
  • 1:56 - 2:03
    One of his advisors is Ivan Pedersen
  • 2:03 - 2:06
    of all music related internet traffic on danish IP addresses.
  • 2:06 - 2:10
    But is this true?
  • 2:10 - 2:13
    (Lecia sings: "let's get one thing straight")
  • 2:14 - 2:16
    Yes, let's do that!
  • 2:16 - 2:19
    (Lecia sings: "Can you answer for your part?")
  • 2:20 - 2:26
    But first let's sort out, what's actually legal or illegal file sharing and streaming.
  • 2:26 - 2:31
    There's plenty of options when you want to listen to a song.
  • 2:31 - 2:36
    You can buy it from renowned site like iTunes and TDC-music [a danish music service].
  • 2:37 - 2:41
    It's legal because because the provider pays the artist when he sells a song
  • 2:41 - 2:48
    You can also subscribe to a streaming service like Spotify, which gives you access to a large music library.
  • 2:48 - 2:54
    This is legal because Spotify pays the artist for having his music in the library.
  • 2:54 - 3:00
    But you can also download music for free using services such as Kazaa and Rapidshare.
  • 3:01 - 3:06
    Here, thousands of users make music available,which everyone can download to their computer.
  • 3:06 - 3:14
    But these networks don't have agreements with the artist, who made the music, so he doesn't get a dime.
  • 3:15 - 3:21
    And these illegal downloads should account for 95 percent of all downloads.
  • 3:21 - 3:25
    Ivan Pedersen says that he has the number - 95 percent
  • 3:25 - 3:30
    from the Rights Alliance, which represents more than 52.000 danish rights holders.
  • 3:30 - 3:36
    And according the Rights Alliance the number is from a report made the international chapter of IFPI
  • 3:36 - 3:38
    which represents the recording industry worldwide
  • 3:40 - 3:43
    IFPI, however, refused to grant Detektor access to the numbers behind their report
  • 3:43 - 3:46
    so we cannot review it's credibility.
  • 3:49 - 3:53
    But the interest group no longer refers to the number in their latest
  • 3:53 - 3:57
    report from 2012.
  • 3:57 - 4:01
    The international number of 95 percent was published
  • 4:01 - 4:05
    in a report in 2009 - so it's a couple of years old.
  • 4:05 - 4:12
    Ivan Pedersen is only talking about file sharing in Denmark, and here the number can't be used at all, says IFPI Denmark
  • 4:12 - 4:15
    the danish branch of the international record label interest group.
  • 4:15 - 4:19
    The way I see it you cannot use this number in Denmark
  • 4:19 - 4:24
    because the number is based on study of the global market.
  • 4:24 - 4:27
    So you can't just transfer the number onto the danish market.
  • 4:27 - 4:32
    However there is no doubt that illegal file sharing services are a problem for the danish market.
  • 4:32 - 4:38
    Not least because the make life harder for legal services trying to establish themselves.
  • 4:38 - 4:42
    But then how much music is actually acquired illegally?
  • 4:42 - 4:46
    The Ministry of Culture actually tried to answer that question in april 2011,
  • 4:46 - 4:51
    when it evaluated the the extent of digital piracy on the internet
  • 4:51 - 4:54
    - This is a thing which is very difficult to measure.
  • 4:54 - 4:58
    Martin Nielsen from the accounting company Ernst & Young lead the project
  • 4:58 - 5:02
    and read through numerous surveys from all over the world
  • 5:02 - 5:07
    The Internet is gigantic and theres an enormous amount of traffic
  • 5:07 - 5:10
    requires measuring during a long period of time and you need to make sure you're dealing with a representative group.
  • 5:10 - 5:15
    To get closer to the answer it was necessary to look towards our Norwegian neighbours.
  • 5:15 - 5:18
    - We couldn't find any numbers from Denmark, which of course is regrettable.
  • 5:18 - 5:22
    The closest we could get was Norway. There, a study was completed in 2008.
  • 5:22 - 5:27
    According to this study, approximately 30 million tracks were copied illegally per week.
  • 5:27 - 5:30
    Which makes up approximately 55 percent to the total volume of copied tracks.
  • 5:30 - 5:35
    But Martin Nielsen says the last three years of development on the music market have been of great significance.
  • 5:35 - 5:39
    -New streaming services make it easier to get music legally.
  • 5:39 - 5:45
    It has taken away the motivation to do it illegally, so I think we are significantly below 95 percent.
  • 5:45 - 5:51
    But there is, in fact, one survey made in Denmark.
  • 5:51 - 5:57
    In November 2010 KODA made an internal study in Denmark.
  • 5:57 - 6:00
    The organisation, which manages musicians' rights,
  • 6:00 - 6:03
    asked a representative sample of the Danish population
  • 6:03 - 6:07
    from where they had the latest track in their music collection
  • 6:08 - 6:11
    A quarter of the interviewees replied that the latest track in their collection
  • 6:11 - 6:16
    had been downloaded, and roughly half of those had paid for the song.
  • 6:16 - 6:19
    Which means at least half of those polled had acquired
  • 6:19 - 6:23
    the latest track in their music collection in a lawful manner
  • 6:23 - 6:30
    and as for the remaining downloads which had not been paid for, you cannot say whether they are illegal or not.
  • 6:30 - 6:35
    "What did I talk about? What did I have to say?"
  • 6:35 - 6:40
    "He is confused, so I dare to say ...."
  • 6:40 - 6:43
    That there really is no documentation proving
  • 6:43 - 6:51
    that illegal file sharing and streaming constitute 95 percent of all music traffic on danish IP-adresses.
  • 6:52 - 6:55
    Welcome to you, Ivan Pedersen.
  • 6:55 - 7:03
    Is it true that illegal file sharing and streaming from Danish IP addresses constitute 95 percent of all music traffic?
  • 7:04 - 7:06
    I reserve the right to wise up.
  • 7:06 - 7:09
    And I have really been taught a lesson these past few days.
  • 7:09 - 7:15
    The numbers used in my article 2 weeks ago turned out not to hold water.
  • 7:15 - 7:21
    They are three years old. I got those numbers where I normally obtain sober information, about the issues I talk about.
  • 7:21 - 7:27
    But I now understand that the 95% I used
  • 7:27 - 7:35
    in reality were numbers describing the global situation. And three years ago.
  • 7:35 - 7:40
    How does this affect the debate on illegal streaming and downloading of songs if
  • 7:40 - 7:46
    you publicly use very exaggerated numbers, which turn out not to be true?
  • 7:47 - 7:49
    It deals my opponents a stronger hand.
  • 7:49 - 7:54
    Obviously this is the last time that I - out of pure anger,
  • 7:54 - 8:04
    you know, passion-driven argumentation - use the latest figures I have been given, just because it fits my stuff.
  • 8:04 - 8:07
    Good. Let's get out the Detektor Truth-o-meter
  • 8:07 - 8:09
    We have one of those here in the Studio and you may try it.
  • 8:09 - 8:11
    Ivan Pedersen, as a spokesperson of DPA:
  • 8:11 - 8:20
    The statement that 95% of all danish music streaming and downloading is illegal
  • 8:20 - 8:23
    95% is false, right?
  • 8:24 - 8:30
    According to what I have been able to gather today, it's probably half of the traffic on the Internet
  • 8:30 - 8:39
    of music or other copyright-protected material, that happens without remunerating the creators and performers.
  • 8:39 - 8:41
    But the 95% - it is false?
  • 8:41 - 8:43
    Yes, it is false.
  • 8:43 - 8:43
    And yet you placed it ...?
  • 8:43 - 8:46
    No oo, what I have been TOLD is that it is false.
  • 8:46 - 8:48
    Strictly speaking, I cannnot know. I have been told that the figures are not accurate,
  • 8:48 - 8:50
    it is not the latest numbers.
  • 8:50 - 8:52
    So now that you have the opportunity and the possibility:
  • 8:52 - 8:55
    What would you write, if you were to rewrite your op-ed in Politiken [a danish daily].
  • 8:55 - 9:01
    I'd write "a dramatically large proportion of the traffic of copyright-protected material
  • 9:01 - 9:03
    on Danish IP addresses, are not paid for".
  • 9:03 - 9:05
    Ivan Pedersen, thank you very much for being on the show.
  • 9:05 - 9:07
    You're most welcome! (laughs)
  • 9:08 - 9:12
    So far so good. But then there was the Trade Minister.
  • 9:12 - 9:15
    Who coined it this way:
  • 9:15 - 9:19
    I think it's 95% of the music that's downloaded on the net,
  • 9:19 - 9:21
    which is downloaded illegally.
  • 9:21 - 9:28
    In a § 20 questions in the danish Parliament, Stine Brix from Enhedslisten asked from where the Minister has her facts.
  • 9:28 - 9:32
    Pia Olsen Dyhr response to Stine Brix was that she received her information from IFPI,
  • 9:32 - 9:35
    and that she did not find any reason to doubt them.
  • 9:37 - 9:43
    How can you use three to four year-old figures on illegal music downloads?
  • 9:43 - 9:48
    It was the figure I was given prior to our consultation in the Committee for European Affairs
  • 9:48 - 9:52
    It's unfortunate that the figure is so old.
  • 9:52 - 9:54
    It is actually also a pity that the number is so much bigger, because it clouds
  • 9:54 - 9:58
    a debate that should be taken seriously. Namely that you're not allowed to download illegally on the Internet.
  • 9:58 - 10:01
    Just like you may not steal an orange in the supermarket
  • 10:01 - 10:08
    We know that there are too many who do it. Whether it's 28 or 95 percent or whatever it is.
  • 10:08 - 10:10
    It is still too many.
  • 10:10 - 10:15
    But what does it do to the debate whether it's 28% or 95% or somewhere in between?
  • 10:15 - 10:19
    It makes it blurred, because we need to have real numbers in debates.
  • 10:19 - 10:20
    I think that's very important, actually.
  • 10:20 - 10:23
    The Danish study that shows that half of all the music,
  • 10:23 - 10:29
    that's downloaded from the internet, has been paid for, is newer than the one from IFPI.
  • 10:29 - 10:32
    Why aren't you using a number like that instead?
  • 10:32 - 10:34
    First of all, because I did not know that number. That's fair and square.
  • 10:34 - 10:38
    Secondly, this number says nothing about how much is illegal.
  • 10:38 - 10:41
    Because we cannot necessarily conclude that the other half
  • 10:41 - 10:43
    is illegal downloading just because you haven't paid for it.
  • 10:43 - 10:46
    But it does, at the least, say that half is legal,
  • 10:46 - 10:49
    so it can't be more than half which is illegal.
  • 10:49 - 10:51
    I'm happy to use those numbers in the future.
  • 10:51 - 10:54
    Well, let's get out the Detektor truth-o-meter.
  • 10:54 - 10:57
    You may place the red dot yourself.
  • 10:57 - 11:02
    Is it true or false that 95% of all music downloads are illegal?
  • 11:02 - 11:07
    It was. after all, true in 2009, when this report was made.
  • 11:07 - 11:10
    But with the development I have seen, we must of course be moving towards here,
  • 11:10 - 11:13
    because, in reality, the numbers look differently today.
  • 11:13 - 11:14
    Pia Olsen Dyhr, thank you very much.
  • 11:14 -
    My pleasure.
Title:
DR2 Detektor - Old (and wrong) numbers pollutes ACTA debate.
Description:

About the show:
http://www.dr.dk/P1/Detektor/Udsendelser/2012/02/28154014.htm - translation: http://bit.ly/95_percent

NB: What was not very clear here is that the 95% number is from 2008, not 2009 (the reports come out in January and deal with the year before), and cannot be sourced. The report calls it "an estimate".
more » « less
Video Language:
Danish
Duration:
11:17

English subtitles

Revisions

Our website uses cookies for analysis purposes.