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Once you had to buy one of these to listen to your favorite song

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Later the discs became smaller

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and today, at a single, free click from your mouse, music flows from your speakers

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But according to Ivan Pedersen, who became famous with this song, which he created with his band Laban in the 80s

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and who chairs the association of danish composers and songwriters (DPA),

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too many people listen to music without paying for it.

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So many that "his livelihood is vanishing", as Ivan Pedersen wrote in a recent op-ed

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Today there's plenty of options to legally buy music online, he writes

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But nevertheless illegal filesharing and streaming accounts for 95 % of all music traffic

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The day after his op-ed the number appeared in a debate at the danish parliament Christiansborg

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In a meeting in the european committee, danish trade minister Pia Olsen Dyhr explains

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why Denmark will ratify the disputed ACTA treaty,

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that aims at stopping illegal filesharing in Europe.

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You have to bear in mind that, I think it is 95% of all music

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that is downloaded from the internet, is downloaded illegally

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The Government is very concerned about illegal file-sharing

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Minister of Culture, Uffe Elbæk, recently called upon a number of experts to discuss

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possible solutions to the problem.

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One of his advisors is Ivan Pedersen

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of all music related internet traffic on danish IP addresses.

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But is this true?

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(Lecia sings: "let's get one thing straight")

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Yes, let's do that!

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(Lecia sings: "Can you answer for your part?")

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But first let's sort out, what's actually legal or illegal file sharing and streaming.

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There's plenty of options when you want to listen to a song.

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You can buy it from renowned site like iTunes and TDC-music [a danish music service].

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It's legal because because the provider pays the artist when he sells a song

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You can also subscribe to a streaming service like Spotify, which gives you access to a large music library.

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This is legal because Spotify pays the artist for having his music in the library.

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But you can also download music for free using services such as Kazaa and Rapidshare.

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Here, thousands of users make music available,which everyone can download to their computer.

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But these networks don't have agreements with the artist, who made the music, so he doesn't get a dime.

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And these illegal downloads should account for 95 percent of all downloads.

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Ivan Pedersen says that he has the number - 95 percent

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from the Rights Alliance, which represents more than 52.000 danish rights holders.

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And according the Rights Alliance the number is from a report made the international chapter of IFPI

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which represents the recording industry worldwide

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IFPI, however, refused to grant Detektor access to the numbers behind their report

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so we cannot review it's credibility.

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But the interest group no longer refers to the number in their latest

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report from 2012.

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The international number of 95 percent was published

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in a report in 2009 - so it's a couple of years old.

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Ivan Pedersen is only talking about file sharing in Denmark, and here the number can't be used at all, says IFPI Denmark

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the danish branch of the international record label interest group.

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The way I see it you cannot use this number in Denmark

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because the number is based on study of the global market.

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So you can't just transfer the number onto the danish market.

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However there is no doubt that illegal file sharing services are a problem for the danish market.

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Not least because the make life harder for legal services trying to establish themselves.

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But then how much music is actually acquired illegally?

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The Ministry of Culture actually tried to answer that question in april 2011,

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when it evaluated the the extent of digital piracy on the internet

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- This is a thing which is very difficult to measure.

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Martin Nielsen from the accounting company Ernst & Young lead the project

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and read through numerous surveys from all over the world

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The Internet is gigantic and theres an enormous amount of traffic

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requires measuring during a long period of time and you need to make sure you're dealing with a representative group.

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To get closer to the answer it was necessary to look towards our Norwegian neighbours.

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- We couldn't find any numbers from Denmark, which of course is regrettable.

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The closest we could get was Norway. There, a study was completed in 2008.

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According to this study, approximately 30 million tracks were copied illegally per week.

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Which makes up approximately 55 percent to the total volume of copied tracks.

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But Martin Nielsen says the last three years of development on the music market have been of great significance.

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-New streaming services make it easier to get music legally.

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It has taken away the motivation to do it illegally, so I think we are significantly below 95 percent.

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But there is, in fact, one survey made in Denmark.

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In November 2010 KODA made an internal study in Denmark.

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The organisation, which manages musicians' rights,

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asked a representative sample of the Danish population

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from where they had the latest track in their music collection

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A quarter of the interviewees replied that the latest track in their collection

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had been downloaded, and roughly half of those had paid for the song.

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Which means at least half of those polled had acquired

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the latest track in their music collection in a lawful manner

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and as for the remaining downloads which had not been paid for, you cannot say whether they are illegal or not.

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"What did I talk about? What did I have to say?"

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"He is confused, so I dare to say ...."

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That there really is no documentation proving

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that illegal file sharing and streaming constitute 95 percent of all music traffic on danish IP-adresses.

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Welcome to you, Ivan Pedersen.

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Is it true that illegal file sharing and streaming from Danish IP addresses constitute 95 percent of all music traffic?

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I reserve the right to wise up.

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And I have really been taught a lesson these past few days.

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The numbers used in my article 2 weeks ago turned out not to hold water.

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They are three years old. I got those numbers where I normally obtain sober information, about the issues I talk about.

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But I now understand that the 95% I used

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in reality were numbers describing the global situation. And three years ago.

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How does this affect the debate on illegal streaming and downloading of songs if

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you publicly use very exaggerated numbers, which turn out not to be true?

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It deals my opponents a stronger hand.

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Obviously this is the last time that I - out of pure anger,

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you know, passion-driven argumentation - use the latest figures I have been given, just because it fits my stuff.

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Good. Let's get out the Detektor Truth-o-meter

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We have one of those here in the Studio and you may try it.

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Ivan Pedersen, as a spokesperson of DPA:

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The statement that 95% of all danish music streaming and downloading is illegal

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95% is false, right?

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According to what I have been able to gather today, it's probably half of the traffic on the Internet

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of music or other copyright-protected material, that happens without remunerating the creators and performers.

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But the 95% - it is false?

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Yes, it is false.

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And yet you placed it ...?

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No oo, what I have been TOLD is that it is false.

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Strictly speaking, I cannnot know. I have been told that the figures are not accurate,

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it is not the latest numbers.

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So now that you have the opportunity and the possibility:

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What would you write, if you were to rewrite your op-ed in Politiken [a danish daily].

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I'd write "a dramatically large proportion of the traffic of copyright-protected material

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on Danish IP addresses, are not paid for".

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Ivan Pedersen, thank you very much for being on the show.

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You're most welcome! (laughs)

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So far so good. But then there was the Trade Minister.

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Who coined it this way:

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I think it's 95% of the music that's downloaded on the net,

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which is downloaded illegally.

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In a § 20 questions in the danish Parliament, Stine Brix from Enhedslisten asked from where the Minister has her facts.

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Pia Olsen Dyhr response to Stine Brix was that she received her information from IFPI,

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and that she did not find any reason to doubt them.

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How can you use three to four year-old figures on illegal music downloads?

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It was the figure I was given prior to our consultation in the Committee for European Affairs

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It's unfortunate that the figure is so old.

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It is actually also a pity that the number is so much bigger, because it clouds

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a debate that should be taken seriously. Namely that you're not allowed to download illegally on the Internet.

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Just like you may not steal an orange in the supermarket

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We know that there are too many who do it. Whether it's 28 or 95 percent or whatever it is.

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It is still too many.

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But what does it do to the debate whether it's 28% or 95% or somewhere in between?

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It makes it blurred, because we need to have real numbers in debates.

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I think that's very important, actually.

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The Danish study that shows that half of all the music,

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that's downloaded from the internet, has been paid for, is newer than the one from IFPI.

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Why aren't you using a number like that instead?

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First of all, because I did not know that number. That's fair and square.

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Secondly, this number says nothing about how much is illegal.

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Because we cannot necessarily conclude that the other half

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is illegal downloading just because you haven't paid for it.

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But it does, at the least, say that half is legal,

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so it can't be more than half which is illegal.

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I'm happy to use those numbers in the future.

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Well, let's get out the Detektor truth-o-meter.

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You may place the red dot yourself.

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Is it true or false that 95% of all music downloads are illegal?

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It was. after all, true in 2009, when this report was made.

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But with the development I have seen, we must of course be moving towards here,

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because, in reality, the numbers look differently today.

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Pia Olsen Dyhr, thank you very much.

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My pleasure.