WEBVTT 00:00:01.120 --> 00:00:05.120 Once you had to buy one of these to listen to your favorite song 00:00:17.735 --> 00:00:22.605 Later the discs became smaller NOTE Paragraph 00:00:31.394 --> 00:00:37.735 and today, at a single, free click from your mouse, music flows from your speakers 00:00:45.920 --> 00:00:50.486 But according to Ivan Pedersen, who became famous with this song, which he created with his band Laban in the 80s NOTE Paragraph 00:00:50.486 --> 00:00:54.056 and who chairs the association of danish composers and songwriters (DPA), 00:00:54.056 --> 00:00:59.662 too many people listen to music without paying for it. 00:01:00.846 --> 00:01:06.641 So many that "his livelihood is vanishing", as Ivan Pedersen wrote in a recent op-ed 00:01:06.641 --> 00:01:11.564 Today there's plenty of options to legally buy music online, he writes 00:01:11.564 --> 00:01:20.526 But nevertheless illegal filesharing and streaming accounts for 95 % of all music traffic 00:01:21.087 --> 00:01:25.148 The day after his op-ed the number appeared in a debate at the danish parliament Christiansborg 00:01:25.148 --> 00:01:29.483 In a meeting in the european committee, danish trade minister Pia Olsen Dyhr explains 00:01:29.529 --> 00:01:34.200 why Denmark will ratify the disputed ACTA treaty, 00:01:34.200 --> 00:01:37.089 that aims at stopping illegal filesharing in Europe. NOTE Paragraph 00:01:37.151 --> 00:01:42.240 You have to bear in mind that, I think it is 95% of all music NOTE Paragraph 00:01:42.240 --> 00:01:45.982 that is downloaded from the internet, is downloaded illegally 00:01:46.674 --> 00:01:49.994 The Government is very concerned about illegal file-sharing 00:01:50.009 --> 00:01:53.476 Minister of Culture, Uffe Elbæk, recently called upon a number of experts to discuss 00:01:53.476 --> 00:01:56.400 possible solutions to the problem. 00:01:56.400 --> 00:02:03.160 One of his advisors is Ivan Pedersen 00:02:03.160 --> 00:02:06.479 of all music related internet traffic on danish IP addresses. 00:02:06.479 --> 00:02:09.614 But is this true? 00:02:09.614 --> 00:02:13.378 (Lecia sings: "let's get one thing straight") 00:02:13.785 --> 00:02:15.809 Yes, let's do that! 00:02:15.809 --> 00:02:19.032 (Lecia sings: "Can you answer for your part?") 00:02:20.268 --> 00:02:25.545 But first let's sort out, what's actually legal or illegal file sharing and streaming. 00:02:25.545 --> 00:02:30.720 There's plenty of options when you want to listen to a song. 00:02:31.249 --> 00:02:36.289 You can buy it from renowned site like iTunes and TDC-music [a danish music service]. 00:02:36.628 --> 00:02:40.627 It's legal because because the provider pays the artist when he sells a song 00:02:41.360 --> 00:02:48.065 You can also subscribe to a streaming service like Spotify, which gives you access to a large music library. 00:02:48.400 --> 00:02:53.625 This is legal because Spotify pays the artist for having his music in the library. 00:02:54.200 --> 00:03:00.332 But you can also download music for free using services such as Kazaa and Rapidshare. 00:03:00.721 --> 00:03:06.018 Here, thousands of users make music available,which everyone can download to their computer. 00:03:06.200 --> 00:03:14.277 But these networks don't have agreements with the artist, who made the music, so he doesn't get a dime. 00:03:14.572 --> 00:03:21.038 And these illegal downloads should account for 95 percent of all downloads. 00:03:21.038 --> 00:03:24.680 Ivan Pedersen says that he has the number - 95 percent 00:03:24.680 --> 00:03:29.529 from the Rights Alliance, which represents more than 52.000 danish rights holders. 00:03:29.656 --> 00:03:35.772 And according the Rights Alliance the number is from a report made the international chapter of IFPI 00:03:35.772 --> 00:03:38.098 which represents the recording industry worldwide 00:03:39.840 --> 00:03:43.080 IFPI, however, refused to grant Detektor access to the numbers behind their report 00:03:43.080 --> 00:03:46.098 so we cannot review it's credibility. 00:03:48.520 --> 00:03:52.919 But the interest group no longer refers to the number in their latest 00:03:52.919 --> 00:03:56.732 report from 2012. 00:03:56.983 --> 00:04:01.280 The international number of 95 percent was published 00:04:01.280 --> 00:04:05.062 in a report in 2009 - so it's a couple of years old. 00:04:05.428 --> 00:04:12.000 Ivan Pedersen is only talking about file sharing in Denmark, and here the number can't be used at all, says IFPI Denmark 00:04:12.000 --> 00:04:15.480 the danish branch of the international record label interest group. 00:04:15.480 --> 00:04:18.694 The way I see it you cannot use this number in Denmark 00:04:18.694 --> 00:04:23.640 because the number is based on study of the global market. 00:04:23.640 --> 00:04:26.649 So you can't just transfer the number onto the danish market. 00:04:26.649 --> 00:04:31.615 However there is no doubt that illegal file sharing services are a problem for the danish market. 00:04:31.615 --> 00:04:37.732 Not least because the make life harder for legal services trying to establish themselves. 00:04:37.732 --> 00:04:42.480 But then how much music is actually acquired illegally? 00:04:42.480 --> 00:04:45.775 The Ministry of Culture actually tried to answer that question in april 2011, 00:04:45.775 --> 00:04:50.668 when it evaluated the the extent of digital piracy on the internet 00:04:50.791 --> 00:04:53.512 - This is a thing which is very difficult to measure. 00:04:53.650 --> 00:04:57.965 Martin Nielsen from the accounting company Ernst & Young lead the project 00:04:58.104 --> 00:05:01.512 and read through numerous surveys from all over the world 00:05:01.527 --> 00:05:06.573 The Internet is gigantic and theres an enormous amount of traffic 00:05:06.573 --> 00:05:09.627 requires measuring during a long period of time and you need to make sure you're dealing with a representative group. 00:05:10.304 --> 00:05:14.788 To get closer to the answer it was necessary to look towards our Norwegian neighbours. 00:05:14.788 --> 00:05:17.635 - We couldn't find any numbers from Denmark, which of course is regrettable. 00:05:17.635 --> 00:05:21.719 The closest we could get was Norway. There, a study was completed in 2008. 00:05:21.719 --> 00:05:26.758 According to this study, approximately 30 million tracks were copied illegally per week. 00:05:26.758 --> 00:05:30.397 Which makes up approximately 55 percent to the total volume of copied tracks. 00:05:30.397 --> 00:05:35.065 But Martin Nielsen says the last three years of development on the music market have been of great significance. 00:05:35.204 --> 00:05:38.827 -New streaming services make it easier to get music legally. 00:05:38.842 --> 00:05:45.019 It has taken away the motivation to do it illegally, so I think we are significantly below 95 percent. 00:05:45.227 --> 00:05:50.526 But there is, in fact, one survey made in Denmark. 00:05:50.595 --> 00:05:56.641 In November 2010 KODA made an internal study in Denmark. 00:05:56.641 --> 00:06:00.072 The organisation, which manages musicians' rights, 00:06:00.072 --> 00:06:03.336 asked a representative sample of the Danish population 00:06:03.336 --> 00:06:07.292 from where they had the latest track in their music collection 00:06:07.600 --> 00:06:11.112 A quarter of the interviewees replied that the latest track in their collection 00:06:11.251 --> 00:06:15.786 had been downloaded, and roughly half of those had paid for the song. 00:06:16.032 --> 00:06:18.586 Which means at least half of those polled had acquired 00:06:18.586 --> 00:06:23.101 the latest track in their music collection in a lawful manner 00:06:23.251 --> 00:06:29.882 and as for the remaining downloads which had not been paid for, you cannot say whether they are illegal or not. 00:06:30.205 --> 00:06:35.342 "What did I talk about? What did I have to say?" 00:06:35.404 --> 00:06:40.077 "He is confused, so I dare to say ...." 00:06:40.208 --> 00:06:42.889 That there really is no documentation proving 00:06:43.075 --> 00:06:51.286 that illegal file sharing and streaming constitute 95 percent of all music traffic on danish IP-adresses. 00:06:51.602 --> 00:06:55.002 Welcome to you, Ivan Pedersen. 00:06:55.002 --> 00:07:03.260 Is it true that illegal file sharing and streaming from Danish IP addresses constitute 95 percent of all music traffic? 00:07:03.998 --> 00:07:06.255 I reserve the right to wise up. 00:07:06.255 --> 00:07:09.020 And I have really been taught a lesson these past few days. 00:07:09.020 --> 00:07:15.005 The numbers used in my article 2 weeks ago turned out not to hold water. 00:07:15.005 --> 00:07:21.057 They are three years old. I got those numbers where I normally obtain sober information, about the issues I talk about. 00:07:21.057 --> 00:07:26.921 But I now understand that the 95% I used 00:07:26.921 --> 00:07:34.565 in reality were numbers describing the global situation. And three years ago. 00:07:34.565 --> 00:07:40.280 How does this affect the debate on illegal streaming and downloading of songs if 00:07:40.280 --> 00:07:46.195 you publicly use very exaggerated numbers, which turn out not to be true? 00:07:46.508 --> 00:07:49.358 It deals my opponents a stronger hand. 00:07:49.358 --> 00:07:54.367 Obviously this is the last time that I - out of pure anger, 00:07:54.367 --> 00:08:03.886 you know, passion-driven argumentation - use the latest figures I have been given, just because it fits my stuff. 00:08:03.886 --> 00:08:06.814 Good. Let's get out the Detektor Truth-o-meter 00:08:06.814 --> 00:08:09.023 We have one of those here in the Studio and you may try it. 00:08:09.054 --> 00:08:11.262 Ivan Pedersen, as a spokesperson of DPA: 00:08:11.262 --> 00:08:19.640 The statement that 95% of all danish music streaming and downloading is illegal 00:08:19.640 --> 00:08:23.371 95% is false, right? 00:08:23.817 --> 00:08:30.335 According to what I have been able to gather today, it's probably half of the traffic on the Internet 00:08:30.335 --> 00:08:38.791 of music or other copyright-protected material, that happens without remunerating the creators and performers. 00:08:38.791 --> 00:08:41.160 But the 95% - it is false? 00:08:41.160 --> 00:08:42.522 Yes, it is false. 00:08:42.522 --> 00:08:43.431 And yet you placed it ...? 00:08:43.431 --> 00:08:45.785 No oo, what I have been TOLD is that it is false. 00:08:45.785 --> 00:08:48.102 Strictly speaking, I cannnot know. I have been told that the figures are not accurate, 00:08:48.102 --> 00:08:49.822 it is not the latest numbers. 00:08:49.822 --> 00:08:51.960 So now that you have the opportunity and the possibility: 00:08:51.960 --> 00:08:54.862 What would you write, if you were to rewrite your op-ed in Politiken [a danish daily]. 00:08:54.954 --> 00:09:00.720 I'd write "a dramatically large proportion of the traffic of copyright-protected material 00:09:00.720 --> 00:09:02.920 on Danish IP addresses, are not paid for". 00:09:02.920 --> 00:09:05.080 Ivan Pedersen, thank you very much for being on the show. 00:09:05.080 --> 00:09:06.692 You're most welcome! (laughs) 00:09:07.969 --> 00:09:12.080 So far so good. But then there was the Trade Minister. 00:09:12.080 --> 00:09:14.560 Who coined it this way: 00:09:14.560 --> 00:09:18.800 I think it's 95% of the music that's downloaded on the net, 00:09:18.800 --> 00:09:21.280 which is downloaded illegally. 00:09:21.280 --> 00:09:27.800 In a § 20 questions in the danish Parliament, Stine Brix from Enhedslisten asked from where the Minister has her facts. 00:09:27.800 --> 00:09:32.047 Pia Olsen Dyhr response to Stine Brix was that she received her information from IFPI, 00:09:32.047 --> 00:09:35.280 and that she did not find any reason to doubt them. 00:09:37.049 --> 00:09:42.626 How can you use three to four year-old figures on illegal music downloads? 00:09:42.811 --> 00:09:48.017 It was the figure I was given prior to our consultation in the Committee for European Affairs 00:09:48.017 --> 00:09:51.763 It's unfortunate that the figure is so old. 00:09:51.763 --> 00:09:54.222 It is actually also a pity that the number is so much bigger, because it clouds 00:09:54.222 --> 00:09:57.640 a debate that should be taken seriously. Namely that you're not allowed to download illegally on the Internet. 00:09:57.640 --> 00:10:00.680 Just like you may not steal an orange in the supermarket 00:10:00.680 --> 00:10:07.840 We know that there are too many who do it. Whether it's 28 or 95 percent or whatever it is. 00:10:07.840 --> 00:10:09.840 It is still too many. 00:10:09.840 --> 00:10:14.818 But what does it do to the debate whether it's 28% or 95% or somewhere in between? 00:10:14.818 --> 00:10:18.600 It makes it blurred, because we need to have real numbers in debates. 00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:20.440 I think that's very important, actually. 00:10:20.440 --> 00:10:23.363 The Danish study that shows that half of all the music, 00:10:23.363 --> 00:10:28.763 that's downloaded from the internet, has been paid for, is newer than the one from IFPI. 00:10:28.763 --> 00:10:31.880 Why aren't you using a number like that instead? 00:10:31.880 --> 00:10:34.360 First of all, because I did not know that number. That's fair and square. 00:10:34.360 --> 00:10:37.880 Secondly, this number says nothing about how much is illegal. 00:10:37.880 --> 00:10:40.840 Because we cannot necessarily conclude that the other half 00:10:40.840 --> 00:10:42.880 is illegal downloading just because you haven't paid for it. 00:10:42.880 --> 00:10:46.200 But it does, at the least, say that half is legal, 00:10:46.200 --> 00:10:48.880 so it can't be more than half which is illegal. 00:10:48.880 --> 00:10:51.138 I'm happy to use those numbers in the future. 00:10:51.280 --> 00:10:53.960 Well, let's get out the Detektor truth-o-meter. 00:10:53.960 --> 00:10:56.720 You may place the red dot yourself. 00:10:56.720 --> 00:11:01.960 Is it true or false that 95% of all music downloads are illegal? 00:11:01.960 --> 00:11:06.800 It was. after all, true in 2009, when this report was made. 00:11:06.800 --> 00:11:09.960 But with the development I have seen, we must of course be moving towards here, 00:11:09.960 --> 00:11:12.600 because, in reality, the numbers look differently today. 00:11:12.600 --> 00:11:14.320 Pia Olsen Dyhr, thank you very much. 00:11:14.320 --> 99:59:59.999 My pleasure.