Once you had to buy one of these to listen to your favorite song

Later the discs became smaller

and today, at a single, free click from your mouse, music flows from your speakers

But according to Ivan Pedersen, who became famous with this song, which he created with his band Laban in the 80s

and who chairs the association of danish composers and songwriters (DPA),

too many people listen to music without paying for it.

So many that "his livelihood is vanishing", as Ivan Pedersen wrote in a recent op-ed

Today there's plenty of options to legally buy music online, he writes

But nevertheless illegal filesharing and streaming accounts for 95 % of all music traffic

The day after his op-ed the number appeared in a debate at the danish parliament Christiansborg

In a meeting in the european committee, danish trade minister Pia Olsen Dyhr explains

why Denmark will ratify the disputed ACTA treaty,

that aims at stopping illegal filesharing in Europe.

You have to bear in mind that, I think it is 95% of all music

that is downloaded from the internet, is downloaded illegally

The Government is very concerned about illegal file-sharing

Minister of Culture, Uffe Elbæk, recently called upon a number of experts to discuss

possible solutions to the problem.

One of his advisors is Ivan Pedersen

of all music related internet traffic on danish IP addresses.

But is this true?

(Lecia sings: "let's get one thing straight")

Yes, let's do that!

(Lecia sings: "Can you answer for your part?")

But first let's sort out, what's actually legal or illegal file sharing and streaming.

There's plenty of options when you want to listen to a song.

You can buy it from renowned site like iTunes and TDC-music [a danish music service].

It's legal because because the provider pays the artist when he sells a song

You can also subscribe to a streaming service like Spotify, which gives you access to a large music library.

This is legal because Spotify pays the artist for having his music in the library.

But you can also download music for free using services such as Kazaa and Rapidshare.

Here, thousands of users make music available,which everyone can download to their computer.

But these networks don't have agreements with the artist, who made the music, so he doesn't get a dime.

And these illegal downloads should account for 95 percent of all downloads.

Ivan Pedersen says that he has the number - 95 percent

from the Rights Alliance, which represents more than 52.000 danish rights holders.

And according the Rights Alliance the number is from a report made the international chapter of IFPI

which represents the recording industry worldwide

IFPI, however, refused to grant Detektor access to the numbers behind their report

so we cannot review it's credibility.

But the interest group no longer refers to the number in their latest

report from 2012.

The international number of 95 percent was published

in a report in 2009 - so it's a couple of years old.

Ivan Pedersen is only talking about file sharing in Denmark, and here the number can't be used at all, says IFPI Denmark

the danish branch of the international record label interest group.

The way I see it you cannot use this number in Denmark

because the number is based on study of the global market.

So you can't just transfer the number onto the danish market.

However there is no doubt that illegal file sharing services are a problem for the danish market.

Not least because the make life harder for legal services trying to establish themselves.

But then how much music is actually acquired illegally?

The Ministry of Culture actually tried to answer that question in april 2011,

when it evaluated the the extent of digital piracy on the internet

- This is a thing which is very difficult to measure.

Martin Nielsen from the accounting company Ernst & Young lead the project

and read through numerous surveys from all over the world

The Internet is gigantic and theres an enormous amount of traffic

requires measuring during a long period of time and you need to make sure you're dealing with a representative group.

To get closer to the answer it was necessary to look towards our Norwegian neighbours.

- We couldn't find any numbers from Denmark, which of course is regrettable.

The closest we could get was Norway. There, a study was completed in 2008.

According to this study, approximately 30 million tracks were copied illegally per week.

Which makes up approximately 55 percent to the total volume of copied tracks.

But Martin Nielsen says the last three years of development on the music market have been of great significance.

-New streaming services make it easier to get music legally.

It has taken away the motivation to do it illegally, so I think we are significantly below 95 percent.

But there is, in fact, one survey made in Denmark.

In November 2010 KODA made an internal study in Denmark.

The organisation, which manages musicians' rights,

asked a representative sample of the Danish population

from where they had the latest track in their music collection

A quarter of the interviewees replied that the latest track in their collection

had been downloaded, and roughly half of those had paid for the song.

Which means at least half of those polled had acquired

the latest track in their music collection in a lawful manner

and as for the remaining downloads which had not been paid for, you cannot say whether they are illegal or not.

"What did I talk about? What did I have to say?"

"He is confused, so I dare to say ...."

That there really is no documentation proving

that illegal file sharing and streaming constitute 95 percent of all music traffic on danish IP-adresses.

Welcome to you, Ivan Pedersen.

Is it true that illegal file sharing and streaming from Danish IP addresses constitute 95 percent of all music traffic?

I reserve the right to wise up.

And I have really been taught a lesson these past few days.

The numbers used in my article 2 weeks ago turned out not to hold water.

They are three years old. I got those numbers where I normally obtain sober information, about the issues I talk about.

But I now understand that the 95% I used

in reality were numbers describing the global situation. And three years ago.

How does this affect the debate on illegal streaming and downloading of songs if

you publicly use very exaggerated numbers, which turn out not to be true?

It deals my opponents a stronger hand.

Obviously this is the last time that I - out of pure anger,

you know, passion-driven argumentation - use the latest figures I have been given, just because it fits my stuff.

Good. Let's get out the Detektor Truth-o-meter

We have one of those here in the Studio and you may try it.

Ivan Pedersen, as a spokesperson of DPA:

The statement that 95% of all danish music streaming and downloading is illegal

95% is false, right?

According to what I have been able to gather today, it's probably half of the traffic on the Internet

of music or other copyright-protected material, that happens without remunerating the creators and performers.

But the 95% - it is false?

Yes, it is false.

And yet you placed it ...?

No oo, what I have been TOLD is that it is false.

Strictly speaking, I cannnot know. I have been told that the figures are not accurate,

it is not the latest numbers.

So now that you have the opportunity and the possibility:

What would you write, if you were to rewrite your op-ed in Politiken [a danish daily].

I'd write "a dramatically large proportion of the traffic of copyright-protected material

on Danish IP addresses, are not paid for".

Ivan Pedersen, thank you very much for being on the show.

You're most welcome! (laughs)

So far so good. But then there was the Trade Minister.

Who coined it this way:

I think it's 95% of the music that's downloaded on the net,

which is downloaded illegally.

In a § 20 questions in the danish Parliament, Stine Brix from Enhedslisten asked from where the Minister has her facts.

Pia Olsen Dyhr response to Stine Brix was that she received her information from IFPI,

and that she did not find any reason to doubt them.

How can you use three to four year-old figures on illegal music downloads?

It was the figure I was given prior to our consultation in the Committee for European Affairs

It's unfortunate that the figure is so old.

It is actually also a pity that the number is so much bigger, because it clouds

a debate that should be taken seriously. Namely that you're not allowed to download illegally on the Internet.

Just like you may not steal an orange in the supermarket

We know that there are too many who do it. Whether it's 28 or 95 percent or whatever it is.

It is still too many.

But what does it do to the debate whether it's 28% or 95% or somewhere in between?

It makes it blurred, because we need to have real numbers in debates.

I think that's very important, actually.

The Danish study that shows that half of all the music,

that's downloaded from the internet, has been paid for, is newer than the one from IFPI.

Why aren't you using a number like that instead?

First of all, because I did not know that number. That's fair and square.

Secondly, this number says nothing about how much is illegal.

Because we cannot necessarily conclude that the other half

is illegal downloading just because you haven't paid for it.

But it does, at the least, say that half is legal,

so it can't be more than half which is illegal.

I'm happy to use those numbers in the future.

Well, let's get out the Detektor truth-o-meter.

You may place the red dot yourself.

Is it true or false that 95% of all music downloads are illegal?

It was. after all, true in 2009, when this report was made.

But with the development I have seen, we must of course be moving towards here,

because, in reality, the numbers look differently today.

Pia Olsen Dyhr, thank you very much.

My pleasure.