0:00:01.120,0:00:05.120 Once you had to buy one of these to listen to your favorite song 0:00:17.735,0:00:22.605 Later the discs became smaller 0:00:31.394,0:00:37.735 and today, at a single, free click from your mouse, music flows from your speakers 0:00:45.920,0:00:50.486 But according to Ivan Pedersen, who became famous with this song, which he created with his band Laban in the 80s 0:00:50.486,0:00:54.056 and who chairs the association of danish composers and songwriters (DPA), 0:00:54.056,0:00:59.662 too many people listen to music without paying for it. 0:01:00.846,0:01:06.641 So many that "his livelihood is vanishing", as Ivan Pedersen wrote in a recent op-ed 0:01:06.641,0:01:11.564 Today there's plenty of options to legally buy music online, he writes 0:01:11.564,0:01:20.526 But nevertheless illegal filesharing and streaming accounts for 95 % of all music traffic 0:01:21.087,0:01:25.148 The day after his op-ed the number appeared in a debate at the danish parliament Christiansborg 0:01:25.148,0:01:29.483 In a meeting in the european committee, danish trade minister Pia Olsen Dyhr explains 0:01:29.529,0:01:34.200 why Denmark will ratify the disputed ACTA treaty, 0:01:34.200,0:01:37.089 that aims at stopping illegal filesharing in Europe. 0:01:37.151,0:01:42.240 You have to bear in mind that, I think it is 95% of all music 0:01:42.240,0:01:45.982 that is downloaded from the internet, is downloaded illegally 0:01:46.674,0:01:49.994 The Government is very concerned about illegal file-sharing 0:01:50.009,0:01:53.476 Minister of Culture, Uffe Elbæk, recently called upon a number of experts to discuss 0:01:53.476,0:01:56.400 possible solutions to the problem. 0:01:56.400,0:02:03.160 One of his advisors is Ivan Pedersen 0:02:03.160,0:02:06.479 of all music related internet traffic on danish IP addresses. 0:02:06.479,0:02:09.614 But is this true? 0:02:09.614,0:02:13.378 (Lecia sings: "let's get one thing straight") 0:02:13.785,0:02:15.809 Yes, let's do that! 0:02:15.809,0:02:19.032 (Lecia sings: "Can you answer for your part?") 0:02:20.268,0:02:25.545 But first let's sort out, what's actually legal or illegal file sharing and streaming. 0:02:25.545,0:02:30.720 There's plenty of options when you want to listen to a song. 0:02:31.249,0:02:36.289 You can buy it from renowned site like iTunes and TDC-music [a danish music service]. 0:02:36.628,0:02:40.627 It's legal because because the provider pays the artist when he sells a song 0:02:41.360,0:02:48.065 You can also subscribe to a streaming service like Spotify, which gives you access to a large music library. 0:02:48.400,0:02:53.625 This is legal because Spotify pays the artist for having his music in the library. 0:02:54.200,0:03:00.332 But you can also download music for free using services such as Kazaa and Rapidshare. 0:03:00.721,0:03:06.018 Here, thousands of users make music available,which everyone can download to their computer. 0:03:06.200,0:03:14.277 But these networks don't have agreements with the artist, who made the music, so he doesn't get a dime. 0:03:14.572,0:03:21.038 And these illegal downloads should account for 95 percent of all downloads. 0:03:21.038,0:03:24.680 Ivan Pedersen says that he has the number - 95 percent 0:03:24.680,0:03:29.529 from the Rights Alliance, which represents more than 52.000 danish rights holders. 0:03:29.656,0:03:35.772 And according the Rights Alliance the number is from a report made the international chapter of IFPI 0:03:35.772,0:03:38.098 which represents the recording industry worldwide 0:03:39.840,0:03:43.080 IFPI, however, refused to grant Detektor access to the numbers behind their report 0:03:43.080,0:03:46.098 so we cannot review it's credibility. 0:03:48.520,0:03:52.919 But the interest group no longer refers to the number in their latest 0:03:52.919,0:03:56.732 report from 2012. 0:03:56.983,0:04:01.280 The international number of 95 percent was published 0:04:01.280,0:04:05.062 in a report in 2009 - so it's a couple of years old. 0:04:05.428,0:04:12.000 Ivan Pedersen is only talking about file sharing in Denmark, and here the number can't be used at all, says IFPI Denmark 0:04:12.000,0:04:15.480 the danish branch of the international record label interest group. 0:04:15.480,0:04:18.694 The way I see it you cannot use this number in Denmark 0:04:18.694,0:04:23.640 because the number is based on study of the global market. 0:04:23.640,0:04:26.649 So you can't just transfer the number onto the danish market. 0:04:26.649,0:04:31.615 However there is no doubt that illegal file sharing services are a problem for the danish market. 0:04:31.615,0:04:37.732 Not least because the make life harder for legal services trying to establish themselves. 0:04:37.732,0:04:42.480 But then how much music is actually acquired illegally? 0:04:42.480,0:04:45.775 The Ministry of Culture actually tried to answer that question in april 2011, 0:04:45.775,0:04:50.668 when it evaluated the the extent of digital piracy on the internet 0:04:50.791,0:04:53.512 - This is a thing which is very difficult to measure. 0:04:53.650,0:04:57.965 Martin Nielsen from the accounting company Ernst & Young lead the project 0:04:58.104,0:05:01.512 and read through numerous surveys from all over the world 0:05:01.527,0:05:06.573 The Internet is gigantic and theres an enormous amount of traffic 0:05:06.573,0:05:09.627 requires measuring during a long period of time and you need to make sure you're dealing with a representative group. 0:05:10.304,0:05:14.788 To get closer to the answer it was necessary to look towards our Norwegian neighbours. 0:05:14.788,0:05:17.635 - We couldn't find any numbers from Denmark, which of course is regrettable. 0:05:17.635,0:05:21.719 The closest we could get was Norway. There, a study was completed in 2008. 0:05:21.719,0:05:26.758 According to this study, approximately 30 million tracks were copied illegally per week. 0:05:26.758,0:05:30.397 Which makes up approximately 55 percent to the total volume of copied tracks. 0:05:30.397,0:05:35.065 But Martin Nielsen says the last three years of development on the music market have been of great significance. 0:05:35.204,0:05:38.827 -New streaming services make it easier to get music legally. 0:05:38.842,0:05:45.019 It has taken away the motivation to do it illegally, so I think we are significantly below 95 percent. 0:05:45.227,0:05:50.526 But there is, in fact, one survey made in Denmark. 0:05:50.595,0:05:56.641 In November 2010 KODA made an internal study in Denmark. 0:05:56.641,0:06:00.072 The organisation, which manages musicians' rights, 0:06:00.072,0:06:03.336 asked a representative sample of the Danish population 0:06:03.336,0:06:07.292 from where they had the latest track in their music collection 0:06:07.600,0:06:11.112 A quarter of the interviewees replied that the latest track in their collection 0:06:11.251,0:06:15.786 had been downloaded, and roughly half of those had paid for the song. 0:06:16.032,0:06:18.586 Which means at least half of those polled had acquired 0:06:18.586,0:06:23.101 the latest track in their music collection in a lawful manner 0:06:23.251,0:06:29.882 and as for the remaining downloads which had not been paid for, you cannot say whether they are illegal or not. 0:06:30.205,0:06:35.342 "What did I talk about? What did I have to say?" 0:06:35.404,0:06:40.077 "He is confused, so I dare to say ...." 0:06:40.208,0:06:42.889 That there really is no documentation proving 0:06:43.075,0:06:51.286 that illegal file sharing and streaming constitute 95 percent of all music traffic on danish IP-adresses. 0:06:51.602,0:06:55.002 Welcome to you, Ivan Pedersen. 0:06:55.002,0:07:03.260 Is it true that illegal file sharing and streaming from Danish IP addresses constitute 95 percent of all music traffic? 0:07:03.998,0:07:06.255 I reserve the right to wise up. 0:07:06.255,0:07:09.020 And I have really been taught a lesson these past few days. 0:07:09.020,0:07:15.005 The numbers used in my article 2 weeks ago turned out not to hold water. 0:07:15.005,0:07:21.057 They are three years old. I got those numbers where I normally obtain sober information, about the issues I talk about. 0:07:21.057,0:07:26.921 But I now understand that the 95% I used 0:07:26.921,0:07:34.565 in reality were numbers describing the global situation. And three years ago. 0:07:34.565,0:07:40.280 How does this affect the debate on illegal streaming and downloading of songs if 0:07:40.280,0:07:46.195 you publicly use very exaggerated numbers, which turn out not to be true? 0:07:46.508,0:07:49.358 It deals my opponents a stronger hand. 0:07:49.358,0:07:54.367 Obviously this is the last time that I - out of pure anger, 0:07:54.367,0:08:03.886 you know, passion-driven argumentation - use the latest figures I have been given, just because it fits my stuff. 0:08:03.886,0:08:06.814 Good. Let's get out the Detektor Truth-o-meter 0:08:06.814,0:08:09.023 We have one of those here in the Studio and you may try it. 0:08:09.054,0:08:11.262 Ivan Pedersen, as a spokesperson of DPA: 0:08:11.262,0:08:19.640 The statement that 95% of all danish music streaming and downloading is illegal 0:08:19.640,0:08:23.371 95% is false, right? 0:08:23.817,0:08:30.335 According to what I have been able to gather today, it's probably half of the traffic on the Internet 0:08:30.335,0:08:38.791 of music or other copyright-protected material, that happens without remunerating the creators and performers. 0:08:38.791,0:08:41.160 But the 95% - it is false? 0:08:41.160,0:08:42.522 Yes, it is false. 0:08:42.522,0:08:43.431 And yet you placed it ...? 0:08:43.431,0:08:45.785 No oo, what I have been TOLD is that it is false. 0:08:45.785,0:08:48.102 Strictly speaking, I cannnot know. I have been told that the figures are not accurate, 0:08:48.102,0:08:49.822 it is not the latest numbers. 0:08:49.822,0:08:51.960 So now that you have the opportunity and the possibility: 0:08:51.960,0:08:54.862 What would you write, if you were to rewrite your op-ed in Politiken [a danish daily]. 0:08:54.954,0:09:00.720 I'd write "a dramatically large proportion of the traffic of copyright-protected material 0:09:00.720,0:09:02.920 on Danish IP addresses, are not paid for". 0:09:02.920,0:09:05.080 Ivan Pedersen, thank you very much for being on the show. 0:09:05.080,0:09:06.692 You're most welcome! (laughs) 0:09:07.969,0:09:12.080 So far so good. But then there was the Trade Minister. 0:09:12.080,0:09:14.560 Who coined it this way: 0:09:14.560,0:09:18.800 I think it's 95% of the music that's downloaded on the net, 0:09:18.800,0:09:21.280 which is downloaded illegally. 0:09:21.280,0:09:27.800 In a § 20 questions in the danish Parliament, Stine Brix from Enhedslisten asked from where the Minister has her facts. 0:09:27.800,0:09:32.047 Pia Olsen Dyhr response to Stine Brix was that she received her information from IFPI, 0:09:32.047,0:09:35.280 and that she did not find any reason to doubt them. 0:09:37.049,0:09:42.626 How can you use three to four year-old figures on illegal music downloads? 0:09:42.811,0:09:48.017 It was the figure I was given prior to our consultation in the Committee for European Affairs 0:09:48.017,0:09:51.763 It's unfortunate that the figure is so old. 0:09:51.763,0:09:54.222 It is actually also a pity that the number is so much bigger, because it clouds 0:09:54.222,0:09:57.640 a debate that should be taken seriously. Namely that you're not allowed to download illegally on the Internet. 0:09:57.640,0:10:00.680 Just like you may not steal an orange in the supermarket 0:10:00.680,0:10:07.840 We know that there are too many who do it. Whether it's 28 or 95 percent or whatever it is. 0:10:07.840,0:10:09.840 It is still too many. 0:10:09.840,0:10:14.818 But what does it do to the debate whether it's 28% or 95% or somewhere in between? 0:10:14.818,0:10:18.600 It makes it blurred, because we need to have real numbers in debates. 0:10:18.600,0:10:20.440 I think that's very important, actually. 0:10:20.440,0:10:23.363 The Danish study that shows that half of all the music, 0:10:23.363,0:10:28.763 that's downloaded from the internet, has been paid for, is newer than the one from IFPI. 0:10:28.763,0:10:31.880 Why aren't you using a number like that instead? 0:10:31.880,0:10:34.360 First of all, because I did not know that number. That's fair and square. 0:10:34.360,0:10:37.880 Secondly, this number says nothing about how much is illegal. 0:10:37.880,0:10:40.840 Because we cannot necessarily conclude that the other half 0:10:40.840,0:10:42.880 is illegal downloading just because you haven't paid for it. 0:10:42.880,0:10:46.200 But it does, at the least, say that half is legal, 0:10:46.200,0:10:48.880 so it can't be more than half which is illegal. 0:10:48.880,0:10:51.138 I'm happy to use those numbers in the future. 0:10:51.280,0:10:53.960 Well, let's get out the Detektor truth-o-meter. 0:10:53.960,0:10:56.720 You may place the red dot yourself. 0:10:56.720,0:11:01.960 Is it true or false that 95% of all music downloads are illegal? 0:11:01.960,0:11:06.800 It was. after all, true in 2009, when this report was made. 0:11:06.800,0:11:09.960 But with the development I have seen, we must of course be moving towards here, 0:11:09.960,0:11:12.600 because, in reality, the numbers look differently today. 0:11:12.600,0:11:14.320 Pia Olsen Dyhr, thank you very much. 0:11:14.320,9:59:59.000 My pleasure.