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Emmanuel Pahud (Solo Flute) interviewed by Lydia Rilling

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    For years Carter hesitated to
    compose a work, a concerto,
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    for flute because he believed the flute
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    could not 'bring out the sharp attacks'
    he favoured in his compositions.
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    Now, he's written a flute concerto after all.
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    Emmanuel Pahud gave the
    work its world premiere
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    performance in September 2008
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    at the Jerusalem Chamber Music Festival.
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    Emmanuel Pahud, what kind
    of a work did Carter
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    compose for you?
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    Actually, when one is confronted
    with a composition that in 13 minutes
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    summarizes 100 years
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    plus perspectives looking
    back as well as forwards,
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    from the point of view of Elliott Carter.
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    It is a daunting task one is faced with
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    and looking at such music scores
    opens incredible worlds.
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    It's unbelievable how much one can define
    as a performer while sitting at a desk
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    not just by trying out the piece
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    on one's instrument and
    reading the score
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    but far more in the
    dialogue, the connection,
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    between the solo instrument
    and the orchestra
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    what worlds get opened up there.
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    And in this concerto, you recognize
    right at the start
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    that the flute suddenly fills the room
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    with an entire cloud of
    sounds, like sequins in the air.
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    These sounds are then
    repeated by the orchestra
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    and alternately by different
    groups of instruments
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    that react to each other and I too am
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    involved at this point and
    occasionally play sounds
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    that, in contrast to the sounds
    being played by other instruments
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    are picked up and
    emphasized by the orchestra.
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    That is, the notes played
    by the solo instrument,
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    the flute, are then
    sustained by the orchestra
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    as a kind of sound relief
    and from these sounds a harmony builds
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    and over and above this harmony,
    a solo flute voice develops
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    which leads to a wonderful Cantilena
    in the second part of the piece.
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    The piece is called a concerto
    for flute and orchestra,
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    but I would prefer to
    describe it as a nocturne
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    although it has the form of a concerto.
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    It's one long piece of music
    that's clearly divided
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    structurally into four
    different movements.
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    Just as with a symphony,
    with the first part
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    and then a middle, slower part,
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    that you could say is more of a song
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    then a third part where
    the cadence is free
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    and the flute starts out alone
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    and it is joined by other instruments,
    mainly the drum group
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    and then in the end a finale marked
    by a great deal of virtuosity
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    not only from the flute
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    but also from the violins
    and the other instruments of the orchestra.
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    What Elliott Carter borrowed
    from Stravinsky
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    was his decades-long intensive
    preoccupation with rhythm.
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    He not only wrote essays
    on the subject but
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    most of his work reflects
    this focus on rhythm.
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    What is it like in the Flute Concerto?
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    It isn't nearly so difficult from
    the point of view of rhythm
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    as in his earlier works
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    works from the 1970s and 80s when
    he's already well over 70 years of age.
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    The works are marked
    by an enormous level of complexity
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    but with age he seems to have
    acquired a certain wisdom
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    inasmuch as he played with
    complex rhythms a lot
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    where, for example a duet
    for flute and clarinet,
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    called 'Esprit Rude, Esprit Doux'
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    meaning 'Rough Spirit, Kind Spirit'
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    this piece was composed for
    Pierre Boulez sixtieth birthday.
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    In this piece there are
    just the two instruments
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    but they may never play together.
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    The piece is very very fast,
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    but when the clarinet plays
    five notes in a row
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    then the flute only plays four... or six and
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    the other way around as
    well, the entire time
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    and during a performance
    if you hear two sounds
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    played together then the
    performance has failed.
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    It's entirely different than playing Mozart
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    or Beethoven, where
    you hear immediately
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    that a mistake has been
    made when it's not together.
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    In this case it's just the opposite,
    which offers an interesting perspective
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    but it leads to the oddity that
    when a sound finally comes together
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    the audience or the
    musicians playing think
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    'finally' it's alright after all
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    but no, it's actually wrong.
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    None of that in the Flute Concerto
    nor in the Piano Concerto, the Dialogues.
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    It's well defined who has the lead role,
    the piano or the flute,
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    and the orchestra is in constant dialogue,
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    that is, we react to one
    another using the same material.
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    The rhythmic complexity is there during
    the entire development of the piece.
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    It appears in many different forms.
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    But Elliott Carter, unlike many other
    composers of the younger generation,
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    completely rejects special effects.
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    Because you can get a very
    sweet tone from the flute
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    but also very ugly sounds.
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    Or very windy or a very pizzicato-like sound
    using the tongue to make a popping sound.
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    Or a clapping type of sound,
    a percussive effect.
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    You have a lot of possibilities for effects
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    that you can breathe or
    blow into the instrument
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    that create other kinds noises,
    not to mention sounds.
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    But there's none of that with Elliott Carter.
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    He uses the flute... after
    the opening of the concerto
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    which is quite scattered almost chaotic
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    and this chaos slowly
    organizes itself into a kind of
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    musical language for all
    the performers on the stage.
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    And afterward there comes an almost
    neo-impressionistic musical language,
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    which is very suited to the flute,
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    especially since Debussy's
    orchestral works
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    or Ravel's orchestral works
    which have helped audiences
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    recognize the flute as
    that type of instrument.
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    After the intermission, we will hear the
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    Concerto for Piano and
    Ensemble, 'Dialogues'.
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    It was premiered in
    London in January 2004
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    and this evening's soloist also
    performed that world premiere.
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    You will be performing with the
    orchestra, playing the flute,
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    and you are familiar with the work.
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    The works are very similar in
    length and have a similar
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    ensemble of instruments,
    perhaps a little smaller.
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    What other similarities do
    you see in these two pieces?
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    These pieces are.....
    immediately recognizable
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    as works by the same composer...A.
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    and B. - they are in the same musical style.
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    Elliott Carter doesn't use any exotic
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    instruments such as
    drums, harp or keyboards
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    in the piano piece... because
    he already has a wonderful
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    percussion instrument, the piano itself.
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    After all, it is hammers that
    make the sound on the strings,
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    and depending how softly
    or strongly the notes
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    are struck an unbelievable
    palette of sounds unfolds.
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    Sometimes it sounds like Chopin
    and sometimes it sounds like Bernstein.
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    There's a Cantilena, but it
    isn't heard so much in the
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    solo Flute voice but rather
    from the English Horn
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    performed beautifully by Albrecht Mayer.
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    And this Dialogue takes place
    between
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    a solo instrument and the orchestra
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    but naturally with other ingredients.
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    Since a piano is not dealt
    with as a solo instrument
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    in the same manner as a flute.
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    As a result the entire cosmos,
    the entire constellation is there
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    but is seen from an entirely
    other point of view.
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    It is as if you were to see the sky
    in Berlin at midnight and then
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    a few hours later from Sydney.
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    You would see different constellations
    that belong to the same cosmos,
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    but you would be looking at them
    from another perspective.
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    In 1990 Elliott Carter composed a
    Trio with the beautiful name
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    'Con Leggerezza Pensosa',
    contemplative lightness.
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    Many of the works from
    the last two decades
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    of Carter's oeuvre merit
    similar-sounding names.
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    What about the two works that
    we'll be hearing this evening?
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    Lightness and thoughtfulness...
    but both together and linked
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    is an absolute key to
    understanding these works
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    as well as to performing these works.
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    There is a composer's note in the score
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    'giocoso' meaning 'playful'.
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    and there is another 'legerissimo' note
    toward the end of the Flute Concerto.
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    These notes recur quite often in the works.
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    as if to indicate a baroque
    treatment, a light and
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    decorative way of playing the piece.
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    It's an indicator of the playful way
    the composer sees his work.
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    Not taken too seriously,
    and not to be made too important.
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    It is naturally a sign of great maturity.
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    and I will try, even with my
    'relatively' advanced years
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    to adhere to the composer's notes.
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    You played the world
    premiere of these pieces
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    and now you're doing
    their European premiere.
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    You premiered the Flute Concerto
    of Marc-AndrĂŠ Dalbavie in 2006.
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    Just two examples of your commitment
    to contemporary classical music.
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    What is it that draws you
    so much to this music?
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    The music of Johann
    Sebastian Bach, of his sons,
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    from Mozart, Schubert and Beethoven
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    was at one time very
    new and revolutionary.
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    They were interested in new instruments.
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    And it has always been the same.
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    And it continues to be that way today.
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    The difference is that the composers also
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    performed their works on
    the piano or violin, or viola
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    or improvising during
    a concert performance
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    and then wrote out
    their compositions.
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    The ease with which a Mozart, for example,
    in just one night in Prague
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    composed his 'Don Giovanni' Overture
    just shortly before the dress rehearsal
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    is something that is reflected in the
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    hyperactivity of a
    composer like Elliott Carter.
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    I believe if people had
    complete freedom of choice
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    they would always take the works of
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    Matthias Pintscher, Elliott Carter
    or Pierre Boulez
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    or Marc-AndrĂŠ Dalbavie
    compose for example.
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    And I really hope that in 250 or 300 years
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    people will think about their
    works the way we think about
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    the works of Mozart or Bach.
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    That what the composers want to
    say with their works today
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    may be seen as visionary,
    and can't be understood
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    without some explanation.
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    But you do want a kind of guide.
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    This language has become established
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    and is fully integrated in the
    musical language of the classical world
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    as the natural further development
    of the musical language of Bach or Mozart
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    Schubert, Brahms, Mahler, Berg, Weber,
    and today... Carter.
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    When you're playing a new score that
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    no one else ever played before
    you, since it is a world premiere,
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    is there any particular
    difference to the manner
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    in which you prepare
    compared with 'old' works?
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    Absolutely, when you discover a new work,
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    it's really like going
    somewhere you've never been.
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    You have no idea when the ground
    might fall away beneath your feet,
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    or how the different performers
    react to one another.
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    Is there any kind of a cushion
    between the instruments?
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    You don't know if you'll get the feeling
    of being attacked around the next corner.
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    You have to be careful, especially
    on the lookout and respectful.
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    But once you've completely
    worked your way
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    through the piece for the first time
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    and you begin to review the piece
    for the second time,
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    it's a little like going into a museum
    and seeing a new work hanging there.
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    It was never hanging in that room
    before and now it's there.
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    The room feels completely different
    and you are initially irritated.
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    But then you look at the work a little more
    closely and get used to the new work
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    and you notice the texture of
    the work, how it's put together.
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    And taking a few steps back
    you look at the work from different angles.
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    And you notice 'aha, there's this aspect
    or that one...' this surface, this material.
  • 14:13 - 14:17
    And that's exactly how we approach
    a new musical work.
  • 14:17 - 14:21
    And the analysis of the work
    takes on a form, a structure of
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    one has to try to find the key
  • 14:24 - 14:26
    to how the work is put together
    it's like sentence structure
  • 14:26 - 14:29
    in order that it makes sense
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    it's all words following one anther
    that make sense in some way
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    and it's our job as performers
    to try to understand the composition
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    preferably without a
    phone call to the composer.
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    That's what I was about to ask,
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    the advantage of working on
    pieces from living composers
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    is naturally that you
    can ask composers questions.
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    Does it help to talk with the composer?
  • 14:53 - 15:02
    I don't like too many influences
    when I'm preparing a new work.
  • 15:02 - 15:10
    When a composer has reacted
    to a suggestion to create a piece,
  • 15:10 - 15:15
    or he approaches us himself
    with a piece he's composed
  • 15:15 - 15:18
    that's already quite a step.
  • 15:18 - 15:22
    But, then you have two
    different types of work,
  • 15:22 - 15:25
    the creator, the composer
    making his piece
  • 15:25 - 15:31
    and the performer who plays
    the music or reanimates it, so to speak,
  • 15:31 - 15:35
    those are two very different
    roles and I don't want
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    to have any limiting influence
    on creativity of the composer.
  • 15:41 - 15:47
    I think the burning idea,
    the cry that leads to the birth of the work,
  • 15:47 - 15:57
    is so very important for the whole world,
    but for me as a musician
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    it's the only way I can move ahead.
  • 16:00 - 16:04
    If I give a commission
    for a work to be composed,
  • 16:04 - 16:08
    tailor-made for me, then
    no one moves ahead.
  • 16:08 - 16:10
    It may be a personal 'tour-de-force' that
  • 16:10 - 16:14
    shows off my talents but
    it becomes self-serving,
  • 16:14 - 16:20
    and that isn't what musical
    creation is supposed to be about.
  • 16:20 - 16:22
    My job is to serve the composition as best
  • 16:22 - 16:26
    I can understand and
    interpret it to the world.
  • 16:26 - 16:34
    So a composer needs to know that
    as soon as he allows a work to be printed.
  • 16:34 - 16:39
    It belongs to the whole world and
    everyone can play it the way they'd like.
  • 16:39 - 16:42
    And it's like a newborn that
    begins to make its way
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    and master its own future.
Title:
Emmanuel Pahud (Solo Flute) interviewed by Lydia Rilling
Description:

Emmanuel Pahud war der Solist bei der europäischen Erstaufführung von Elliott Carters Flötenkonzert im Juni 2009. Am Pult der Berliner Philharmoniker stand Daniel Barenboim. In diesem Gespräch mit Lydia Rilling erläutert der Flötist seine Beziehung zu diesem Konzert und zu Carters Musik insgesamt
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Video Language:
German
Duration:
16:46

English, British subtitles

Revisions

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