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Are there rules for a debate? Because a political debate

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must not be polluted by certain stakeholders.

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- Are you talking about our debate or are you thinking about...?

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- No, not this one.

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- In a general sens?

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- Yes, on a general basis.

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- So in Athens, there was an assembly where all those who wanted

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could gather. So they were 30, 40, 50 thousand depending on the historical period.

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For example, they had the plague. 200 years is long so population changes and they didn't have population census.

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So it's an approximation that we have on the population of Athens. So they gathered

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and almost at every gathering, they were 6000. So that's quite an assembly.

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6000 with no microphone. 6000 and all keep quiet. Only one talks at a time.

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You don't debate. It's not when you are about to vote that you are going to debate. Here, you vote.

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It's not when you vote that you debate the laws you're about to vote. It's the preliminary work

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of those randomnly drawn. Those randomnly chosen prepared teh laxs. Then, we talked about it on the Agora to know

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what were these laws. Then came the moment where you had to go and vote. Spokesmen came

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to defend. Some preached in favor, others against, one at a time. And people listened.

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So if you wish, in the Athenian Assembly, you didn't have a debate. You had a serie of speaches

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one after the other and then you voted. The citizens were autonomous. That is they wrote by themselves,

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they votes by themselves the laws to which they consented. That was the "raison d'être", the justification

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of democracy. It wasn't to abolish social injustices of Athenians.

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I didn't read anything saying so, at least. Simply, after 800 years of tyranny

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that had touched their soul, they were fed up with tyrants. They wanted to imagine

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a regime of political equality. I haven't forgotten your objections

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but let's go through the schematic first. So in the schematic you have as

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leaflet, you have two parts: the top and the bottom one.

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So I'll project it on the wall in the same way so people can read it (otherwise it'll be too small)

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So I'll first talk about the top section, then

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the bottom section. It's better when it's large so people have an easier read.

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Is it working. Is the projector working? Yes. The center of the schematic is the objective

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of the Athenians. So I'll tell you what I read about the Athenians (and I read quite a lot about them).

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I'll give you a couple of sources. Amazing and delicious ones,

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but that's my opinion. Don't hold a grudge against me

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if I'm wrong. We can all make mistakes. Those who say they don't make mistakes

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are liars. I'm sincerly searching. If you show me where I'm mistaken, you can

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see me change and adapt. I don't care about being right. I'm trying to imagine

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with you a system that works, a pragmatic system. I'm not an idealist. Alright, a little,

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maybe. I'm not trying to build a dream. I'm searching for something sturdy

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that would be possible. If I said "this will never work", I wouldn't even do it.

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I wouldn't bother with all these efforts. Yes?

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- I've been following your actions over the years and I see an evolution. Since you say

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that you are searching, I feel that you are becoming more and more technical

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and less and less human. I mean...

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Amongst the 99%,

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you can be sure that 90% just really don't care.

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And even if you give them power, they won't want it.

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- I don't want to give them power. They must want it.

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- The poster idea, I've tried it. 99% of the people coming home don't read it

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or simply don't ask. And the 1% are just to be polite. So it really needs to be pragmatical.

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In my eyes, democracy works because it's easy: you go and vote

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once every five years and then you can just be mad about it all you want, no one cares.

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- You mean the representative government, not democracy?

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- Yes, yes, sorry. So it's all good and well to want something good.

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I feel like we are heading towards a system

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where it just asks too much out of people.

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- Yes, that's a real possibility.

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- And you'd need a different education than ours...

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- Couldn't we work on this... Sorry, what is your name?

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- Alexandre.

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- Alexandre. Couldn't we work on this as a team, Alex? I understand you clearly.

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The more I work on this, the more technical I become. I have so many things

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to say that it's just really long to explain. It becomes accessible only to people

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who have put themselves to work. And that's just not many. Maybe 10% of the population if you're optimistic.

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I agree with you. But at the same time, it's not a lost battle.

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But you shouldn't count only on me. I don't feel like I am a the guy

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who brings something. I am more the small rock, the small mechanism

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in a group. Maybe I have reached a level that I am no longer easy to access

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because it's just complicated, it scares people who discover it all. I hear you and understand you.

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It must be others than I, like an Alexandre or a Paul. And they are going to simplify it all.

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Paul made a website without telling me about it. He told me once it was finished.

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When I discovered it, I said: "It's great! It's fabulous what he did!"

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He made a web site called "www.le-message.org". I've put up some screenshots.

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It's just 5-6 fabulous pages. It's light, it's "Sugar free". He condensed very simply,

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all the conferences and the texts that he read.

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He thought hard to condense it. He must have had the same objection as you: "Too much stuff

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on the website of Chouard. It's too much, you just get drowned by it."

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"So what's important in there?" And he just kept the essential part to bring people

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to the root of causes, the constitutional process, the message. We'll be able to change everything if we

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gather an assembly. If we make the same representative government as today, but

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that we right the rules. Anyone but the professionals of politics. The same things

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as today but with counter-powers everywhere. Our initiative

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that will block the system when we're unhappy. Even that, Alexander, it's already worth it!

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It's an easy thing. And so that, he made it. On his website "www.le-message.org",

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you should go and see, there are five short points, each with a paragraph

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of a couple lines, really light, and every word counts. The words you need

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to understand the logic. Point 1, Point 2, Point 3, so what we need is:

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a constitutional process where there are no professional politicians.

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And for it to work, we need to be many to want this. And it will solve many problems,

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most social injustices will drop in front of our political power

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that has not yet been seen. The people have never seen their political power, their capacity

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to resist ecological catastrophy, to corruption and so on. Allowing us to obtain

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our political power will let us solve the problem. So "le-message" brings you

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quickly, with an explanation much easier than mine, to this conclusion.

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So could we not work as a team? That is that I continue to dig deeper on the subject,

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finding objections to make sure that the system is sturdy and that we haven't

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forgotten anything: A loop hole, a latent defect, something we've missed.

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What you've brought up, Alexandre, in your objection is:

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"I manage to convince 10%, which is slightly more than the 1% doing politics,

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but 90% just don't care. That's terrible!" 
Even when I try

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to talk to them, they say: "Talk to me about something else or I'll just leave,

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and I won't come back!" Alright, for this, I don't have a solution. But to me,

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the answer to this is that it's nothing new. It already existed in Athens. In Athens, at the assembly,

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you couldn't find the 30 or 40 thousand citizens. Only 6 thousand came.

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The others just didn't care! And still, it worked fine. If you are unhappy about something,

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you go to the assembly, you vote, you debate. If you're happy with how things are, you just don't go.

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Things will move on without you, but that's fine. What is important

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in democracy it that it works town by town. This is the scale of democracy.

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Where you were talking about the scale, it should be the scale of a town.

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And in every town, come who wants to come. You are right, we won't have

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assemblies of 30 thousand people. We won't fill a stadium each time. We'll have small assemblies

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of 6 to 10 thousand people if all goes well, if we organise things well. Yes?

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- Yes, just to point out that out of the 6000 assembled at the Agora,

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they renewed the pool quite often so you had a lot of new comers

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so there weren't 6000 who were passionate about the subject...

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- You had a lot more than that.

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- ... and the rest who just stayed put on the side line.

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- Yes, absolutely. To simplify things, I was just saying people didn't care

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and on voting day, 6000 were there, but you're correct when you point out

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that it wasn't always the same. They came because the subject was important for them.

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- But you need the means to analyse because nowadays, with our education,

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we don't obviously have the means to analyse.

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- You're correct. But here again, the answer is in the solution. That is that, as Tocqueville says,

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you can have a randomnly picked jury. That's a school of thought.

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It teaches us. As Aristotle used to say, the citizen learns how to be a citizen by practicing.

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Sometimes he is governed, sometimes he governs, and so on. That's what makes him fit.

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"Practice makes perfect." What's important in democracy is

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that since you want true equality, you need amateurism. Amateurism

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means not professional. In political philosophy, they consider

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that to build a ship, you need a skill,

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so they elect people that skill. To lead a war, you need a skill,

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so you elect your general who has that skill. To keep the books, you need a skill,

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to know how to count, so you elect your finance people. What the Athenians said

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and I beleive we could say this too: we shouldn't develop a complex about this point of view,

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because there are many experiences out there. In the book of Sintomer (remind me to talk about it later if I forget),

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there are many examples of the random draw / common lot that show

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that we are competent. The randomnly drawn people are competent.

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So what the Athenians said is: "To do politics, all are equal."

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You do not need skills, we have skills. We all have, because we are alive

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and we have a brain, skills. You just have to filter the insane. Look on your leaflet,

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and you see "docimasia". It's an exam you had to take. Not for your skills.

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They saw this like a bet. Not a bet, an axiom.

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We were democrates. So as first basis,

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as a central pillar, if you take it away, you take out democracy. So this pillar

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said: "We assume we are political equals." Not intellectual equals. Athenians

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knew that there were insane people, thieves and so on. So they didn't trust each other.

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They knew quite well that you had idiots or crooks.

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We are equal, they assumed. There are no "political" skills. You should read

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Castoriadis. Castoriadis plainly shows this. So if you will, the skill

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that you will need to deal with daily business, does any elected representative have it more than a randonmly drawn person?

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I don't think so! I am clearly opposed to that train of thought! If I tried to make a list

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of all the stupid things our elected representatives do all around the world, starting with declaring wars

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and atomic explosions to test the next awful weapons! And training our military forces

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with extravagant weaponry! All this is chosen by our elected representatives under the influence

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of our military. So when I make a list of all the awful mistakes that our elected representatives make,

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I'm not afraid of what randomnly drawn people will do. We'll have a hard time reaching such a rich prize list

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of mistakes! What makes the skill of an elected representative newly in power, a young one?

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Nothing, he's worthless! A young lawyer, alright, he might be a good lawyer. But he'll be awful

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concerning climate change, or on the topic of geostrategy or of ecology. He knows nothing about it! Nothing!

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What is going to give him the skill? And still, he'll become competent. How will he become competent?

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His work! He'll tackle a subject and he'll work on it. The randomnly drawn person,

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he'll do the same. Randonmly drawn people are not skilled.

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It'll scare you if you say: "You need a training".

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I recommend you to read Sintomer in a book called "The random draw,"

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and now in it's second edition, called "A small story of democratic experimentation".

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He explains random draw in Athens.

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It's interesting to see

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it in it's detailed daily mechanisms.

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It's interesting to see how it worked,

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and so how we could make it work, today.

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And then he explains the experiences of random draw / common lot,

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today, everywhere around the world.

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And you see that incompetent citizens...

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Wait a second, it's our elected representatives that say we are incompetent! That's upsetting!

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We aren't that incompetent!

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Who are you to say that we are incompetent?

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Don't beleive them. Don't beleive them. You'll see what citizen assemblies are capable of,

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"assemblies of incompetents"

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assemblies of people, in fact honest people

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who are randomnly drawn, who know nothing about the topic.

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But after having worked on the topic for six months, it's something else.

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You have three months, four months, five months to think about genetically modified organism (GMO)

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You'll listen to people from Monsanto,

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you'll make them come. You have money to do that.

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So you invite people from Monsanto and you'll ask them about GMOs

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You don't know anything about it at start. OK, that's true.

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But you'll ask them:

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"Explain to us why... because we've been asked if we are for or against GMOs.

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You seem to be for it: explain to us, Monsanto, why you would want GMOs."

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And Monsanto sends their experts to explain why.

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Then, these same "incompetents" know that the farmer confederation

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doesn't agree with GMOs.

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So they invite the people of the farmer confederation to come.

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And ask: "But why are you against GMOs?"

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And people of the farmer confederation explain.

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During this time, people listen all around.

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Other citizens, who aren't in the assembly, but who can listen.

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All these people listen and try to understand.

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Then they invite people from Bayer, another group like Monsanto,

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and ask: "Those guys told us that GMOs are..."

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Then Bayer responds with: "Yes, but they forgot to talk about this and that."

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Then you invite the peasants from latin America.

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We have money, remember, so we make them come.

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We ask: "You didn't have GMOs before. Explain to us why you wanted GMOs.

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You installed GMOs? Good. So how did it go?

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If you way the pros' and cons',

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what do you think about it? It's good? It's bad?"

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And the peasants of Latin America will explain.

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Then the "incompetents" invite the guys from Monsanto again, because

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they are "incompetents", but not insane and rather honest.

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So they want to know everything. They want to understand.

211
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So they heard Monsanto once. They heard the peasants once.

212
00:16:20,466 --> 00:16:23,345
They heard the opponents of GMOs once. But you need to be able to answer.

213
00:16:23,345 --> 00:16:26,178
So they invite Monsanto again:

214
00:16:26,178 --> 00:16:28,036
"They told us this and that. What do you say about it?"

215
00:16:28,036 --> 00:16:29,940
And people from Monsanto answer.

216
00:16:29,940 --> 00:16:33,051
After six months, those people are more competent than anybody.

217
00:16:33,051 --> 00:16:35,187
And it's still people like you and me.

218
00:16:35,187 --> 00:16:38,949
You really must read it. It'll give you confidence.

219
00:16:38,949 --> 00:16:45,033
There are many stories of randomnly picked assemblies of so called "incompetents"

220
00:16:45,033 --> 00:16:48,423
who, through their work, become very competent

221
00:16:48,423 --> 00:16:50,791
and most of all, uninterested,

222
00:16:50,791 --> 00:16:55,435
honest, very hard to influence by the lobbies because they owe nothing to no one.

223
00:16:55,435 --> 00:16:58,547
Why is an elected representative corruptible?

224
00:16:58,547 --> 00:17:00,683
He has debts.

225
00:17:00,683 --> 00:17:03,376
He has power because someone financed his election campaign.

226
00:17:03,376 --> 00:17:05,002
I'm not talking about small representatives.

227
00:17:05,002 --> 00:17:08,810
Small ones can be elected because in a town, you are elected

228
00:17:08,810 --> 00:17:10,992
because people know you. They know you for being someone good.

229
00:17:10,992 --> 00:17:12,804
And you won't win much anyhow.

230
00:17:12,804 --> 00:17:17,122
You often see a lot of loyalty & devotion in the elected representatives of small towns.

231
00:17:17,122 --> 00:17:19,677
I'm not saying they are all rotten,

232
00:17:19,677 --> 00:17:24,088
not at all. But when you change the size and you put at nation level

233
00:17:24,088 --> 00:17:28,082
or more so, European level, and worse, world level,

234
00:17:28,082 --> 00:17:31,287
when you need to finance an election campaign

235
00:17:31,287 --> 00:17:32,773
to win an election of that level,

236
00:17:32,773 --> 00:17:37,277
all the elected representatives are in debt towards those who financed their campaign.

237
00:17:37,277 --> 00:17:39,274
Those who financed elections aren't philanthropists.

238
00:17:39,274 --> 00:17:41,457
That's just untrue. Completly untrue.

239
00:17:41,457 --> 00:17:43,036
They do it because they want favors in return.

240
00:17:43,036 --> 00:17:46,194
So when elected representatives talk about GMOs,

241
00:17:46,194 --> 00:17:49,352
they are very dependent of those who financed his election.

242
00:17:49,352 --> 00:17:52,231
If amongst those who financed the election, you have Monsanto,

243
00:17:52,231 --> 00:17:55,389
pharmaceutical labs, like Big Pharma, your elected representatives

244
00:17:55,389 --> 00:18:00,358
might be competent, well it's worst

245
00:18:00,358 --> 00:18:01,705
because they are dishonest.

246
00:18:01,705 --> 00:18:03,562
If you have competence and dishonesty...

247
00:18:03,562 --> 00:18:05,374
- They are in conflict of interest.

248
00:18:05,374 --> 00:18:07,463
- They are in conflict of interest and it's a catastrophy.

249
00:18:07,463 --> 00:18:10,203
So concerning your objection on skill,

250
00:18:10,203 --> 00:18:15,497
and I have other arguments to refute it, but you can see that it doesn't resist analysis. Yes?

251
00:18:15,497 --> 00:18:19,120
- Concerning what you've been saying,

252
00:18:19,120 --> 00:18:21,256
the guy who's picked at random

253
00:18:21,256 --> 00:18:22,789
can also be bought out by Monsanto

254
00:18:22,789 --> 00:18:24,785
or bought out by the farmer confederation.

255
00:18:24,785 --> 00:18:27,293
- I really must answer that objection since it keeps coming back.

256
00:18:27,293 --> 00:18:29,615
- It's not that but...

257
00:18:29,615 --> 00:18:32,773
- Let us imagine that the random guy picked is you.

258
00:18:32,773 --> 00:18:33,702
- Yes.

259
00:18:33,702 --> 00:18:36,353
- Or me... I don't owe anything to anyone.

260
00:18:36,353 --> 00:18:39,491
I've been picked. Monsanto comes along to try and corrupt me.

261
00:18:39,491 --> 00:18:41,682
Just see the ruckus that I'll raise at the assembly

262
00:18:41,682 --> 00:18:44,308
when I say: "Hey! Monsanto is trying to corrupt me!"

263
00:18:44,308 --> 00:18:45,980
Because if I don't owe anything to anyone,

264
00:18:45,980 --> 00:18:48,070
it's a lot harder to corrupt me.

265
00:18:48,070 --> 00:18:50,531
It's a lot harder to corrupt someone who doesn't owe anything.

266
00:18:50,531 --> 00:18:54,107
Let us say it the other way around:

267
00:18:54,107 --> 00:18:58,054
it's a lot easier to corrupt someone who owes you something.

268
00:18:58,054 --> 00:19:00,980
And with an election on a large scale

269
00:19:00,980 --> 00:19:06,739
that mecanically puts the elected representative and the candidate for the next election

270
00:19:06,739 --> 00:19:10,593
on a corruptible level. He's drugged with power, he'll ask for it again.

271
00:19:10,593 --> 00:19:12,729
You put him in a dependency situation

272
00:19:12,729 --> 00:19:15,098
towards his sponsors

273
00:19:15,098 --> 00:19:17,188
and towards his political party

274
00:19:17,188 --> 00:19:19,742
who also has the same financial sponsors.

275
00:19:19,742 --> 00:19:21,599
You must understand that those people

276
00:19:21,599 --> 00:19:24,664
are absolutely not independent intellectually.

277
00:19:24,664 --> 00:19:26,383
They can be friendly and nice at start.

278
00:19:26,383 --> 00:19:29,169
The mechanism of the election will corrupt them.

279
00:19:29,169 --> 00:19:30,702
I don't hold a grudge against them for it.

280
00:19:30,702 --> 00:19:32,977
I'm just saying it's not the right system.

281
00:19:32,977 --> 00:19:35,810
I need to answer

282
00:19:35,810 --> 00:19:38,086
to the two, three strong objections you've made

283
00:19:38,086 --> 00:19:39,293
when you say:

284
00:19:39,293 --> 00:19:41,569
"He may well be randomnly picked but he's corruptible."

285
00:19:41,569 --> 00:19:44,680
He's corruptible, but of course he is!

286
00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:47,049
Athenians knew he was.

287
00:19:47,049 --> 00:19:49,649
I'm not saying he's incorruptible, I'm saying he's harder to corrupt.

288
00:19:49,649 --> 00:19:53,271
But most of all... Wait, let me move forward.

289
00:19:53,271 --> 00:19:55,361
Tac! That's really great!

290
00:19:55,361 --> 00:19:56,104
It's modern and all.

291
00:19:56,104 --> 00:19:58,055
Here I go up, and here down. OK.

292
00:19:58,055 --> 00:20:02,141
Down again... Day, Night. Like in "Mr. Bean".

293
00:20:02,141 --> 00:20:05,810
All you see hear are controls.

294
00:20:05,810 --> 00:20:08,550
That's to show how randomnly picked people weren't trusted!

295
00:20:08,550 --> 00:20:10,547
They were pragmatic about it.

296
00:20:10,547 --> 00:20:15,005
They weren't utopists or idealists.

297
00:20:15,005 --> 00:20:17,420
They knew well enough that amongst random people

298
00:20:17,420 --> 00:20:18,999
you could have awful people.

299
00:20:18,999 --> 00:20:20,764
So they put a lot of control measures.

300
00:20:20,764 --> 00:20:22,993
You had controls before the mandate,

301
00:20:22,993 --> 00:20:25,083
after the mandate and even during the mandate.

302
00:20:25,083 --> 00:20:27,916
Our elected representatives today have no controlling measures.

303
00:20:27,916 --> 00:20:28,659
There: Zero.

304
00:20:28,659 --> 00:20:30,563
Zero.

305
00:20:30,563 --> 00:20:31,863
The small control

306
00:20:31,863 --> 00:20:33,256
that is present with elected representatives is:

307
00:20:33,256 --> 00:20:34,975
maybe you won't be reelected.

308
00:20:34,975 --> 00:20:38,875
But if you're not reelected...

309
00:20:38,875 --> 00:20:40,408
You know what they did?

310
00:20:40,408 --> 00:20:43,055
They voted an income,

311
00:20:43,055 --> 00:20:45,331
an unemployment income.

312
00:20:45,331 --> 00:20:48,117
When you're fired, you're paid (as elected representative). How long?

313
00:20:48,117 --> 00:20:49,417
Just guess.

314
00:20:49,417 --> 00:20:52,343
- Five years. -Five years! Yes ! It's true.

315
00:20:52,343 --> 00:20:55,501
Do you realise why we can't let them write such things?

316
00:20:55,501 --> 00:20:58,752
Parlementarians wrote the rules

317
00:20:58,752 --> 00:21:02,142
that let them be payed when they are elected,

318
00:21:02,142 --> 00:21:05,950
and when they are rejected because they betrayed their promises

319
00:21:05,950 --> 00:21:07,018
and they are not reelected,

320
00:21:07,018 --> 00:21:09,340
they still get payed until the next election!

321
00:21:09,340 --> 00:21:11,430
Because the current elected one is going to lie as well.

322
00:21:11,430 --> 00:21:13,938
So they thought of a system to keep on living on our behalf.

323
00:21:13,938 --> 00:21:16,678
It's really on our behalf because they don't work for us anymore.

324
00:21:16,678 --> 00:21:19,418
And when the current one gets kicked because he betrayed us,

325
00:21:19,418 --> 00:21:21,507
and we have the choice between two, that's it.

326
00:21:21,507 --> 00:21:24,387
Left and right wing. Both are the same in that matter.

327
00:21:24,387 --> 00:21:27,452
In England, you also have two parties. In the USA, you have two parties.

328
00:21:27,452 --> 00:21:31,074
It's a mafia system that is taking over all around the world.

329
00:21:31,074 --> 00:21:33,721
As if it were perfectly natural for them to be there.

330
00:21:33,721 --> 00:21:35,486
What could you possible do smarter?

331
00:21:35,486 --> 00:21:38,551
When this one gets fired, he still gets paid

332
00:21:38,551 --> 00:21:41,569
and he'll come back in office at the next go. That's a part time job on average!

333
00:21:41,569 --> 00:21:43,520
But with this unemployment income, they're paid full time.

334
00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:47,049
Today, we don't have any control concerning our elected representatives.

335
00:21:47,049 --> 00:21:48,024
No control at all.

336
00:21:48,024 --> 00:21:51,090
Here you had only the volunteers. So it's a filter.

337
00:21:51,090 --> 00:21:54,294
Those who didn't beleive they were capable didn't come.

338
00:21:54,294 --> 00:21:55,966
That's a reassuring filter.

339
00:21:55,966 --> 00:21:58,706
The guy who knows he can't or who doesn't care

340
00:21:58,706 --> 00:22:03,210
or he gets angry for nothing or which ever reason: he's filtering himself out.

341
00:22:03,210 --> 00:22:06,554
I'm going quickly but it would be worth spending time on this issue.

342
00:22:06,554 --> 00:22:08,922
But I'm going quickly so I can respond to all your objections.

343
00:22:08,922 --> 00:22:12,545
You had the docimasia which was an exam to filter out the insane.

344
00:22:12,545 --> 00:22:15,470
Real insanity. And then you had criterias.

345
00:22:15,470 --> 00:22:17,003
We should also think about criterias

346
00:22:17,003 --> 00:22:19,836
to know who would be allowed for random picking, who we accept as representative.

347
00:22:19,836 --> 00:22:24,666
Remember that these representatives don't vote the laws.

348
00:22:24,666 --> 00:22:28,334
The goal is not: "They'll vote my laws!". Not at all, you will vote your laws.

349
00:22:28,334 --> 00:22:31,260
Simply because you have randomnly picked representatives.

350
00:22:31,260 --> 00:22:34,743
They will be weakened by this random draw. They will be controlled at every stage.

351
00:22:34,743 --> 00:22:40,130
Because of this random draw and weakening, you will decide.

352
00:22:40,130 --> 00:22:43,752
Don't be afraid of the awful guy! He might still do his job badly here and there

353
00:22:43,752 --> 00:22:47,282
but he'll have very little power. Representatives will be controlled.

354
00:22:47,282 --> 00:22:50,811
They won't have much power, not for a long period and never twice in a row!

355
00:22:50,811 --> 00:22:53,505
And they'll be controlled, again and again and again.

356
00:22:53,505 --> 00:22:57,127
There is nothing to fear in the random draw/common lot, if you think it through.

357
00:22:57,127 --> 00:23:01,678
When you discover it, you don't know how it works.

358
00:23:01,678 --> 00:23:05,718
You think: "Randomly picking someone!" and you imagine the same awful people as we have today.

359
00:23:05,718 --> 00:23:09,852
"The little control we do have, we'll lose it

360
00:23:09,852 --> 00:23:12,638
to just any random guy!" That's just a misunderstanding.

361
00:23:12,638 --> 00:23:15,749
That's not it. Democracy, it's not the same system than what we have today,

362
00:23:15,749 --> 00:23:17,979
plus random draw/common lot. That's not it.

363
00:23:17,979 --> 00:23:26,152
Democracy is we vote our laws ourselves.

364
00:23:26,152 --> 00:23:28,660
There are things we can't do:

365
00:23:28,660 --> 00:23:30,517
we can't prepare the laws because we're just too many.

366
00:23:30,517 --> 00:23:33,072
So we let a Counsel of Five Hundred randomnly picked prepare the laws.

367
00:23:33,072 --> 00:23:36,276
They had a Counsel of Five Hundred randomnly picked who prepared the laws, discussed them.

368
00:23:36,276 --> 00:23:40,316
Mind you, nothing stopped us from participating as well. Then we voted the laws.

369
00:23:40,316 --> 00:23:42,452
So we need a Counsel of Five Hundred.

370
00:23:42,452 --> 00:23:44,171
Randomnly picked people to prepare the laws.

371
00:23:44,171 --> 00:23:47,747
Then you need other randomnly picked people to apply the law.

372
00:23:47,747 --> 00:23:52,948
Judges were randomnly picked. Policemen were randomnly picked.

373
00:23:52,948 --> 00:23:57,127
Policemen were randomnly picked. Not a bad idea ey?

374
00:23:57,127 --> 00:24:02,329
Judges randomnly picked. They don't form a corp, a body, as Robespierre said.

375
00:24:02,329 --> 00:24:05,440
That is: it's not always the same people who are armed, who could fire,

376
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,150
who were unpunished, who were protected. Not always the same ones.

377
00:24:08,150 --> 00:24:10,751
You're a judge then a year later, you're no longer a judge.

378
00:24:10,751 --> 00:24:16,741
At the end of your judge mandate, you are held accountable and you might well be punished. Punished!

379
00:24:16,741 --> 00:24:18,320
Severly punished. How will you be held accountable?

380
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:22,871
You will show what you did in front of a tribunal of 200 randomnly drawn people.

381
00:24:22,871 --> 00:24:25,472
This surrender was part of taking care of democracy.

382
00:24:25,472 --> 00:24:30,070
You had to show your results. You were a volunteer, randomnly picked,

383
00:24:30,070 --> 00:24:34,806
and the job wasn't sleeping in the shade. You weren't paid 60 000€ / month even

384
00:24:34,806 --> 00:24:36,943
if you never came to the assembly.

385
00:24:36,943 --> 00:24:39,915
You had to work, to show results and if you did a bad job, you might be put to death at the end.

386
00:24:39,915 --> 00:24:45,255
So you had to be careful. So why did they volunteer? Because people knew what the greater good was.

387
00:24:45,255 --> 00:24:47,345
It worked that way and you had the approval of others,

388
00:24:47,345 --> 00:24:52,593
you had "verēcundia", shame. The one who served well his city,

389
00:24:52,593 --> 00:24:56,401
he got a pantheon built for him. He received an arc of triomph.

390
00:24:56,401 --> 00:25:00,820
He received all the honors, he was treated much better. People can be driven by appraisal

391
00:25:00,820 --> 00:25:05,938
and we always will. Only insane people are driven by money

392
00:25:05,938 --> 00:25:09,421
and only money. So they take care of the greater good and are capable

393
00:25:09,421 --> 00:25:12,394
of doing things well just because they get 1 million euro per year?

394
00:25:12,394 --> 00:25:14,483
Very few people work with that as incentive.

395
00:25:14,483 --> 00:25:17,641
- You were talking about anachronism before, so when you say

396
00:25:17,641 --> 00:25:20,149
random draw / common lot, it was in a certain context at a certain time period.

397
00:25:20,149 --> 00:25:23,353
Maybe, for our age, we should talk of something else than the random draw.

398
00:25:23,353 --> 00:25:24,143
- Maybe...

399
00:25:24,143 --> 00:25:29,114
- It's ethics. Random draw, nowadays, it's a bit like a going to a casino...

400
00:25:29,114 --> 00:25:37,632
- It'll ask quite a lot of effort, I know that it's a big effort.

401
00:25:37,632 --> 00:25:41,334
- In a court room, it's not the same scale, but

402
00:25:41,334 --> 00:25:43,238
people are randomnly picked.

403
00:25:43,238 --> 00:25:48,160
- Today, in some courts, juries are randomnly picked and they can send people to jail for life.

404
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:52,990
And it works fine. It's something very important.

405
00:25:52,990 --> 00:25:55,823
It changes people.

406
00:25:55,823 --> 00:25:58,795
- Theoretically it works fine but even without considering awful people being

407
00:25:58,795 --> 00:26:04,972
randmonly picked, as you say, each of us can be influenced

408
00:26:04,972 --> 00:26:12,681
by financial pressures, social pressure, professional, etc.

409
00:26:12,681 --> 00:26:17,975
Each of us, we know this, has pressure points. Sometimes, in the court room

410
00:26:17,975 --> 00:26:23,037
you get juries out of the population who are random, yes, but with no skills...

411
00:26:23,037 --> 00:26:23,826
- Absolutly

412
00:26:23,826 --> 00:26:28,191
- ...and without the means to defend against these kind of pressures.

413
00:26:28,191 --> 00:26:40,730
It's a bit sad to think that we have to pay our representatives

414
00:26:40,730 --> 00:26:45,328
but you know we started paying our representatives, our MPs

415
00:26:45,328 --> 00:26:48,671
our mayors, to avoid the fact that they become subject to those kind of pressures.

416
00:26:48,671 --> 00:26:49,972
- Corrupt.

417
00:26:49,972 --> 00:26:53,130
- to financial pressures first but also to avoid the fact

418
00:26:53,130 --> 00:26:59,492
that those who could play that role were already ones with a large income.

419
00:26:59,492 --> 00:27:03,207
- Of course. What is your name?

420
00:27:03,207 --> 00:27:04,693
- It's Alain.

421
00:27:04,693 --> 00:27:09,987
- Alain, I completly agree with you. We should pay our MPs.

422
00:27:09,987 --> 00:27:13,517
If it's a democracy, it won't be our MPs anymore because it will be us instead

423
00:27:13,517 --> 00:27:18,207
who'll vote the laws. It will be our policemen, our judges, our civil workers.

424
00:27:18,207 --> 00:27:20,901
It's the people we need, tha the assembly needs

425
00:27:20,901 --> 00:27:29,213
to do the things it can't do. But Alain, I know it won't be perfect.

426
00:27:29,213 --> 00:27:33,579
Yes, there will be possibility for corruption, but drasticly reduced.

427
00:27:33,579 --> 00:27:40,359
Don't give up on a system where we would be much more protected

428
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:44,910
against abuse of power and injustice, just because it won't be perfect.

429
00:27:44,910 --> 00:27:49,647
Yes, risks of corruption will remain, but you'll have less of it.

430
00:27:49,647 --> 00:27:55,266
Do realise that right now, those who took the power after the French Revolution...

431
00:27:55,266 --> 00:28:01,211
For me, this has been going on for a long time. You keep on finding them. Since 1789, you find

432
00:28:01,211 --> 00:28:06,691
the ultra-rich, the 1%, who decide if it will rain or shine, who decide wars, injustice,

433
00:28:06,691 --> 00:28:11,752
who have made this unfair right called capitalism. Because it is a right.

434
00:28:11,752 --> 00:28:15,978
It's the right of the owner on the workers. And this is made possible

435
00:28:15,978 --> 00:28:20,715
only because the rich have succeeded. Never before had they been able to in human history.

436
00:28:20,715 --> 00:28:25,127
You must understant that before, it wasn't grand, you still had abuse of power, but the rich

437
00:28:25,127 --> 00:28:30,375
had to share power before 1789. The rich had to share power with the nobles,

438
00:28:30,375 --> 00:28:32,325
with the clergy, with the king.

439
00:28:32,325 --> 00:28:35,715
- You're idealising a bit, I beleive, what was going on before the French Revolution.

440
00:28:35,715 --> 00:28:36,505
- Not at all!

441
00:28:36,505 --> 00:28:41,428
- That is that a royalty, that you pointed out earlier, could be a solution.

442
00:28:41,428 --> 00:28:44,585
I don't regret royalty.

443
00:28:44,585 --> 00:28:47,233
- Me neither, me neither. It was a provocation to show you that I am open.

444
00:28:47,233 --> 00:28:51,133
- In the same maner, you have taken as example

445
00:28:51,133 --> 00:28:57,496
the swiss peoples' initiative referendum. For me, the swiss system, the way the Swiss live,

446
00:28:57,496 --> 00:29:02,697
for the majority of the Swiss, with the power of the actual banks, the role of the banks

447
00:29:02,697 --> 00:29:05,019
in the 30's and 40's with Germany...

448
00:29:05,019 --> 00:29:05,855
- Wasn't honorable.

449
00:29:05,855 --> 00:29:07,062
- I don't regret that.

450
00:29:07,062 --> 00:29:08,641
- I don't want to take it as example. Yes, I agree with you.

451
00:29:08,641 --> 00:29:09,895
- But you talked about Switzerland.

452
00:29:09,895 --> 00:29:13,982
- Yes, but I never finished my example. I talked about Switzerland because...

453
00:29:13,982 --> 00:29:20,391
I forgot to tell you that while the French were being destroyed, Alain,

454
00:29:20,391 --> 00:29:24,013
and you do well to remind me in this, because I forgot

455
00:29:24,013 --> 00:29:27,589
and it's important so that you understand why I was talking about Switzerland.

456
00:29:27,589 --> 00:29:31,908
While the French were getting their pensions destroyed without any mean to resist it,

457
00:29:31,908 --> 00:29:37,063
during that time, the same year, last year, the Swiss parlementarians also

458
00:29:37,063 --> 00:29:45,654
voted to degrade the Swiss pensions. In the weeks that followed, the Swiss started

459
00:29:45,654 --> 00:29:52,109
a peoples' initiative referendum that succeeded and they abrogated those laws.

460
00:29:52,109 --> 00:29:58,332
Pay attention to this, please. I'm not saying that the Swiss are a model, that's not it.

461
00:29:58,332 --> 00:30:03,766
It's like athenian democracy, it's not a model. I say like Castoriadis

462
00:30:03,766 --> 00:30:09,663
that in the athenian democracy, there is a seed, there is something interesting. I won't take it all.

463
00:30:09,663 --> 00:30:15,747
You see what I mean? In the case of Switzerland, there are things that disgust me.

464
00:30:15,747 --> 00:30:19,973
But there are also interesting things. I have discernment, that is

465
00:30:19,973 --> 00:30:27,032
that I don't throw away the whole swiss example because there are some things I don't appreciate. I sort things,

466
00:30:27,032 --> 00:30:31,722
I distinguist and say: "Hey, that's good! This I want!" And there I say: "Slavery I don't like,

467
00:30:31,722 --> 00:30:39,338
Phallocracy, I'm not interested, brutality, death penalty, I don't want it." However,

468
00:30:39,338 --> 00:30:47,976
desynchronising economical power from political power, Alain, that should

469
00:30:47,976 --> 00:30:54,896
still interest you! Even if you take marxist ideas, or experiences on ideas that Marx had,

470
00:30:54,896 --> 00:30:59,633
no one ever succeeded to desynchronise political power

471
00:30:59,633 --> 00:31:11,960
from economical power. Here, they managed it for over 200 years. That's just sexy! At least attractive.

472
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:16,183
Well sexy, attractive, I mean...no ? It's not ? You don't think it is?

473
00:31:16,183 --> 00:31:17,762
- It's more sexy than the power of the banks over us at least.

474
00:31:17,762 --> 00:31:18,737
- Yes!

475
00:31:18,737 --> 00:31:21,988
- It's still the same families that held the power for 200 years.

476
00:31:21,988 --> 00:31:23,845
- Not at all! On this, you are wrong.

477
00:31:23,845 --> 00:31:29,697
- I'm not talking about political power, I'm talking about economical persons and finance people.

478
00:31:29,697 --> 00:31:35,042
- You should let other people talk...

479
00:31:35,042 --> 00:31:41,835
- In Athens, Alain, I insist on this, and maybe I'm wrong, but here

480
00:31:41,835 --> 00:31:45,736
is a point that is a fact. We don't have to quibble over this.

481
00:31:45,736 --> 00:31:53,398
This is a fact. Plato, Aristotle and the others complained

482
00:31:53,398 --> 00:31:57,856
all their lives about this government led by the poor. Don't tell me the rich ruled.

483
00:31:57,856 --> 00:32:00,550
It's not true, I won't beleive it. This is stricly facts.

484
00:32:00,550 --> 00:32:03,522
- What I'm saying is that you're not questioning the wealth of certain (very few) people

485
00:32:03,522 --> 00:32:06,308
and the poverty of the vast majority.

486
00:32:06,308 --> 00:32:08,212
- Wait. Wealth isn't happiness.

487
00:32:08,212 --> 00:32:13,321
- That's what the rich say. Be poor! Wealth isn't happiness.

488
00:32:13,321 --> 00:32:14,296
To me it is.

489
00:32:14,296 --> 00:32:19,730
- That's total dogmatism. It's a closed point of view.

490
00:32:19,730 --> 00:32:22,748
- Alain, I'm sure that...

491
00:32:22,748 --> 00:32:26,045
- We're not being emphatical here. It's a pure conflict.

492
00:32:26,045 --> 00:32:31,340
- Just one second, some has been very patient there, sitting in the middle.