0:00:36.804,0:00:40.937 Are there rules for a debate? Because a political debate 0:00:40.937,0:00:45.868 must not be polluted by certain stakeholders. 0:00:45.868,0:00:48.238 - Are you talking about our debate or are you thinking about...? 0:00:48.238,0:00:49.167 - No, not this one. 0:00:49.167,0:00:50.792 - In a general sens? 0:00:50.792,0:00:51.767 - Yes, on a general basis. 0:00:51.767,0:00:57.805 - So in Athens, there was an assembly where all those who wanted 0:00:57.805,0:01:01.334 could gather. So they were 30, 40, 50 thousand depending on the historical period. 0:01:01.334,0:01:05.189 For example, they had the plague. 200 years is long so population changes and they didn't have population census. 0:01:05.189,0:01:11.404 So it's an approximation that we have on the population of Athens. So they gathered 0:01:11.404,0:01:17.560 and almost at every gathering, they were 6000. So that's quite an assembly. 0:01:17.560,0:01:25.222 6000 with no microphone. 6000 and all keep quiet. Only one talks at a time. 0:01:25.222,0:01:30.888 You don't debate. It's not when you are about to vote that you are going to debate. Here, you vote. 0:01:30.888,0:01:35.950 It's not when you vote that you debate the laws you're about to vote. It's the preliminary work 0:01:35.950,0:01:44.031 of those randomnly drawn. Those randomnly chosen prepared teh laxs. Then, we talked about it on the Agora to know 0:01:44.031,0:01:48.117 what were these laws. Then came the moment where you had to go and vote. Spokesmen came 0:01:48.117,0:01:53.504 to defend. Some preached in favor, others against, one at a time. And people listened. 0:01:53.504,0:01:59.216 So if you wish, in the Athenian Assembly, you didn't have a debate. You had a serie of speaches 0:01:59.216,0:02:05.579 one after the other and then you voted. The citizens were autonomous. That is they wrote by themselves, 0:02:05.579,0:02:13.381 they votes by themselves the laws to which they consented. That was the "raison d'être", the justification 0:02:13.381,0:02:18.164 of democracy. It wasn't to abolish social injustices of Athenians. 0:02:18.164,0:02:25.316 I didn't read anything saying so, at least. Simply, after 800 years of tyranny 0:02:25.316,0:02:30.610 that had touched their soul, they were fed up with tyrants. They wanted to imagine 0:02:30.610,0:02:35.068 a regime of political equality. I haven't forgotten your objections 0:02:35.068,0:02:38.445 but let's go through the schematic first. So in the schematic you have as 0:02:38.445,0:02:43.694 leaflet, you have two parts: the top and the bottom one. 0:02:43.694,0:02:49.313 So I'll project it on the wall in the same way so people can read it (otherwise it'll be too small) 0:02:49.313,0:02:52.239 So I'll first talk about the top section, then 0:02:52.239,0:02:56.790 the bottom section. It's better when it's large so people have an easier read. 0:02:56.790,0:03:04.731 Is it working. Is the projector working? Yes. The center of the schematic is the objective 0:03:04.731,0:03:09.700 of the Athenians. So I'll tell you what I read about the Athenians (and I read quite a lot about them). 0:03:09.700,0:03:12.858 I'll give you a couple of sources. Amazing and delicious ones, 0:03:12.858,0:03:18.152 but that's my opinion. Don't hold a grudge against me 0:03:18.152,0:03:22.517 if I'm wrong. We can all make mistakes. Those who say they don't make mistakes 0:03:22.517,0:03:28.508 are liars. I'm sincerly searching. If you show me where I'm mistaken, you can 0:03:28.508,0:03:35.103 see me change and adapt. I don't care about being right. I'm trying to imagine 0:03:35.103,0:03:40.861 with you a system that works, a pragmatic system. I'm not an idealist. Alright, a little, 0:03:40.861,0:03:46.016 maybe. I'm not trying to build a dream. I'm searching for something sturdy 0:03:46.016,0:03:50.706 that would be possible. If I said "this will never work", I wouldn't even do it. 0:03:50.706,0:03:54.840 I wouldn't bother with all these efforts. Yes? 0:03:54.840,0:03:59.437 - I've been following your actions over the years and I see an evolution. Since you say 0:03:59.437,0:04:01.945 that you are searching, I feel that you are becoming more and more technical 0:04:01.945,0:04:05.567 and less and less human. I mean... 0:04:05.567,0:04:10.980 Amongst the 99%, 0:04:10.980,0:04:14.278 you can be sure that 90% just really don't care. 0:04:14.278,0:04:18.086 And even if you give them power, they won't want it. 0:04:18.086,0:04:21.151 - I don't want to give them power. They must want it. 0:04:21.151,0:04:26.073 - The poster idea, I've tried it. 99% of the people coming home don't read it 0:04:26.073,0:04:32.018 or simply don't ask. And the 1% are just to be polite. So it really needs to be pragmatical. 0:04:32.018,0:04:35.826 In my eyes, democracy works because it's easy: you go and vote 0:04:35.826,0:04:40.238 once every five years and then you can just be mad about it all you want, no one cares. 0:04:40.238,0:04:42.745 - You mean the representative government, not democracy? 0:04:42.745,0:04:48.504 - Yes, yes, sorry. So it's all good and well to want something good. 0:04:48.504,0:04:53.566 I feel like we are heading towards a system 0:04:53.566,0:04:55.609 where it just asks too much out of people. 0:04:55.609,0:04:56.724 - Yes, that's a real possibility. 0:04:56.724,0:04:59.232 - And you'd need a different education than ours... 0:04:59.232,0:05:03.736 - Couldn't we work on this... Sorry, what is your name? 0:05:03.736,0:05:04.944 - Alexandre. 0:05:04.944,0:05:10.470 - Alexandre. Couldn't we work on this as a team, Alex? I understand you clearly. 0:05:10.470,0:05:18.086 The more I work on this, the more technical I become. I have so many things 0:05:18.086,0:05:23.566 to say that it's just really long to explain. It becomes accessible only to people 0:05:23.566,0:05:28.721 who have put themselves to work. And that's just not many. Maybe 10% of the population if you're optimistic. 0:05:28.721,0:05:35.919 I agree with you. But at the same time, it's not a lost battle. 0:05:35.919,0:05:40.935 But you shouldn't count only on me. I don't feel like I am a the guy 0:05:40.935,0:05:47.854 who brings something. I am more the small rock, the small mechanism 0:05:47.854,0:05:55.656 in a group. Maybe I have reached a level that I am no longer easy to access 0:05:55.656,0:06:00.718 because it's just complicated, it scares people who discover it all. I hear you and understand you. 0:06:00.718,0:06:09.170 It must be others than I, like an Alexandre or a Paul. And they are going to simplify it all. 0:06:09.170,0:06:15.254 Paul made a website without telling me about it. He told me once it was finished. 0:06:15.254,0:06:18.922 When I discovered it, I said: "It's great! It's fabulous what he did!" 0:06:18.922,0:06:24.588 He made a web site called "www.le-message.org". I've put up some screenshots. 0:06:24.588,0:06:31.593 It's just 5-6 fabulous pages. It's light, it's "Sugar free". He condensed very simply, 0:06:31.593,0:06:37.970 all the conferences and the texts that he read. 0:06:37.970,0:06:45.168 He thought hard to condense it. He must have had the same objection as you: "Too much stuff 0:06:45.168,0:06:52.041 on the website of Chouard. It's too much, you just get drowned by it." 0:06:52.041,0:06:56.592 "So what's important in there?" And he just kept the essential part to bring people 0:06:56.592,0:07:03.326 to the root of causes, the constitutional process, the message. We'll be able to change everything if we 0:07:03.326,0:07:06.438 gather an assembly. If we make the same representative government as today, but 0:07:06.438,0:07:11.778 that we right the rules. Anyone but the professionals of politics. The same things 0:07:11.778,0:07:15.215 as today but with counter-powers everywhere. Our initiative 0:07:15.215,0:07:19.627 that will block the system when we're unhappy. Even that, Alexander, it's already worth it! 0:07:19.627,0:07:26.407 It's an easy thing. And so that, he made it. On his website "www.le-message.org", 0:07:26.407,0:07:35.045 you should go and see, there are five short points, each with a paragraph 0:07:35.045,0:07:39.874 of a couple lines, really light, and every word counts. The words you need 0:07:39.874,0:07:45.076 to understand the logic. Point 1, Point 2, Point 3, so what we need is: 0:07:45.076,0:07:49.162 a constitutional process where there are no professional politicians. 0:07:49.162,0:07:53.760 And for it to work, we need to be many to want this. And it will solve many problems, 0:07:53.760,0:07:59.054 most social injustices will drop in front of our political power 0:07:59.054,0:08:02.630 that has not yet been seen. The people have never seen their political power, their capacity 0:08:02.630,0:08:09.550 to resist ecological catastrophy, to corruption and so on. Allowing us to obtain 0:08:09.550,0:08:13.776 our political power will let us solve the problem. So "le-message" brings you 0:08:13.776,0:08:18.652 quickly, with an explanation much easier than mine, to this conclusion. 0:08:18.652,0:08:24.039 So could we not work as a team? That is that I continue to dig deeper on the subject, 0:08:24.039,0:08:27.986 finding objections to make sure that the system is sturdy and that we haven't 0:08:27.986,0:08:33.048 forgotten anything: A loop hole, a latent defect, something we've missed. 0:08:33.048,0:08:41.640 What you've brought up, Alexandre, in your objection is: 0:08:41.640,0:08:44.983 "I manage to convince 10%, which is slightly more than the 1% doing politics, 0:08:44.983,0:08:51.345 but 90% just don't care. That's terrible!" [br]Even when I try 0:08:51.345,0:08:55.571 to talk to them, they say: "Talk to me about something else or I'll just leave, 0:08:55.571,0:09:04.720 and I won't come back!" Alright, for this, I don't have a solution. But to me, 0:09:04.720,0:09:13.404 the answer to this is that it's nothing new. It already existed in Athens. In Athens, at the assembly, 0:09:13.404,0:09:18.652 you couldn't find the 30 or 40 thousand citizens. Only 6 thousand came. 0:09:18.652,0:09:22.832 The others just didn't care! And still, it worked fine. If you are unhappy about something, 0:09:22.832,0:09:27.708 you go to the assembly, you vote, you debate. If you're happy with how things are, you just don't go. 0:09:27.708,0:09:30.866 Things will move on without you, but that's fine. What is important 0:09:30.866,0:09:35.788 in democracy it that it works town by town. This is the scale of democracy. 0:09:35.788,0:09:39.225 Where you were talking about the scale, it should be the scale of a town. 0:09:39.225,0:09:45.123 And in every town, come who wants to come. You are right, we won't have 0:09:45.123,0:09:51.253 assemblies of 30 thousand people. We won't fill a stadium each time. We'll have small assemblies 0:09:51.253,0:09:55.990 of 6 to 10 thousand people if all goes well, if we organise things well. Yes? 0:09:55.990,0:10:02.120 - Yes, just to point out that out of the 6000 assembled at the Agora, 0:10:02.120,0:10:04.906 they renewed the pool quite often so you had a lot of new comers 0:10:04.906,0:10:07.460 so there weren't 6000 who were passionate about the subject... 0:10:07.460,0:10:08.529 - You had a lot more than that. 0:10:08.529,0:10:11.454 - ... and the rest who just stayed put on the side line. 0:10:11.454,0:10:17.909 - Yes, absolutely. To simplify things, I was just saying people didn't care 0:10:17.909,0:10:22.971 and on voting day, 6000 were there, but you're correct when you point out 0:10:22.971,0:10:26.129 that it wasn't always the same. They came because the subject was important for them. 0:10:26.129,0:10:30.634 - But you need the means to analyse because nowadays, with our education, 0:10:30.634,0:10:33.327 we don't obviously have the means to analyse. 0:10:33.327,0:10:39.225 - You're correct. But here again, the answer is in the solution. That is that, as Tocqueville says, 0:10:39.225,0:10:45.077 you can have a randomnly picked jury. That's a school of thought. 0:10:45.077,0:10:51.207 It teaches us. As Aristotle used to say, the citizen learns how to be a citizen by practicing. 0:10:51.207,0:10:55.247 Sometimes he is governed, sometimes he governs, and so on. That's what makes him fit. 0:10:55.247,0:11:01.331 "Practice makes perfect." What's important in democracy is 0:11:01.331,0:11:07.043 that since you want true equality, you need amateurism. Amateurism 0:11:07.043,0:11:12.848 means not professional. In political philosophy, they consider 0:11:12.848,0:11:17.306 that to build a ship, you need a skill, 0:11:17.306,0:11:23.065 so they elect people that skill. To lead a war, you need a skill, 0:11:23.065,0:11:28.545 so you elect your general who has that skill. To keep the books, you need a skill, 0:11:28.545,0:11:32.863 to know how to count, so you elect your finance people. What the Athenians said 0:11:32.863,0:11:37.693 and I beleive we could say this too: we shouldn't develop a complex about this point of view, 0:11:37.693,0:11:43.498 because there are many experiences out there. In the book of Sintomer (remind me to talk about it later if I forget), 0:11:43.498,0:11:46.656 there are many examples of the random draw / common lot that show 0:11:46.656,0:11:49.210 that we are competent. The randomnly drawn people are competent. 0:11:49.210,0:11:57.523 So what the Athenians said is: "To do politics, all are equal." 0:11:57.523,0:12:02.678 You do not need skills, we have skills. We all have, because we are alive 0:12:02.678,0:12:08.111 and we have a brain, skills. You just have to filter the insane. Look on your leaflet, 0:12:08.111,0:12:12.523 and you see "docimasia". It's an exam you had to take. Not for your skills. 0:12:12.523,0:12:20.604 They saw this like a bet. Not a bet, an axiom. 0:12:20.604,0:12:25.294 We were democrates. So as first basis, 0:12:25.294,0:12:28.777 as a central pillar, if you take it away, you take out democracy. So this pillar 0:12:28.777,0:12:36.718 said: "We assume we are political equals." Not intellectual equals. Athenians 0:12:36.718,0:12:41.177 knew that there were insane people, thieves and so on. So they didn't trust each other. 0:12:41.177,0:12:47.446 They knew quite well that you had idiots or crooks. 0:12:47.446,0:12:52.508 We are equal, they assumed. There are no "political" skills. You should read 0:12:52.508,0:12:58.824 Castoriadis. Castoriadis plainly shows this. So if you will, the skill 0:12:58.824,0:13:04.954 that you will need to deal with daily business, does any elected representative have it more than a randonmly drawn person? 0:13:04.954,0:13:11.502 I don't think so! I am clearly opposed to that train of thought! If I tried to make a list 0:13:11.502,0:13:18.700 of all the stupid things our elected representatives do all around the world, starting with declaring wars 0:13:18.700,0:13:24.505 and atomic explosions to test the next awful weapons! And training our military forces 0:13:24.505,0:13:29.381 with extravagant weaponry! All this is chosen by our elected representatives under the influence 0:13:29.381,0:13:36.394 of our military. So when I make a list of all the awful mistakes that our elected representatives make, 0:13:36.394,0:13:42.106 I'm not afraid of what randomnly drawn people will do. We'll have a hard time reaching such a rich prize list 0:13:42.106,0:13:48.607 of mistakes! What makes the skill of an elected representative newly in power, a young one? 0:13:48.607,0:13:54.087 Nothing, he's worthless! A young lawyer, alright, he might be a good lawyer. But he'll be awful 0:13:54.087,0:14:00.728 concerning climate change, or on the topic of geostrategy or of ecology. He knows nothing about it! Nothing! 0:14:00.728,0:14:04.072 What is going to give him the skill? And still, he'll become competent. How will he become competent? 0:14:04.072,0:14:07.323 His work! He'll tackle a subject and he'll work on it. The randomnly drawn person, 0:14:07.323,0:14:10.620 he'll do the same. Randonmly drawn people are not skilled. 0:14:10.620,0:14:13.267 It'll scare you if you say: "You need a training". 0:14:13.267,0:14:16.425 I recommend you to read Sintomer in a book called "The random draw," 0:14:16.425,0:14:21.487 and now in it's second edition, called "A small story of democratic experimentation". 0:14:21.487,0:14:23.251 He explains random draw in Athens. 0:14:23.251,0:14:24.366 It's interesting to see 0:14:24.366,0:14:26.502 it in it's detailed daily mechanisms. 0:14:26.502,0:14:28.081 It's interesting to see how it worked, 0:14:28.081,0:14:30.914 and so how we could make it work, today. 0:14:30.914,0:14:32.818 And then he explains the experiences of random draw / common lot, 0:14:32.818,0:14:34.072 today, everywhere around the world. 0:14:34.072,0:14:37.787 And you see that incompetent citizens... 0:14:37.787,0:14:41.595 Wait a second, it's our elected representatives that say we are incompetent! That's upsetting! 0:14:41.595,0:14:43.128 We aren't that incompetent! 0:14:43.128,0:14:45.264 Who are you to say that we are incompetent? 0:14:45.264,0:14:49.444 Don't beleive them. Don't beleive them. You'll see what citizen assemblies are capable of, 0:14:49.444,0:14:51.858 "assemblies of incompetents" 0:14:51.858,0:14:53.995 assemblies of people, in fact honest people 0:14:53.995,0:14:56.456 who are randomnly drawn, who know nothing about the topic. 0:14:56.456,0:14:58.685 But after having worked on the topic for six months, it's something else. 0:14:58.685,0:15:01.797 You have three months, four months, five months to think about genetically modified organism (GMO) 0:15:01.797,0:15:03.794 You'll listen to people from Monsanto, 0:15:03.794,0:15:05.280 you'll make them come. You have money to do that. 0:15:05.280,0:15:08.948 So you invite people from Monsanto and you'll ask them about GMOs 0:15:08.948,0:15:10.667 You don't know anything about it at start. OK, that's true. 0:15:10.667,0:15:11.874 But you'll ask them: 0:15:11.874,0:15:15.729 "Explain to us why... because we've been asked if we are for or against GMOs. 0:15:15.729,0:15:18.794 You seem to be for it: explain to us, Monsanto, why you would want GMOs." 0:15:18.794,0:15:21.812 And Monsanto sends their experts to explain why. 0:15:21.812,0:15:27.385 Then, these same "incompetents" know that the farmer confederation 0:15:27.385,0:15:28.592 doesn't agree with GMOs. 0:15:28.592,0:15:30.589 So they invite the people of the farmer confederation to come. 0:15:30.589,0:15:32.586 And ask: "But why are you against GMOs?" 0:15:32.586,0:15:34.305 And people of the farmer confederation explain. 0:15:34.305,0:15:35.744 During this time, people listen all around. 0:15:35.744,0:15:37.880 Other citizens, who aren't in the assembly, but who can listen. 0:15:37.880,0:15:41.596 All these people listen and try to understand. 0:15:41.596,0:15:44.196 Then they invite people from Bayer, another group like Monsanto, 0:15:44.196,0:15:46.843 and ask: "Those guys told us that GMOs are..." 0:15:46.843,0:15:49.165 Then Bayer responds with: "Yes, but they forgot to talk about this and that." 0:15:49.165,0:15:52.927 Then you invite the peasants from latin America. 0:15:52.927,0:15:54.552 We have money, remember, so we make them come. 0:15:54.552,0:15:59.011 We ask: "You didn't have GMOs before. Explain to us why you wanted GMOs. 0:15:59.011,0:16:02.958 You installed GMOs? Good. So how did it go? 0:16:02.958,0:16:04.444 If you way the pros' and cons', 0:16:04.444,0:16:05.930 what do you think about it? It's good? It's bad?" 0:16:05.930,0:16:07.927 And the peasants of Latin America will explain. 0:16:07.927,0:16:12.385 Then the "incompetents" invite the guys from Monsanto again, because 0:16:12.385,0:16:15.172 they are "incompetents", but not insane and rather honest. 0:16:15.172,0:16:17.587 So they want to know everything. They want to understand. 0:16:17.587,0:16:20.466 So they heard Monsanto once. They heard the peasants once. 0:16:20.466,0:16:23.345 They heard the opponents of GMOs once. But you need to be able to answer. 0:16:23.345,0:16:26.178 So they invite Monsanto again: 0:16:26.178,0:16:28.036 "They told us this and that. What do you say about it?" 0:16:28.036,0:16:29.940 And people from Monsanto answer. 0:16:29.940,0:16:33.051 After six months, those people are more competent than anybody. 0:16:33.051,0:16:35.187 And it's still people like you and me. 0:16:35.187,0:16:38.949 You really must read it. It'll give you confidence. 0:16:38.949,0:16:45.033 There are many stories of randomnly picked assemblies of so called "incompetents" 0:16:45.033,0:16:48.423 who, through their work, become very competent 0:16:48.423,0:16:50.791 and most of all, uninterested, 0:16:50.791,0:16:55.435 honest, very hard to influence by the lobbies because they owe nothing to no one. 0:16:55.435,0:16:58.547 Why is an elected representative corruptible? 0:16:58.547,0:17:00.683 He has debts. 0:17:00.683,0:17:03.376 He has power because someone financed his election campaign. 0:17:03.376,0:17:05.002 I'm not talking about small representatives. 0:17:05.002,0:17:08.810 Small ones can be elected because in a town, you are elected 0:17:08.810,0:17:10.992 because people know you. They know you for being someone good. 0:17:10.992,0:17:12.804 And you won't win much anyhow. 0:17:12.804,0:17:17.122 You often see a lot of loyalty & devotion in the elected representatives of small towns. 0:17:17.122,0:17:19.677 I'm not saying they are all rotten, 0:17:19.677,0:17:24.088 not at all. But when you change the size and you put at nation level 0:17:24.088,0:17:28.082 or more so, European level, and worse, world level, 0:17:28.082,0:17:31.287 when you need to finance an election campaign 0:17:31.287,0:17:32.773 to win an election of that level, 0:17:32.773,0:17:37.277 all the elected representatives are in debt towards those who financed their campaign. 0:17:37.277,0:17:39.274 Those who financed elections aren't philanthropists. 0:17:39.274,0:17:41.457 That's just untrue. Completly untrue. 0:17:41.457,0:17:43.036 They do it because they want favors in return. 0:17:43.036,0:17:46.194 So when elected representatives talk about GMOs, 0:17:46.194,0:17:49.352 they are very dependent of those who financed his election. 0:17:49.352,0:17:52.231 If amongst those who financed the election, you have Monsanto, 0:17:52.231,0:17:55.389 pharmaceutical labs, like Big Pharma, your elected representatives 0:17:55.389,0:18:00.358 might be competent, well it's worst 0:18:00.358,0:18:01.705 because they are dishonest. 0:18:01.705,0:18:03.562 If you have competence and dishonesty... 0:18:03.562,0:18:05.374 - They are in conflict of interest. 0:18:05.374,0:18:07.463 - They are in conflict of interest and it's a catastrophy. 0:18:07.463,0:18:10.203 So concerning your objection on skill, 0:18:10.203,0:18:15.497 and I have other arguments to refute it, but you can see that it doesn't resist analysis. Yes? 0:18:15.497,0:18:19.120 - Concerning what you've been saying, 0:18:19.120,0:18:21.256 the guy who's picked at random 0:18:21.256,0:18:22.789 can also be bought out by Monsanto 0:18:22.789,0:18:24.785 or bought out by the farmer confederation. 0:18:24.785,0:18:27.293 - I really must answer that objection since it keeps coming back. 0:18:27.293,0:18:29.615 - It's not that but... 0:18:29.615,0:18:32.773 - Let us imagine that the random guy picked is you. 0:18:32.773,0:18:33.702 - Yes. 0:18:33.702,0:18:36.353 - Or me... I don't owe anything to anyone. 0:18:36.353,0:18:39.491 I've been picked. Monsanto comes along to try and corrupt me. 0:18:39.491,0:18:41.682 Just see the ruckus that I'll raise at the assembly 0:18:41.682,0:18:44.308 when I say: "Hey! Monsanto is trying to corrupt me!" 0:18:44.308,0:18:45.980 Because if I don't owe anything to anyone, 0:18:45.980,0:18:48.070 it's a lot harder to corrupt me. 0:18:48.070,0:18:50.531 It's a lot harder to corrupt someone who doesn't owe anything. 0:18:50.531,0:18:54.107 Let us say it the other way around: 0:18:54.107,0:18:58.054 it's a lot easier to corrupt someone who owes you something. 0:18:58.054,0:19:00.980 And with an election on a large scale 0:19:00.980,0:19:06.739 that mecanically puts the elected representative and the candidate for the next election 0:19:06.739,0:19:10.593 on a corruptible level. He's drugged with power, he'll ask for it again. 0:19:10.593,0:19:12.729 You put him in a dependency situation 0:19:12.729,0:19:15.098 towards his sponsors 0:19:15.098,0:19:17.188 and towards his political party 0:19:17.188,0:19:19.742 who also has the same financial sponsors. 0:19:19.742,0:19:21.599 You must understand that those people 0:19:21.599,0:19:24.664 are absolutely not independent intellectually. 0:19:24.664,0:19:26.383 They can be friendly and nice at start. 0:19:26.383,0:19:29.169 The mechanism of the election will corrupt them. 0:19:29.169,0:19:30.702 I don't hold a grudge against them for it. 0:19:30.702,0:19:32.977 I'm just saying it's not the right system. 0:19:32.977,0:19:35.810 I need to answer 0:19:35.810,0:19:38.086 to the two, three strong objections you've made 0:19:38.086,0:19:39.293 when you say: 0:19:39.293,0:19:41.569 "He may well be randomnly picked but he's corruptible." 0:19:41.569,0:19:44.680 He's corruptible, but of course he is! 0:19:44.680,0:19:47.049 Athenians knew he was. 0:19:47.049,0:19:49.649 I'm not saying he's incorruptible, I'm saying he's harder to corrupt. 0:19:49.649,0:19:53.271 But most of all... Wait, let me move forward. 0:19:53.271,0:19:55.361 Tac! That's really great! 0:19:55.361,0:19:56.104 It's modern and all. 0:19:56.104,0:19:58.055 Here I go up, and here down. OK. 0:19:58.055,0:20:02.141 Down again... Day, Night. Like in "Mr. Bean". 0:20:02.141,0:20:05.810 All you see hear are controls. 0:20:05.810,0:20:08.550 That's to show how randomnly picked people weren't trusted! 0:20:08.550,0:20:10.547 They were pragmatic about it. 0:20:10.547,0:20:15.005 They weren't utopists or idealists. 0:20:15.005,0:20:17.420 They knew well enough that amongst random people 0:20:17.420,0:20:18.999 you could have awful people. 0:20:18.999,0:20:20.764 So they put a lot of control measures. 0:20:20.764,0:20:22.993 You had controls before the mandate, 0:20:22.993,0:20:25.083 after the mandate and even during the mandate. 0:20:25.083,0:20:27.916 Our elected representatives today have no controlling measures. 0:20:27.916,0:20:28.659 There: Zero. 0:20:28.659,0:20:30.563 Zero. 0:20:30.563,0:20:31.863 The small control 0:20:31.863,0:20:33.256 that is present with elected representatives is: 0:20:33.256,0:20:34.975 maybe you won't be reelected. 0:20:34.975,0:20:38.875 But if you're not reelected... 0:20:38.875,0:20:40.408 You know what they did? 0:20:40.408,0:20:43.055 They voted an income, 0:20:43.055,0:20:45.331 an unemployment income. 0:20:45.331,0:20:48.117 When you're fired, you're paid (as elected representative). How long? 0:20:48.117,0:20:49.417 Just guess. 0:20:49.417,0:20:52.343 - Five years. -Five years! Yes ! It's true. 0:20:52.343,0:20:55.501 Do you realise why we can't let them write such things? 0:20:55.501,0:20:58.752 Parlementarians wrote the rules 0:20:58.752,0:21:02.142 that let them be payed when they are elected, 0:21:02.142,0:21:05.950 and when they are rejected because they betrayed their promises 0:21:05.950,0:21:07.018 and they are not reelected, 0:21:07.018,0:21:09.340 they still get payed until the next election! 0:21:09.340,0:21:11.430 Because the current elected one is going to lie as well. 0:21:11.430,0:21:13.938 So they thought of a system to keep on living on our behalf. 0:21:13.938,0:21:16.678 It's really on our behalf because they don't work for us anymore. 0:21:16.678,0:21:19.418 And when the current one gets kicked because he betrayed us, 0:21:19.418,0:21:21.507 and we have the choice between two, that's it. 0:21:21.507,0:21:24.387 Left and right wing. Both are the same in that matter. 0:21:24.387,0:21:27.452 In England, you also have two parties. In the USA, you have two parties. 0:21:27.452,0:21:31.074 It's a mafia system that is taking over all around the world. 0:21:31.074,0:21:33.721 As if it were perfectly natural for them to be there. 0:21:33.721,0:21:35.486 What could you possible do smarter? 0:21:35.486,0:21:38.551 When this one gets fired, he still gets paid 0:21:38.551,0:21:41.569 and he'll come back in office at the next go. That's a part time job on average! 0:21:41.569,0:21:43.520 But with this unemployment income, they're paid full time. 0:21:43.520,0:21:47.049 Today, we don't have any control concerning our elected representatives. 0:21:47.049,0:21:48.024 No control at all. 0:21:48.024,0:21:51.090 Here you had only the volunteers. So it's a filter. 0:21:51.090,0:21:54.294 Those who didn't beleive they were capable didn't come. 0:21:54.294,0:21:55.966 That's a reassuring filter. 0:21:55.966,0:21:58.706 The guy who knows he can't or who doesn't care 0:21:58.706,0:22:03.210 or he gets angry for nothing or which ever reason: he's filtering himself out. 0:22:03.210,0:22:06.554 I'm going quickly but it would be worth spending time on this issue. 0:22:06.554,0:22:08.922 But I'm going quickly so I can respond to all your objections. 0:22:08.922,0:22:12.545 You had the docimasia which was an exam to filter out the insane. 0:22:12.545,0:22:15.470 Real insanity. And then you had criterias. 0:22:15.470,0:22:17.003 We should also think about criterias 0:22:17.003,0:22:19.836 to know who would be allowed for random picking, who we accept as representative. 0:22:19.836,0:22:24.666 Remember that these representatives don't vote the laws. 0:22:24.666,0:22:28.334 The goal is not: "They'll vote my laws!". Not at all, you will vote your laws. 0:22:28.334,0:22:31.260 Simply because you have randomnly picked representatives. 0:22:31.260,0:22:34.743 They will be weakened by this random draw. They will be controlled at every stage. 0:22:34.743,0:22:40.130 Because of this random draw and weakening, you will decide. 0:22:40.130,0:22:43.752 Don't be afraid of the awful guy! He might still do his job badly here and there 0:22:43.752,0:22:47.282 but he'll have very little power. Representatives will be controlled. 0:22:47.282,0:22:50.811 They won't have much power, not for a long period and never twice in a row! 0:22:50.811,0:22:53.505 And they'll be controlled, again and again and again. 0:22:53.505,0:22:57.127 There is nothing to fear in the random draw/common lot, if you think it through. 0:22:57.127,0:23:01.678 When you discover it, you don't know how it works. 0:23:01.678,0:23:05.718 You think: "Randomly picking someone!" and you imagine the same awful people as we have today. 0:23:05.718,0:23:09.852 "The little control we do have, we'll lose it 0:23:09.852,0:23:12.638 to just any random guy!" That's just a misunderstanding. 0:23:12.638,0:23:15.749 That's not it. Democracy, it's not the same system than what we have today, 0:23:15.749,0:23:17.979 plus random draw/common lot. That's not it. 0:23:17.979,0:23:26.152 Democracy is we vote our laws ourselves. 0:23:26.152,0:23:28.660 There are things we can't do: 0:23:28.660,0:23:30.517 we can't prepare the laws because we're just too many. 0:23:30.517,0:23:33.072 So we let a Counsel of Five Hundred randomnly picked prepare the laws. 0:23:33.072,0:23:36.276 They had a Counsel of Five Hundred randomnly picked who prepared the laws, discussed them. 0:23:36.276,0:23:40.316 Mind you, nothing stopped us from participating as well. Then we voted the laws. 0:23:40.316,0:23:42.452 So we need a Counsel of Five Hundred. 0:23:42.452,0:23:44.171 Randomnly picked people to prepare the laws. 0:23:44.171,0:23:47.747 Then you need other randomnly picked people to apply the law. 0:23:47.747,0:23:52.948 Judges were randomnly picked. Policemen were randomnly picked. 0:23:52.948,0:23:57.127 Policemen were randomnly picked. Not a bad idea ey? 0:23:57.127,0:24:02.329 Judges randomnly picked. They don't form a corp, a body, as Robespierre said. 0:24:02.329,0:24:05.440 That is: it's not always the same people who are armed, who could fire, 0:24:05.440,0:24:08.150 who were unpunished, who were protected. Not always the same ones. 0:24:08.150,0:24:10.751 You're a judge then a year later, you're no longer a judge. 0:24:10.751,0:24:16.741 At the end of your judge mandate, you are held accountable and you might well be punished. Punished! 0:24:16.741,0:24:18.320 Severly punished. How will you be held accountable? 0:24:18.320,0:24:22.871 You will show what you did in front of a tribunal of 200 randomnly drawn people. 0:24:22.871,0:24:25.472 This surrender was part of taking care of democracy. 0:24:25.472,0:24:30.070 You had to show your results. You were a volunteer, randomnly picked, 0:24:30.070,0:24:34.806 and the job wasn't sleeping in the shade. You weren't paid 60 000€ / month even 0:24:34.806,0:24:36.943 if you never came to the assembly. 0:24:36.943,0:24:39.915 You had to work, to show results and if you did a bad job, you might be put to death at the end. 0:24:39.915,0:24:45.255 So you had to be careful. So why did they volunteer? Because people knew what the greater good was. 0:24:45.255,0:24:47.345 It worked that way and you had the approval of others, 0:24:47.345,0:24:52.593 you had "verēcundia", shame. The one who served well his city, 0:24:52.593,0:24:56.401 he got a pantheon built for him. He received an arc of triomph. 0:24:56.401,0:25:00.820 He received all the honors, he was treated much better. People can be driven by appraisal 0:25:00.820,0:25:05.938 and we always will. Only insane people are driven by money 0:25:05.938,0:25:09.421 and only money. So they take care of the greater good and are capable 0:25:09.421,0:25:12.394 of doing things well just because they get 1 million euro per year? 0:25:12.394,0:25:14.483 Very few people work with that as incentive. 0:25:14.483,0:25:17.641 - You were talking about anachronism before, so when you say 0:25:17.641,0:25:20.149 random draw / common lot, it was in a certain context at a certain time period. 0:25:20.149,0:25:23.353 Maybe, for our age, we should talk of something else than the random draw. 0:25:23.353,0:25:24.143 - Maybe... 0:25:24.143,0:25:29.114 - It's ethics. Random draw, nowadays, it's a bit like a going to a casino... 0:25:29.114,0:25:37.632 - It'll ask quite a lot of effort, I know that it's a big effort. 0:25:37.632,0:25:41.334 - In a court room, it's not the same scale, but 0:25:41.334,0:25:43.238 people are randomnly picked. 0:25:43.238,0:25:48.160 - Today, in some courts, juries are randomnly picked and they can send people to jail for life. 0:25:48.160,0:25:52.990 And it works fine. It's something very important. 0:25:52.990,0:25:55.823 It changes people. 0:25:55.823,0:25:58.795 - Theoretically it works fine but even without considering awful people being 0:25:58.795,0:26:04.972 randmonly picked, as you say, each of us can be influenced 0:26:04.972,0:26:12.681 by financial pressures, social pressure, professional, etc. 0:26:12.681,0:26:17.975 Each of us, we know this, has pressure points. Sometimes, in the court room 0:26:17.975,0:26:23.037 you get juries out of the population who are random, yes, but with no skills... 0:26:23.037,0:26:23.826 - Absolutly 0:26:23.826,0:26:28.191 - ...and without the means to defend against these kind of pressures. 0:26:28.191,0:26:40.730 It's a bit sad to think that we have to pay our representatives 0:26:40.730,0:26:45.328 but you know we started paying our representatives, our MPs 0:26:45.328,0:26:48.671 our mayors, to avoid the fact that they become subject to those kind of pressures. 0:26:48.671,0:26:49.972 - Corrupt. 0:26:49.972,0:26:53.130 - to financial pressures first but also to avoid the fact 0:26:53.130,0:26:59.492 that those who could play that role were already ones with a large income. 0:26:59.492,0:27:03.207 - Of course. What is your name? 0:27:03.207,0:27:04.693 - It's Alain. 0:27:04.693,0:27:09.987 - Alain, I completly agree with you. We should pay our MPs. 0:27:09.987,0:27:13.517 If it's a democracy, it won't be our MPs anymore because it will be us instead 0:27:13.517,0:27:18.207 who'll vote the laws. It will be our policemen, our judges, our civil workers. 0:27:18.207,0:27:20.901 It's the people we need, tha the assembly needs 0:27:20.901,0:27:29.213 to do the things it can't do. But Alain, I know it won't be perfect. 0:27:29.213,0:27:33.579 Yes, there will be possibility for corruption, but drasticly reduced. 0:27:33.579,0:27:40.359 Don't give up on a system where we would be much more protected 0:27:40.359,0:27:44.910 against abuse of power and injustice, just because it won't be perfect. 0:27:44.910,0:27:49.647 Yes, risks of corruption will remain, but you'll have less of it. 0:27:49.647,0:27:55.266 Do realise that right now, those who took the power after the French Revolution... 0:27:55.266,0:28:01.211 For me, this has been going on for a long time. You keep on finding them. Since 1789, you find 0:28:01.211,0:28:06.691 the ultra-rich, the 1%, who decide if it will rain or shine, who decide wars, injustice, 0:28:06.691,0:28:11.752 who have made this unfair right called capitalism. Because it is a right. 0:28:11.752,0:28:15.978 It's the right of the owner on the workers. And this is made possible 0:28:15.978,0:28:20.715 only because the rich have succeeded. Never before had they been able to in human history. 0:28:20.715,0:28:25.127 You must understant that before, it wasn't grand, you still had abuse of power, but the rich 0:28:25.127,0:28:30.375 had to share power before 1789. The rich had to share power with the nobles, 0:28:30.375,0:28:32.325 with the clergy, with the king. 0:28:32.325,0:28:35.715 - You're idealising a bit, I beleive, what was going on before the French Revolution. 0:28:35.715,0:28:36.505 - Not at all! 0:28:36.505,0:28:41.428 - That is that a royalty, that you pointed out earlier, could be a solution. 0:28:41.428,0:28:44.585 I don't regret royalty. 0:28:44.585,0:28:47.233 - Me neither, me neither. It was a provocation to show you that I am open. 0:28:47.233,0:28:51.133 - In the same maner, you have taken as example 0:28:51.133,0:28:57.496 the swiss peoples' initiative referendum. For me, the swiss system, the way the Swiss live, 0:28:57.496,0:29:02.697 for the majority of the Swiss, with the power of the actual banks, the role of the banks 0:29:02.697,0:29:05.019 in the 30's and 40's with Germany... 0:29:05.019,0:29:05.855 - Wasn't honorable. 0:29:05.855,0:29:07.062 - I don't regret that. 0:29:07.062,0:29:08.641 - I don't want to take it as example. Yes, I agree with you. 0:29:08.641,0:29:09.895 - But you talked about Switzerland. 0:29:09.895,0:29:13.982 - Yes, but I never finished my example. I talked about Switzerland because... 0:29:13.982,0:29:20.391 I forgot to tell you that while the French were being destroyed, Alain, 0:29:20.391,0:29:24.013 and you do well to remind me in this, because I forgot 0:29:24.013,0:29:27.589 and it's important so that you understand why I was talking about Switzerland. 0:29:27.589,0:29:31.908 While the French were getting their pensions destroyed without any mean to resist it, 0:29:31.908,0:29:37.063 during that time, the same year, last year, the Swiss parlementarians also 0:29:37.063,0:29:45.654 voted to degrade the Swiss pensions. In the weeks that followed, the Swiss started 0:29:45.654,0:29:52.109 a peoples' initiative referendum that succeeded and they abrogated those laws. 0:29:52.109,0:29:58.332 Pay attention to this, please. I'm not saying that the Swiss are a model, that's not it. 0:29:58.332,0:30:03.766 It's like athenian democracy, it's not a model. I say like Castoriadis 0:30:03.766,0:30:09.663 that in the athenian democracy, there is a seed, there is something interesting. I won't take it all. 0:30:09.663,0:30:15.747 You see what I mean? In the case of Switzerland, there are things that disgust me. 0:30:15.747,0:30:19.973 But there are also interesting things. I have discernment, that is 0:30:19.973,0:30:27.032 that I don't throw away the whole swiss example because there are some things I don't appreciate. I sort things, 0:30:27.032,0:30:31.722 I distinguist and say: "Hey, that's good! This I want!" And there I say: "Slavery I don't like, 0:30:31.722,0:30:39.338 Phallocracy, I'm not interested, brutality, death penalty, I don't want it." However, 0:30:39.338,0:30:47.976 desynchronising economical power from political power, Alain, that should 0:30:47.976,0:30:54.896 still interest you! Even if you take marxist ideas, or experiences on ideas that Marx had, 0:30:54.896,0:30:59.633 no one ever succeeded to desynchronise political power 0:30:59.633,0:31:11.960 from economical power. Here, they managed it for over 200 years. That's just sexy! At least attractive. 0:31:11.960,0:31:16.183 Well sexy, attractive, I mean...no ? It's not ? You don't think it is? 0:31:16.183,0:31:17.762 - It's more sexy than the power of the banks over us at least. 0:31:17.762,0:31:18.737 - Yes! 0:31:18.737,0:31:21.988 - It's still the same families that held the power for 200 years. 0:31:21.988,0:31:23.845 - Not at all! On this, you are wrong. 0:31:23.845,0:31:29.697 - I'm not talking about political power, I'm talking about economical persons and finance people. 0:31:29.697,0:31:35.042 - You should let other people talk... 0:31:35.042,0:31:41.835 - In Athens, Alain, I insist on this, and maybe I'm wrong, but here 0:31:41.835,0:31:45.736 is a point that is a fact. We don't have to quibble over this. 0:31:45.736,0:31:53.398 This is a fact. Plato, Aristotle and the others complained 0:31:53.398,0:31:57.856 all their lives about this government led by the poor. Don't tell me the rich ruled. 0:31:57.856,0:32:00.550 It's not true, I won't beleive it. This is stricly facts. 0:32:00.550,0:32:03.522 - What I'm saying is that you're not questioning the wealth of certain (very few) people 0:32:03.522,0:32:06.308 and the poverty of the vast majority. 0:32:06.308,0:32:08.212 - Wait. Wealth isn't happiness. 0:32:08.212,0:32:13.321 - That's what the rich say. Be poor! Wealth isn't happiness. 0:32:13.321,0:32:14.296 To me it is. 0:32:14.296,0:32:19.730 - That's total dogmatism. It's a closed point of view. 0:32:19.730,0:32:22.748 - Alain, I'm sure that... 0:32:22.748,0:32:26.045 - We're not being emphatical here. It's a pure conflict. 0:32:26.045,0:32:31.340 - Just one second, some has been very patient there, sitting in the middle.