A: Hello Tumblr, uh we are Glitter Politic, coming to you live M: Yeahhh M: I'm Majestic A: I'm Ashley A: We brought whiskey M: And fisting gloves A: Yes. Um, we're gonna talk to you today about um, Identity Politics A: There's some busted shit going on on the internet right now A: and um, we're upset. M: So we're drinking our feelings, and talking about our feelings M: Which is important A: Which is what we do A & M: We're talkers. Yeah. A: So, yeah, maybe we'll just launch right in. Um, so riotsnotdiets A: posted a response to an anonymous` question about the definition of queer A: we thought that what she had to say was great, um, and like she seems A: quite knowledgeable about queer in general. And uh, A: And then there was a shit storm. Of people being kind of mean, and pretty horrible to her M: We didn't really - well to be honest we didn't really read them A: It's pretty hard to follow M: Yeah, and I just feel like, uh well Ashley doesn't really understand the internet M: Which is really, adorable, but also uh, we also just don't have the energy M: to read things that are really like policing and like mean spirited M: and like, I just like, I read one of those things and it just made my heart so sad M: Like, I have enough sadness in my heart, so I like, had to click close A: Walk away! M: Walk Away! M: Okay um, so the first thing we wanna talk about is like why the need to identify? M: Like, why are identity politics like queer important? do you wanna talk about that? A: Yeah. Um I think that identity politics, or just identities in general A: have a really long history of struggle. Are rooted in a history of struggle. A: The fact that we can have identites to cling to at all is because people have A: for generations, done so much work to like, even allow us to have those A: thought patterns. You know? Um to make safe-safer spaces for certain people to have identities M: In a contemporary context, I would just like to say that fat activism is an example of M: identity politics, or fat acceptance. A: Or feminism, or... M: Well yeah, but that's just one that's really present on tumblr, so yeah. A: Yeah, like part of that struggle is the like need to reform social and political systems A: that are inherently oppressive to certain people. A: That's partially why we have identities, and also because we need to find community A: And there's like a really deep need for community when you come from a marginalized group A: Or multiple marginalized groups, you know? A: And so yeah, we're searching for people who like have similar experiences to us A: And we're searching for people who look like us A: and we are searching for people we can see ourselves in A: so those are some of the reasons why identities are really important to people A: and why we start to get really kind of freaked out when that gets called into question A: So I just want to like honor that and acknowledge that that's like A: a reality for people, including us. M: Yeah, for sure. M: Um, so like to add on to that one thing I would say is that the problem with that M: Is that when we build movements based on identity politics, or political identities M: to get rights for certain individuals, that means that these rights are only for certain individuals M: So inherently, this excludes people M: I think that, that has it's place but I also think that it does stand in the way of really M: transformational social chance in the sense that we aren't able anymore to M: connect really, across difference M: I find as a queer person that my politics are really alienating sometimes M: and um, I think that it's like really important to look at the ways that our identity politics M: As radical and revolutionary as they may seem M: May be limited by things like, uh, their inability to connect to other people M: And so yeah. Um, we took notes. I can't read my writing. A: (laughs) M: Yeah, I can't read that at all A: Yeah so I think basically when we start to create new, or what feel like radical identity categories A: I know for myself, like, femme was one that was really important to me A: and still is, but like, in it's formation was like, really consuming A: and I was like, building femme community in Victoria, and trying to work shit out A: and within that, what ended up happening was the question kept coming up: A: Like, who is allowed to be here? A: Who do we define as femme? What does this mean? A: And we were never able to comfortably answer that question. A: It always felt really, uncomfortable, and wrong actually to try to say who can and can't come in. A: But there was a need to ask the question, and so I think that reflects A: that when we are defining ourselves, what we are doing is like, containing our identities A: into like, very sort of small, limited, fixed, restrictive places A: And we're looking outside of them and defining ourselves against what we are not M: I have a really good analogy for this actually. The way that I like to think about identity politics M: And queer is part of this for sure, is like a shelf. A shelf with a bunch of containers on it. M: So there's all these different containers, and each container contains a different identity politic M: And in that identity politic, those people feel really great, but like M: It's like not permeable for people on the outside, and also, we can't move off of the shelf. M: So uh, I don't know. A: Yeah. So yes, I guess like these containers A: or I guess another way of looking at it is building fences A: around our identities. Um, it's like, it can be really damaging, right? A: Because as soon as you start to build a sense of self, you are simultaneously A: building a sense of other as well. and so the question is then, who is that other? M: And in this case it was riotsnotdiets. A: Yeah, and because - M: You're not an other baby. Not to us. Ashley: Not to us. Yeah. People were percieving riotsnotdiets as A: a "straight girl" M: heteronormative A: a heteronomative straight girl, appropriating queer experience A: As those there is one queer experience. A uniform, universal queer experience A: to be appropriated in the first place M: Which is kind of inherently against what queer means, as a definition M: Like, by definition queer is really radical, it's shifting, it's fluid there is so much in it M: and there is room for everybody. But when it's brought into an M: identity politic, automatically people are like excluding other people M: and like, policing other people and telling them that like, they can't be a part of it. M: Which is really interesting. A: So yeah, so, let's like talk about fences a little bit. M: Yeah! A: Um a friend of mine was telling us the other night about this municipality in Quebec A: Where she is from. That this sort of particularly wealthy community A: I guess? You know, decided to build a fence around their municipality. A: Um and they had a lot of greenspace, and within that greenspace - okay so A: the fence that they built was like this dinky, kind of like pathetic A: like knee high fence M: Like it existed as a symbol A: As a symbol. Yeah, it was really innefectual for anything other than that. A: But what it did was it said, these people belong inside this municipality A: And those who are outside do not belong inside. A: Um, and so within this green space there were these kind of cops I guess A: This like beautiful park right, and these cops would drive around on golf carts A: and be um, chasing people out who didn't belong there A: if they weren't from the municipality. M: Yeah, and to add to that, one of our really wonderful friends M: uh, came over today for coffee and said this really lovely thing M: "fences are a despicable thing if you really think about it" M: because they are markers of property. And when you think about how you look around and you M: See fences everywhere. And what they mean is really intense if you um, are somebody who M: is invested in radical politics and doesn't really like capitalism M: And when you take it into an analysis of your community, or your identities M: like it's really interesting how our fences, we build fences, and our identities become our property M: And we believe that we can chase people around in golf carts like cops M: And like, tell them that they can't be in our green space. M: I think that's really interesting, and also sad M: And I think that we need to be more aware and reflexive about the ways M: That we do that, and how damaging that is. A: And like thinking about the reasons why we do that right? A: I think part of it is because we are afraid. I think we are really afraid A: of people getting inside, and like, depoliticizing the movement A: or like, ruining everything we've built for ourselves. A: And then the other part of it that like, we want power. A: Like people are seeking power and what that looks like in this context A: and in many contexts, is a power over A: Um, and when it's about , I want empowerment or strength A: To like live my life the way that I need to and feel free, often it gets turned into A: this control and like, authority, I suppose. M: Yeah! And I think that also historically identitiy politics have been M: to access, like certain kinds of privilege right? like the state will only give concessions M: to certain people, uh, certain groups of people. M: An example of that is like, the gay marriage thing in Canada, and that in the United States M: You couldn't ever open that all up to everybody, what would happen? M: Well it'd be amazing obviously, for like anybody to have access to the rights of marriage M: but it's like obviously not going to happen. M: Um, and another part of that is that this idea of normativity M: is really problematic in queer communities because M: I think that queer has this potential to be really bad ass M: I think that it's important to remember that we really need to be looking at the ways in which M: Nobody exists outside of like the ways that we are produced as subjects in this world M: and like I think that often we think that are not somehow implicated in M: white supremacy, or like racism, or capitalism, or patriarcy M: or being a misogynist, or policing other people A: or being transphobic M: or being transphobic! or whatever. I think it's really important to remember you M: Are super implicated in that M: We are super implicated in that, and in these political identities however radical they may seem M: Um, and that also, before what I was saying is that these identities M: And the way that we are taking them up are really embedded in the ways M: in which capitalism organizes our lives. And I think that when you take this M: into a context of fences and policing and borders M: You can see how queer communities politice one another just like the state polices us M: And we create our counter norms, but are they really that radical? M: I don't know. There is a lot to think about. And I hope that we were articulate. M: I just think that there needs to be more critical thought around this. A: And a little bit more gentleness, I think. M: Gentleness! Fuck! Let's just hug instead. Kay? M: Because you can't be tough without also being tender. A: So, oh yeah. This is our thing now. M: This is our new power symbol. For AfroTitty. A: (laughs) Okay, yes this is Glitter Politic, signing off. Thanks for listening.