1 00:00:02,763 --> 00:00:07,082 A: Hello Tumblr, uh we are Glitter Politic, coming to you live 2 00:00:07,082 --> 00:00:07,885 M: Yeahhh 3 00:00:07,932 --> 00:00:09,262 M: I'm Majestic 4 00:00:09,262 --> 00:00:10,609 A: I'm Ashley 5 00:00:11,209 --> 00:00:13,402 A: We brought whiskey 6 00:00:13,494 --> 00:00:14,835 M: And fisting gloves 7 00:00:15,020 --> 00:00:19,844 A: Yes. Um, we're gonna talk to you today about um, Identity Politics 8 00:00:19,936 --> 00:00:24,079 A: There's some busted shit going on on the internet right now 9 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:26,912 A: and um, we're upset. 10 00:00:26,912 --> 00:00:30,675 M: So we're drinking our feelings, and talking about our feelings 11 00:00:30,675 --> 00:00:32,254 M: Which is important 12 00:00:32,254 --> 00:00:33,789 A: Which is what we do 13 00:00:33,835 --> 00:00:35,225 A & M: We're talkers. Yeah. 14 00:00:35,225 --> 00:00:41,819 A: So, yeah, maybe we'll just launch right in. Um, so riotsnotdiets 15 00:00:41,819 --> 00:00:48,414 A: posted a response to an anonymous` question about the definition of queer 16 00:00:48,414 --> 00:00:56,218 A: we thought that what she had to say was great, um, and like she seems 17 00:00:56,218 --> 00:01:01,244 A: quite knowledgeable about queer in general. And uh, 18 00:01:01,244 --> 00:01:08,336 A: And then there was a shit storm. Of people being kind of mean, and pretty horrible to her 19 00:01:08,336 --> 00:01:11,964 M: We didn't really - well to be honest we didn't really read them 20 00:01:11,964 --> 00:01:13,169 A: It's pretty hard to follow 21 00:01:13,169 --> 00:01:16,278 M: Yeah, and I just feel like, uh well Ashley doesn't really understand the internet 22 00:01:16,278 --> 00:01:22,361 M: Which is really, adorable, but also uh, we also just don't have the energy 23 00:01:22,361 --> 00:01:26,959 M: to read things that are really like policing and like mean spirited 24 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:31,463 M: and like, I just like, I read one of those things and it just made my heart so sad 25 00:01:31,463 --> 00:01:35,364 M: Like, I have enough sadness in my heart, so I like, had to click close 26 00:01:35,364 --> 00:01:36,525 A: Walk away! 27 00:01:36,525 --> 00:01:38,151 M: Walk Away! 28 00:01:38,151 --> 00:01:43,956 M: Okay um, so the first thing we wanna talk about is like why the need to identify? 29 00:01:43,956 --> 00:01:50,736 M: Like, why are identity politics like queer important? do you wanna talk about that? 30 00:01:50,736 --> 00:01:56,092 A: Yeah. Um I think that identity politics, or just identities in general 31 00:01:56,092 --> 00:02:00,953 A: have a really long history of struggle. Are rooted in a history of struggle. 32 00:02:00,953 --> 00:02:09,544 A: The fact that we can have identites to cling to at all is because people have 33 00:02:09,544 --> 00:02:14,653 A: for generations, done so much work to like, even allow us to have those 34 00:02:14,653 --> 00:02:21,851 A: thought patterns. You know? Um to make safe-safer spaces for certain people to have identities 35 00:02:21,851 --> 00:02:27,470 M: In a contemporary context, I would just like to say that fat activism is an example of 36 00:02:27,470 --> 00:02:30,396 M: identity politics, or fat acceptance. 37 00:02:30,396 --> 00:02:32,811 A: Or feminism, or... 38 00:02:32,811 --> 00:02:35,458 M: Well yeah, but that's just one that's really present on tumblr, so yeah. 39 00:02:35,458 --> 00:02:45,628 A: Yeah, like part of that struggle is the like need to reform social and political systems 40 00:02:45,628 --> 00:02:47,625 A: that are inherently oppressive to certain people. 41 00:02:47,625 --> 00:02:55,009 A: That's partially why we have identities, and also because we need to find community 42 00:02:55,009 --> 00:03:00,210 A: And there's like a really deep need for community when you come from a marginalized group 43 00:03:00,210 --> 00:03:02,950 A: Or multiple marginalized groups, you know? 44 00:03:02,950 --> 00:03:07,687 A: And so yeah, we're searching for people who like have similar experiences to us 45 00:03:07,687 --> 00:03:10,241 A: And we're searching for people who look like us 46 00:03:10,241 --> 00:03:14,096 A: and we are searching for people we can see ourselves in 47 00:03:14,096 --> 00:03:18,415 A: so those are some of the reasons why identities are really important to people 48 00:03:18,415 --> 00:03:22,919 A: and why we start to get really kind of freaked out when that gets called into question 49 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:25,752 A: So I just want to like honor that and acknowledge that that's like 50 00:03:25,752 --> 00:03:27,749 A: a reality for people, including us. 51 00:03:27,749 --> 00:03:29,653 M: Yeah, for sure. 52 00:03:29,653 --> 00:03:34,436 M: Um, so like to add on to that one thing I would say is that the problem with that 53 00:03:34,436 --> 00:03:38,941 M: Is that when we build movements based on identity politics, or political identities 54 00:03:38,941 --> 00:03:45,117 M: to get rights for certain individuals, that means that these rights are only for certain individuals 55 00:03:45,117 --> 00:03:48,972 M: So inherently, this excludes people 56 00:03:48,972 --> 00:03:55,148 M: I think that, that has it's place but I also think that it does stand in the way of really 57 00:03:55,148 --> 00:03:58,167 M: transformational social chance in the sense that we aren't able anymore to 58 00:03:58,167 --> 00:04:00,303 M: connect really, across difference 59 00:04:00,303 --> 00:04:04,715 M: I find as a queer person that my politics are really alienating sometimes 60 00:04:04,715 --> 00:04:10,102 M: and um, I think that it's like really important to look at the ways that our identity politics 61 00:04:10,102 --> 00:04:12,981 M: As radical and revolutionary as they may seem 62 00:04:12,981 --> 00:04:17,115 M: May be limited by things like, uh, their inability to connect to other people 63 00:04:17,115 --> 00:04:23,477 M: And so yeah. Um, we took notes. I can't read my writing. 64 00:04:23,477 --> 00:04:25,660 A: (laughs) 65 00:04:25,660 --> 00:04:27,285 M: Yeah, I can't read that at all 66 00:04:27,285 --> 00:04:37,966 A: Yeah so I think basically when we start to create new, or what feel like radical identity categories 67 00:04:37,966 --> 00:04:40,474 A: I know for myself, like, femme was one that was really important to me 68 00:04:40,474 --> 00:04:44,653 A: and still is, but like, in it's formation was like, really consuming 69 00:04:44,653 --> 00:04:51,016 A: and I was like, building femme community in Victoria, and trying to work shit out 70 00:04:51,016 --> 00:04:55,711 A: and within that, what ended up happening was the question kept coming up: 71 00:04:55,711 --> 00:04:58,032 A: Like, who is allowed to be here? 72 00:04:58,078 --> 00:05:00,350 A: Who do we define as femme? What does this mean? 73 00:05:00,350 --> 00:05:03,833 A: And we were never able to comfortably answer that question. 74 00:05:03,833 --> 00:05:10,938 A: It always felt really, uncomfortable, and wrong actually to try to say who can and can't come in. 75 00:05:10,938 --> 00:05:16,511 A: But there was a need to ask the question, and so I think that reflects 76 00:05:16,511 --> 00:05:21,666 A: that when we are defining ourselves, what we are doing is like, containing our identities 77 00:05:21,666 --> 00:05:27,100 A: into like, very sort of small, limited, fixed, restrictive places 78 00:05:27,100 --> 00:05:31,743 A: And we're looking outside of them and defining ourselves against what we are not 79 00:05:31,743 --> 00:05:36,666 M: I have a really good analogy for this actually. The way that I like to think about identity politics 80 00:05:36,666 --> 00:05:43,864 M: And queer is part of this for sure, is like a shelf. A shelf with a bunch of containers on it. 81 00:05:43,864 --> 00:05:47,905 M: So there's all these different containers, and each container contains a different identity politic 82 00:05:47,905 --> 00:05:52,522 M: And in that identity politic, those people feel really great, but like 83 00:05:52,522 --> 00:05:58,911 M: It's like not permeable for people on the outside, and also, we can't move off of the shelf. 84 00:05:58,911 --> 00:06:01,271 M: So uh, I don't know. 85 00:06:01,271 --> 00:06:04,494 A: Yeah. So yes, I guess like these containers 86 00:06:04,494 --> 00:06:08,046 A: or I guess another way of looking at it is building fences 87 00:06:08,831 --> 00:06:15,000 A: around our identities. Um, it's like, it can be really damaging, right? 88 00:06:15,046 --> 00:06:18,671 A: Because as soon as you start to build a sense of self, you are simultaneously 89 00:06:18,671 --> 00:06:24,894 A: building a sense of other as well. and so the question is then, who is that other? 90 00:06:24,894 --> 00:06:27,634 M: And in this case it was riotsnotdiets. 91 00:06:27,634 --> 00:06:29,213 A: Yeah, and because - 92 00:06:29,213 --> 00:06:31,674 M: You're not an other baby. Not to us. 93 00:06:31,674 --> 00:06:35,482 Ashley: Not to us. Yeah. People were percieving riotsnotdiets as 94 00:06:35,482 --> 00:06:37,572 A: a "straight girl" 95 00:06:37,572 --> 00:06:38,823 M: heteronormative 96 00:06:38,823 --> 00:06:42,262 A: a heteronomative straight girl, appropriating queer experience 97 00:06:42,262 --> 00:06:46,999 A: As those there is one queer experience. A uniform, universal queer experience 98 00:06:46,999 --> 00:06:49,043 A: to be appropriated in the first place 99 00:06:49,043 --> 00:06:53,640 M: Which is kind of inherently against what queer means, as a definition 100 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:59,538 M: Like, by definition queer is really radical, it's shifting, it's fluid there is so much in it 101 00:06:59,538 --> 00:07:03,486 M: and there is room for everybody. But when it's brought into an 102 00:07:03,486 --> 00:07:05,622 M: identity politic, automatically people are like excluding other people 103 00:07:05,622 --> 00:07:10,126 M: and like, policing other people and telling them that like, they can't be a part of it. 104 00:07:10,126 --> 00:07:11,473 M: Which is really interesting. 105 00:07:11,473 --> 00:07:14,863 A: So yeah, so, let's like talk about fences a little bit. 106 00:07:14,863 --> 00:07:16,442 M: Yeah! 107 00:07:16,442 --> 00:07:21,274 A: Um a friend of mine was telling us the other night about this municipality in Quebec 108 00:07:21,335 --> 00:07:28,284 A: Where she is from. That this sort of particularly wealthy community 109 00:07:28,284 --> 00:07:31,907 A: I guess? You know, decided to build a fence around their municipality. 110 00:07:31,907 --> 00:07:35,761 A: Um and they had a lot of greenspace, and within that greenspace - okay so 111 00:07:35,761 --> 00:07:41,102 A: the fence that they built was like this dinky, kind of like pathetic 112 00:07:41,102 --> 00:07:42,356 A: like knee high fence 113 00:07:42,356 --> 00:07:44,771 M: Like it existed as a symbol 114 00:07:44,771 --> 00:07:47,789 A: As a symbol. Yeah, it was really innefectual for anything other than that. 115 00:07:47,789 --> 00:07:52,549 A: But what it did was it said, these people belong inside this municipality 116 00:07:52,549 --> 00:07:55,893 A: And those who are outside do not belong inside. 117 00:07:55,893 --> 00:08:01,373 A: Um, and so within this green space there were these kind of cops I guess 118 00:08:01,373 --> 00:08:05,413 A: This like beautiful park right, and these cops would drive around on golf carts 119 00:08:05,413 --> 00:08:09,964 A: and be um, chasing people out who didn't belong there 120 00:08:09,964 --> 00:08:13,494 A: if they weren't from the municipality. 121 00:08:13,494 --> 00:08:17,952 M: Yeah, and to add to that, one of our really wonderful friends 122 00:08:17,952 --> 00:08:21,063 M: uh, came over today for coffee and said this really lovely thing 123 00:08:21,063 --> 00:08:24,546 M: "fences are a despicable thing if you really think about it" 124 00:08:24,546 --> 00:08:30,351 M: because they are markers of property. And when you think about how you look around and you 125 00:08:30,351 --> 00:08:35,924 M: See fences everywhere. And what they mean is really intense if you um, are somebody who 126 00:08:35,924 --> 00:08:39,036 M: is invested in radical politics and doesn't really like capitalism 127 00:08:39,036 --> 00:08:44,098 M: And when you take it into an analysis of your community, or your identities 128 00:08:44,098 --> 00:08:50,553 M: like it's really interesting how our fences, we build fences, and our identities become our property 129 00:08:50,553 --> 00:08:54,732 M: And we believe that we can chase people around in golf carts like cops 130 00:08:54,732 --> 00:08:58,262 M: And like, tell them that they can't be in our green space. 131 00:08:58,262 --> 00:09:02,070 M: I think that's really interesting, and also sad 132 00:09:02,070 --> 00:09:07,828 M: And I think that we need to be more aware and reflexive about the ways 133 00:09:07,828 --> 00:09:09,779 M: That we do that, and how damaging that is. 134 00:09:09,779 --> 00:09:12,147 A: And like thinking about the reasons why we do that right? 135 00:09:12,147 --> 00:09:16,513 A: I think part of it is because we are afraid. I think we are really afraid 136 00:09:16,513 --> 00:09:19,763 A: of people getting inside, and like, depoliticizing the movement 137 00:09:19,763 --> 00:09:24,918 A: or like, ruining everything we've built for ourselves. 138 00:09:24,918 --> 00:09:28,494 A: And then the other part of it that like, we want power. 139 00:09:28,494 --> 00:09:31,699 A: Like people are seeking power and what that looks like in this context 140 00:09:31,699 --> 00:09:34,578 A: and in many contexts, is a power over 141 00:09:34,578 --> 00:09:39,268 A: Um, and when it's about , I want empowerment or strength 142 00:09:39,268 --> 00:09:45,909 A: To like live my life the way that I need to and feel free, often it gets turned into 143 00:09:45,909 --> 00:09:52,039 A: this control and like, authority, I suppose. 144 00:09:52,039 --> 00:09:56,822 M: Yeah! And I think that also historically identitiy politics have been 145 00:09:56,822 --> 00:10:01,002 M: to access, like certain kinds of privilege right? like the state will only give concessions 146 00:10:01,002 --> 00:10:04,439 M: to certain people, uh, certain groups of people. 147 00:10:04,439 --> 00:10:07,968 M: An example of that is like, the gay marriage thing in Canada, and that in the United States 148 00:10:07,968 --> 00:10:13,169 M: You couldn't ever open that all up to everybody, what would happen? 149 00:10:13,169 --> 00:10:19,253 M: Well it'd be amazing obviously, for like anybody to have access to the rights of marriage 150 00:10:19,253 --> 00:10:21,951 M: but it's like obviously not going to happen. 151 00:10:21,951 --> 00:10:26,535 M: Um, and another part of that is that this idea of normativity 152 00:10:26,535 --> 00:10:29,981 M: is really problematic in queer communities because 153 00:10:29,981 --> 00:10:33,835 M: I think that queer has this potential to be really bad ass 154 00:10:33,835 --> 00:10:40,430 M: I think that it's important to remember that we really need to be looking at the ways in which 155 00:10:40,430 --> 00:10:47,070 M: Nobody exists outside of like the ways that we are produced as subjects in this world 156 00:10:47,070 --> 00:10:52,643 M: and like I think that often we think that are not somehow implicated in 157 00:10:52,643 --> 00:10:56,219 M: white supremacy, or like racism, or capitalism, or patriarcy 158 00:10:56,219 --> 00:10:59,888 M: or being a misogynist, or policing other people 159 00:10:59,888 --> 00:11:01,281 A: or being transphobic 160 00:11:01,281 --> 00:11:04,811 M: or being transphobic! or whatever. I think it's really important to remember you 161 00:11:04,811 --> 00:11:06,436 M: Are super implicated in that 162 00:11:06,436 --> 00:11:12,334 M: We are super implicated in that, and in these political identities however radical they may seem 163 00:11:12,334 --> 00:11:17,442 M: Um, and that also, before what I was saying is that these identities 164 00:11:17,442 --> 00:11:22,318 M: And the way that we are taking them up are really embedded in the ways 165 00:11:22,318 --> 00:11:26,869 M: in which capitalism organizes our lives. And I think that when you take this 166 00:11:26,869 --> 00:11:29,284 M: into a context of fences and policing and borders 167 00:11:29,284 --> 00:11:35,182 M: You can see how queer communities politice one another just like the state polices us 168 00:11:35,182 --> 00:11:40,616 M: And we create our counter norms, but are they really that radical? 169 00:11:40,616 --> 00:11:45,817 M: I don't know. There is a lot to think about. And I hope that we were articulate. 170 00:11:45,817 --> 00:11:49,439 M: I just think that there needs to be more critical thought around this. 171 00:11:49,439 --> 00:11:52,969 A: And a little bit more gentleness, I think. 172 00:11:52,969 --> 00:11:55,476 M: Gentleness! Fuck! Let's just hug instead. Kay? 173 00:11:55,476 --> 00:12:01,328 M: Because you can't be tough without also being tender. 174 00:12:01,328 --> 00:12:05,182 A: So, oh yeah. This is our thing now. 175 00:12:05,182 --> 00:12:09,223 M: This is our new power symbol. For AfroTitty. 176 00:12:09,223 --> 99:59:59,999 A: (laughs) Okay, yes this is Glitter Politic, signing off. Thanks for listening.