WEBVTT 00:00:01.034 --> 00:00:02.202 Good evening 00:00:02.202 --> 00:00:05.123 This is the Digital Age and I am Jim Zirin 00:00:05.123 --> 00:00:14.161 Secretary of State Clinton wants to harness the Internet to further the objectives of America foreign policy 00:00:14.161 --> 00:00:16.283 Freedom and Democracy 00:00:16.283 --> 00:00:19.754 Our guest tonight takes the contrarian view 00:00:19.754 --> 00:00:25.927 He sees the Internet as an instrumentality used by repressive regimes 00:00:25.927 --> 00:00:28.763 To crackdown on dissidents 00:00:28.763 --> 00:00:31.766 So, what is this Internet? 00:00:31.766 --> 00:00:35.770 Is it a Techno-Utopia or is it a Digital Dictatorship? 00:00:35.770 --> 00:00:40.375 Here to discuss this issue with us is Evgeny Morozov 00:00:40.375 --> 00:00:45.555 Evgeny Morozov teaches at Georgetown and is a seminal thinker 00:00:45.555 --> 00:00:48.544 On political implications of the Internet 00:00:50.916 --> 00:00:53.288 He recently wrote a full page thought-provoking Op-ed 00:00:53.288 --> 00:00:55.591 Which appeared on The Wall Street Journal 00:00:55.591 --> 00:00:58.294 in which he dealt with this precise question 00:00:58.294 --> 00:00:59.662 Evgeny, Welcome! 00:00:59.662 --> 00:01:00.796 Thanks so much for having me 00:01:00.796 --> 00:01:02.131 We are delighted to have you 00:01:02.131 --> 00:01:06.235 To kick things off, is Hillary a techno-utopian? 00:01:06.235 --> 00:01:07.703 Did you coined the term? 00:01:07.703 --> 00:01:09.739 Actually, I didn't coined the term. 00:01:09.739 --> 00:01:15.178 I think there has been a lot of fascination with what technology can help us accomplish 00:01:15.178 --> 00:01:19.816 Throughout history, people looked at the radio, people looked at the telegraph 00:01:19.816 --> 00:01:22.252 With a lot of expectations 00:01:22.252 --> 00:01:26.289 As to how they can ??? the world peace, for example 00:01:26.289 --> 00:01:29.392 There has been a lot of enthusiasm about the telegraph 00:01:29.392 --> 00:01:36.099 And now I think a lot of that enthusiasm is also talkable when it comes to issues like blogging 00:01:36.099 --> 00:01:37.601 Or social networking 00:01:37.601 --> 00:01:40.037 Or things like Twitter. 00:01:40.037 --> 00:01:48.312 And I do think there's a certain degree of cyber-utopianism or techno-utopianism, if you will 00:01:48.312 --> 00:01:53.350 in Secretary Clinton's thinking, particularly in her recent speech 00:01:53.350 --> 00:01:54.552 About the Internet Freedom 00:01:54.552 --> 00:02:01.058 Well, the idea is, I suppose that Twitter and Facebook will help dissidents to organize 00:02:01.058 --> 00:02:03.623 And exchange ideas and... 00:02:03.623 --> 00:02:06.831 Will eventually bring about reform in places like Iran. 00:02:06.831 --> 00:02:11.503 Do you agree with that logic? 00:02:11.503 --> 00:02:15.306 Well, yes you can certainly and I do agree with that logic 00:02:15.306 --> 00:02:20.679 It's just that there are a lot of other hidden costs which are not necessarily obvious 00:02:20.679 --> 00:02:27.085 To us sitting in the west and thinking that the Internet is only for the dissidents 00:02:27.085 --> 00:02:31.023 Or for the young people to play around and to topple the regimes 00:02:31.023 --> 00:02:35.759 As it turns out the regimes themselves are actually very active users 00:02:35.759 --> 00:02:37.153 Of those technologies 00:02:37.153 --> 00:02:42.535 Rather it is to actually map out who the dissidents are and see how they connect to each other 00:02:42.535 --> 00:02:44.737 Which now has become very easy to do 00:02:44.737 --> 00:02:49.008 Thanks to Facebook which organizes all of the data for the regimes 00:02:49.008 --> 00:02:52.145 They don't have to do any of the drawing boards 00:02:52.145 --> 00:02:54.947 All of that is automatically presented to them through Facebook 00:02:54.947 --> 00:02:57.586 Or alternatively for propaganda purposes 00:02:57.586 --> 00:03:02.255 For trying to push their talking points through anonymous bloggers 00:03:02.255 --> 00:03:10.897 Or by trying to upload fake videos, fake tweets, which will then split the oppositional movements 00:03:10.897 --> 00:03:12.432 As also happened in Iran 00:03:12.432 --> 00:03:17.738 Well, policy wonks in the US and certainly statesmen, 00:03:17.738 --> 00:03:20.741 Kind of see the net as a great hope. I mean 00:03:20.741 --> 00:03:29.258 Nicholas Negroponte argues ... blogger argues the net will demolish the nation state 00:03:29.258 --> 00:03:33.716 Gordon Brown says that - Prime Minister of England - we should listen to bloggers 00:03:33.716 --> 00:03:35.823 Before we elaborate foreign policy 00:03:35.823 --> 00:03:39.393 Are these examples of cyber-utopians? 00:03:39.393 --> 00:03:41.829 I would say so 00:03:41.829 --> 00:03:42.630 Again 00:03:42.630 --> 00:03:46.367 We did see Nicholas Negroponte writing a very popular book 00:03:46.367 --> 00:03:48.102 "Being Digital" in the mid 90's 00:03:48.102 --> 00:03:51.506 Where he actually predicted the demise of The Nation State 00:03:51.506 --> 00:03:57.447 And that there will be as much room for nationalism in this world as there is for smallpox, 00:03:57.447 --> 00:03:58.346 For example. 00:03:58.346 --> 00:04:02.851 Right? And of course, none of that has played out as we are begining to see 00:04:02.851 --> 00:04:08.357 Some nationalist communities have actually become much stronger because of the Internet 00:04:08.357 --> 00:04:11.326 Because they managed to find each other online 00:04:11.326 --> 00:04:14.329 Because they have access to various materials 00:04:14.329 --> 00:04:16.332 Which perpetuate their myth 00:04:16.332 --> 00:04:19.501 It was very hard to go and find the book 00:04:19.501 --> 00:04:23.072 That could deny the Armenian genocide or 00:04:23.072 --> 00:04:25.417 The holocaust or ... 00:04:25.432 --> 00:04:30.057 Hunger in Ukraine in the United Soviets 00:04:30.057 --> 00:04:33.497 Now all of those books have been digitized, put online 00:04:33.497 --> 00:04:37.172 And there a lot of nationalistic minded thoughts 00:04:37.172 --> 00:04:41.524 Who actually are finding those books and then are propagating many of these myth around us 00:04:41.524 --> 00:04:44.060 So again, this vision of the Internet 00:04:44.060 --> 00:04:45.929 As the cosmopolitan... 00:04:45.929 --> 00:04:48.932 New cosmopolitan paradise 00:04:48.932 --> 00:04:51.835 Where people will transcend all borders 00:04:51.835 --> 00:04:53.670 And be very tolerant 00:04:53.670 --> 00:04:55.339 I think that's just very premature 00:04:55.339 --> 00:05:05.315 Well, I wanna get back to how regimes use the net in order to repress dissidents 00:05:05.315 --> 00:05:10.287 You wrote - I guess you spoke recently in England - you said - and I quote 00:05:10.287 --> 00:05:16.994 "In the past it would take weeks if not months to identify how Iranian activists connect with each other. 00:05:16.994 --> 00:05:21.866 Now you know how they connect to each other by looking at Facebook page. 00:05:21.866 --> 00:05:27.138 KGB, not just KGB, used to torture to get this data - now all available on line." 00:05:27.138 --> 00:05:35.347 So. Isn't that a little exaggerated "The KGB used to torture people to get the information" 00:05:35.347 --> 00:05:37.716 That is readily available on a Facebook page? 00:05:37.716 --> 00:05:40.452 They certainly did use to torture people. 00:05:40.452 --> 00:05:43.588 So I am not... I am sure that part is not overstated. 00:05:43.588 --> 00:05:47.292 When it comes to what they can actually learn from the Internet 00:05:47.292 --> 00:05:53.298 About the nature of dissent, and their actions, where dissent is coming from 00:05:53.298 --> 00:05:55.100 I think it's quite a lot 00:05:55.100 --> 00:06:01.220 You can look at, for example, Twitter and try to do a word analisys 00:06:01.220 --> 00:06:06.643 You can actually see which terms are being used and now that Twitter also has 00:06:06.643 --> 00:06:11.008 Locational data you can actually see where people are tweeting from 00:06:11.008 --> 00:06:17.690 So you can actually map various political sentiments and feelings against the geographic location 00:06:17.690 --> 00:06:21.327 Which again is something which turns entire nations 00:06:21.327 --> 00:06:24.264 Into giant focus groups 00:06:24.264 --> 00:06:29.399 Where all you have to do is just sit and watch this data in real time and then make adjustments 00:06:29.399 --> 00:06:33.440 And make sure that you actually act preemptively 00:06:33.440 --> 00:06:40.781 Again we tend to forget that one of the reasons the soviet empire collapsed was because it just had 00:06:40.781 --> 00:06:46.286 ??? information about what was going on in their country and the region as a whole 00:06:46.286 --> 00:06:51.926 They really were not sure as to the nature of the popular sentiment at that point 00:06:51.926 --> 00:06:55.997 If there had been Twitter and Facebook we might still have Soviet Union 00:06:55.997 --> 00:06:58.795 And I think you might still have The Berlin Wall 00:06:58.795 --> 00:07:02.403 If the east germans were all on Twitter 00:07:02.403 --> 00:07:08.037 Tweeting how much they hate the regime, the regime would have known how really unpopular it was 00:07:08.037 --> 00:07:09.777 And would have taken measures much sooner 00:07:09.777 --> 00:07:17.452 I think we have to be aware of the power that this information also gives to the regimes themselves 00:07:17.452 --> 00:07:24.760 So that when you go on Twitter or you go on Facebook, in a sense you're spying on yourself 00:07:24.760 --> 00:07:27.529 Yes, you know? And you join groups... 00:07:27.529 --> 00:07:33.669 Again someone who works in this area and who comes from Belarus, 00:07:33.669 --> 00:07:38.607 Which is more or less still an authoritarian country, perhaps the only one in eastern europe 00:07:38.607 --> 00:07:43.746 I actually know that a lot of dissidents and a lot of people who are often 00:07:43.746 --> 00:07:50.753 Democratic, oppositional politics see nothing wrong with connecting with their western funders 00:07:50.753 --> 00:07:53.523 And western supporters on Facebook 00:07:53.523 --> 00:07:56.592 This creates all sorts of curious situations where 00:07:56.592 --> 00:08:03.199 It actually gives evidence that there is foreign support coming to these dissidents 00:08:03.199 --> 00:08:05.301 Because well, they are connected on facebook 00:08:05.301 --> 00:08:10.240 Why else would someone in Washington DC be connected to some random activist 00:08:10.240 --> 00:08:13.343 In Proventional Belarus or Iran or China for that matter? 00:08:13.343 --> 00:08:16.313 So, yes, we are creating a lot of that evidence ourselves 00:08:16.313 --> 00:08:19.950 You used a term in the past "Spinternet". 00:08:19.950 --> 00:08:22.719 Is that a term you coined? 00:08:22.719 --> 00:08:25.823 This is actually a term I coined 00:08:25.823 --> 00:08:26.774 Yeah, finally. 00:08:26.774 --> 00:08:27.725 What is "Spinternet"? 00:08:27.725 --> 00:08:28.826 Tell us about it 00:08:28.826 --> 00:08:34.198 In my research on how authoritarian governments themselves use the internet 00:08:34.198 --> 00:08:40.738 I've been really fascinated by how they have embraced it for propaganda purposes 00:08:40.738 --> 00:08:45.560 So you look at a country like China and the chinese government actually trains 00:08:45.560 --> 00:08:50.381 And pays close to 280,000 people 00:08:50.381 --> 00:08:59.157 Who go online identify policatlly sensitive discussions and then start arguing, trying to push 00:08:59.157 --> 00:09:01.760 The government messages to other bloggers 00:09:01.760 --> 00:09:05.364 They are called 50 cent party 00:09:05.364 --> 00:09:08.901 And 50 cent here stands for how much money they get paid 00:09:08.901 --> 00:09:13.472 For each comment, pro-government comment of course, 00:09:13.472 --> 00:09:15.207 That they leave on the internet 00:09:15.207 --> 00:09:18.208 In Russia it takes a slightly different form 00:09:18.208 --> 00:09:24.350 Instead of this very distributed network of almost 300,000 contributors 00:09:24.350 --> 00:09:27.453 They have a handful of people they really trust 00:09:30.915 --> 00:09:32.223 Who there own their own media startups 00:09:32.223 --> 00:09:33.532 Who are creating their own propaganda 00:09:33.532 --> 00:09:35.294 So they are creating social networks. 00:09:35.294 --> 00:09:37.230 They are creating their own political websites 00:09:37.230 --> 00:09:40.452 But this is all done through a handful of trustful operators 00:09:41.483 --> 00:09:43.685 Propaganda dot com 00:09:43.685 --> 00:09:44.805 Yes. 00:09:44.805 --> 00:09:50.610 We are in some sense beginning to see this very comfortable marriage between spin 00:09:50.610 --> 00:09:52.712 on the one hand and the Internet 00:09:52.712 --> 00:09:54.181 So this is Spinternet 00:09:54.181 --> 00:09:57.751 Let's just get back to Iran and the demonstrations of the green movement 00:09:57.751 --> 00:10:02.456 That recently appeared in Iranian television and images 00:10:02.456 --> 00:10:10.188 Of the supreme ruler Aiatola Ali being photographed as burning in effigy 00:10:10.188 --> 00:10:12.533 There's reason to believe those are not ... 00:10:12.533 --> 00:10:13.889 By protesters 00:10:13.889 --> 00:10:18.639 There's reason to believe that was really not an authentic photograph 00:10:18.639 --> 00:10:22.577 And was used by the regime to divide the protesters 00:10:22.577 --> 00:10:27.148 That's one of the tricks which, again, is very common 00:10:27.148 --> 00:10:28.611 Disinformation 00:10:28.611 --> 00:10:32.976 There's also this woman, Neda, who was shot. 00:10:32.976 --> 00:10:36.391 In Iran it became a symbol of the Iranian opposition 00:10:36.391 --> 00:10:41.029 The Iranian government actually made a number of documentaries 00:10:41.029 --> 00:10:44.911 Which try to argue that she actually wasn't shot 00:10:44.911 --> 00:10:47.094 That she died on her way to the hospital 00:10:47.094 --> 00:10:48.604 And that was actually staged 00:10:48.604 --> 00:10:51.640 In order to garner support in the west 00:10:51.640 --> 00:10:53.976 So, there are are ... 00:10:53.976 --> 00:10:58.514 Even the facts which are very hard to deny like the death of this woman 00:10:58.514 --> 00:11:03.673 They are trying to spin them and they are also trying to spin them in order to split the movement 00:11:03.673 --> 00:11:08.291 Because if one part of the movement sees that another part is burning 00:11:08.291 --> 00:11:14.493 Portraits of the supreme leader of course it raises a lot of questions 00:11:14.493 --> 00:11:16.299 And sometimes it does go through television 00:11:16.299 --> 00:11:19.602 Often goes through Youtube and social networking sites 00:11:19.602 --> 00:11:22.739 So no one really knows how much you can trust this 00:11:22.739 --> 00:11:24.074 And who made that video 00:11:24.074 --> 00:11:27.777 So people spend a lot of time in doubt, trying to investigate 00:11:27.777 --> 00:11:29.980 Whether they are authentic or not 00:11:29.980 --> 00:11:34.418 The State Department is certainly relying heavily on the new media 00:11:34.418 --> 00:11:39.857 At the time of the demonstrations in Iran they asked Twitter to defer 00:11:39.857 --> 00:11:42.550 A scheduled maintenance program 00:11:42.550 --> 00:11:47.464 Presumably, so that dissidents and members of the green movement could tweet each other 00:11:47.464 --> 00:11:48.766 Well, they did. 00:11:48.766 --> 00:11:50.034 Which they did. 00:11:50.034 --> 00:11:56.040 And I think the logic here is exactly what you said was to make sure that people inside Iran 00:11:56.040 --> 00:11:58.075 Can continue communicating 00:11:58.075 --> 00:12:02.480 Again it's a logic that has not yet been quantified 00:12:02.480 --> 00:12:07.652 But you've argued there's a downside to this because it makes it appear that Twitter 00:12:07.652 --> 00:12:10.154 Is a tool of the United States Government 00:12:10.154 --> 00:12:12.924 This is what you wrote on the subject. You said 00:12:12.924 --> 00:12:16.723 "It is certainly a good thing that Obama's youthful bureaucrats 00:12:16.723 --> 00:12:19.965 Have bonded with the brightest creative minds of Silicon Valley. 00:12:19.965 --> 00:12:23.368 However, the kind of message that it sends to the rest of the world - 00:12:23.368 --> 00:12:27.506 i.e. that Google, Facebook and Twitter are now just extensions 00:12:27.506 --> 00:12:31.243 Of the U.S. State Department - may simply endanger the lives of those 00:12:31.243 --> 00:12:34.613 Who use such services in authoritarian countries." 00:12:35.314 --> 00:12:41.353 Now, if regimes crackdown on Facebook in its entirety 00:12:41.353 --> 00:12:43.222 Or political Facebook users 00:12:43.222 --> 00:12:50.796 They run the risk - To single out Facebook - They run the risk that social uses of the site will be angered 00:12:50.796 --> 00:12:55.702 Against the regime, because their favorite networking site 00:12:55.702 --> 00:12:57.437 No longer exists, so there's a risk in that, isn't it? 00:12:59.268 --> 00:13:00.388 Sure. Let's try to compact this 00:13:00.388 --> 00:13:01.508 Because there are several layers here 00:13:01.508 --> 00:13:06.479 Yes, if we had 50 million iranians who are all very 00:13:06.479 --> 00:13:09.482 Actively communicating on Twitter and the State Department 00:13:09.482 --> 00:13:12.729 Was absolutely sure that by... You know 00:13:12.729 --> 00:13:16.770 If Twitter goes down, then those people wouldn't be able to communicate 00:13:16.770 --> 00:13:22.329 I would see a lot of logic to them reaching out to the Twitter founders 00:13:22.329 --> 00:13:25.466 And actually asking them to delay their maintenance 00:13:25.466 --> 00:13:28.068 What actually happened is that we are not sure that 00:13:28.068 --> 00:13:32.440 There were millions, even hundreds of Iranians on Twitter 00:13:35.059 --> 00:13:37.678 Al Jazeera tried do a fact checking during the protests to verify 00:13:37.678 --> 00:13:41.197 How many people were on the ground on Twitter in Iran 00:13:41.197 --> 00:13:43.101 And how many of them were twittering 00:13:43.101 --> 00:13:45.086 And they could only locate sixty accounts 00:13:45.086 --> 00:13:48.590 And that number fell actually to six once they started 00:13:48.590 --> 00:13:50.658 Cracking down on communications 00:13:50.658 --> 00:13:54.496 A lot of twittering was done by Iranians in the diaspora 00:13:54.496 --> 00:13:58.937 Those who are not in Iran and those who sympathizing with Iran 00:13:58.937 --> 00:13:59.968 From the outside 00:13:59.968 --> 00:14:05.040 So, given that, I find it really troubling 00:14:05.040 --> 00:14:11.513 That the american government actually endorsed the use of Twitter 00:14:11.513 --> 00:14:13.382 For such political uses 00:14:13.382 --> 00:14:16.719 Because it creates a lot of very uncomfortable links 00:14:16.719 --> 00:14:20.756 Which then the Iranian government and the Chinese government 00:14:20.756 --> 00:14:24.026 Also are exploiting for their own purposes 00:14:24.026 --> 00:14:29.699 They say that it was you who funded Twitter and who asked 00:14:29.699 --> 00:14:32.969 Twitter to stay active because that's how you wanted to 00:14:32.969 --> 00:14:35.479 Foment another revolution in Iran 00:14:35.479 --> 00:14:37.631 Yes. Let's move on to China 00:14:37.631 --> 00:14:43.907 In January, Hillary Clinton said she thought we ought to... Policy of the United States 00:14:43.907 --> 00:14:48.743 To have a single Internet and it was the cornerstone of a 00:14:48.743 --> 00:14:53.226 Her foreign policy agenda 00:14:53.226 --> 00:14:55.092 You read the statement 00:14:55.092 --> 00:14:58.795 She can ??? america foreign policy into the digital age 00:14:58.795 --> 00:15:05.369 And she said there ought to be an investigation of China's attacks on Google 00:15:05.369 --> 00:15:08.669 Or chinese based attacks on Google 00:15:08.669 --> 00:15:10.861 Which was doing business in China 00:15:10.861 --> 00:15:14.708 And which had said would no longer filter 00:15:14.708 --> 00:15:16.638 Search requests 00:15:16.638 --> 00:15:19.485 What do you make of all that? 00:15:19.485 --> 00:15:20.300 Well, I think... 00:15:20.300 --> 00:15:24.622 Again, it's very rare to put the Internet ahead of other 00:15:24.622 --> 00:15:27.962 Foreign policy interests that United States has 00:15:27.962 --> 00:15:31.329 Because trying to campaign on behalf of a single Internet 00:15:31.329 --> 00:15:37.135 Means that we do want to have democracy and strong freedom of expression 00:15:37.135 --> 00:15:40.605 Laws... First amendment everywhere 00:15:40.605 --> 00:15:43.380 And we know that simply is not going to happen 00:15:43.380 --> 00:15:46.545 It's not going to happen in countries like Egypt, or countries like Jordan 00:15:46.545 --> 00:15:50.949 Where we do have legitimate interests and we are not going to simply 00:15:50.949 --> 00:15:54.353 Abandon people we have been supporting there for decades 00:15:54.353 --> 00:15:56.555 in order to promote rule of law 00:15:56.555 --> 00:15:58.390 That's just not gonna happen 00:15:58.390 --> 00:16:01.093 Whether it is a matter of tweets, a matter of blogs, 00:16:01.093 --> 00:16:02.094 A matter of social networks 00:16:02.094 --> 00:16:04.975 So, it was actually very interesting that 00:16:04.975 --> 00:16:08.969 In the same way that Hillary Clinton made her Internet Freedom speech 00:16:08.969 --> 00:16:12.805 Jordan announced a new internet censorship law 00:16:12.805 --> 00:16:16.476 Which Hillary Clinton didn't at all mention in the speech 00:16:16.476 --> 00:16:19.882 So I think a lot of that will just be a continuation of 00:16:19.882 --> 00:16:23.450 Politics as usual and trying to figure out which states are 00:16:23.450 --> 00:16:27.387 More conducive to american foreign policy interests 00:16:27.387 --> 00:16:31.691 ??? and then trying to see how the Internet would fit 00:16:31.691 --> 00:16:35.729 But I don't think that they would be able to convince 00:16:35.729 --> 00:16:37.764 The chinese government 00:16:37.764 --> 00:16:41.068 That they should stop censoring, they should stop filtering 00:16:41.068 --> 00:16:45.639 Because the chinese have, as they think, legitimate interests 00:16:45.639 --> 00:16:50.347 And frankly speaking, the kind of movements that are happening 00:16:50.347 --> 00:16:53.547 In the space of western europe, or in countries like Australia 00:16:53.547 --> 00:16:57.218 Which are begining to censor and filter the Internet much heavily 00:16:57.218 --> 00:16:59.253 Actually play to China's advantage 00:16:59.253 --> 00:17:03.558 Because they point their fingers to Australia, France, Jordany and Britain 00:17:03.558 --> 00:17:06.561 Who are also now beginning to censor ??? 00:17:06.561 --> 00:17:09.297 They say "well, everyone is doing that, everyone has an interest ... 00:17:09.297 --> 00:17:10.687 ... why can't we do it?" 00:17:10.687 --> 00:17:12.934 About five years ago, Google, 00:17:12.934 --> 00:17:16.571 Although it's management was divided over the issue 00:17:16.571 --> 00:17:20.809 Decided to enter China, they formed google.cn, 00:17:20.809 --> 00:17:22.744 The chinese operation and 00:17:22.744 --> 00:17:25.681 China doesn't actually censor them, am I correct? 00:17:25.681 --> 00:17:29.184 They rely on the countries doing business there 00:17:29.184 --> 00:17:31.620 As a condition of doing business to filter 00:17:31.620 --> 00:17:34.156 And that was the deal that Google made 00:17:34.156 --> 00:17:38.460 Now Google said that they don't want to filter anymore 00:17:38.460 --> 00:17:44.266 And that preceded quite closely the attacks, the hacks 00:17:44.266 --> 00:17:49.839 On Gmail, particularly dissidents who happen to have Gmail accounts 00:17:49.839 --> 00:17:56.522 Did Google make a mistake in going to China in the first place? 00:17:56.537 --> 00:18:02.385 Well, I think they did make a mistake, however 00:18:02.385 --> 00:18:05.765 They should have been more cautious and more realistic 00:18:05.765 --> 00:18:08.124 As to what to expect from the chinese government 00:18:08.124 --> 00:18:12.062 They thought that they had entered the deal 00:18:12.062 --> 00:18:16.066 Where the chinese government would stick to their part of the contract 00:18:16.066 --> 00:18:19.303 And would leave Google alone, to make money and 00:18:19.303 --> 00:18:22.806 Capitalize on the most profitable market in the world 00:18:22.806 --> 00:18:25.442 They have 36% of the market share there 00:18:25.442 --> 00:18:28.579 Yes, but there are news services, 00:18:28.579 --> 00:18:31.494 They are very active in the music business, for example in China 00:18:31.494 --> 00:18:34.533 ??? the music business elsewhere 00:18:34.533 --> 00:18:38.356 They had a lot of hopes for their new mobile phone 00:18:38.356 --> 00:18:39.857 Which could be sold in China 00:18:39.857 --> 00:18:42.994 But the bottom line is that the chinese government itself 00:18:42.994 --> 00:18:47.231 does not have a very fixed coherent strategy 00:18:47.231 --> 00:18:49.334 When it comes to controlling the Internet 00:18:49.334 --> 00:18:51.741 Because the Internet itself is in flux 00:18:51.741 --> 00:18:56.041 New services keep appearing, people find different ways to organize 00:18:56.041 --> 00:18:59.978 And the chinese government always has to find new ways to control them 00:18:59.978 --> 00:19:05.673 So, every month, they have been imposing new demands on Google 00:19:05.673 --> 00:19:09.288 I think that at some point, particularly when the cyber-attacks happened 00:19:09.288 --> 00:19:12.658 Google just ran out of patience and said "that's enough!" 00:19:12.658 --> 00:19:15.661 We either want to get the US Government behind us 00:19:15.661 --> 00:19:18.264 And try to frame it as a political issue 00:19:18.264 --> 00:19:21.967 To gain more grounds in negotiating, or 00:19:21.967 --> 00:19:24.249 We'll just get out of China altogether 00:19:24.249 --> 00:19:30.843 In your view is the flap a comercial issue, a human rights issue 00:19:30.843 --> 00:19:32.578 Or a national security issue? 00:19:32.578 --> 00:19:33.980 For the United States ? 00:19:33.980 --> 00:19:35.615 For the United States I think 00:19:35.615 --> 00:19:39.586 There's definitely this layer of spionage 00:19:39.586 --> 00:19:45.193 Where, yes, Google does traffic into a lot of sensitive data 00:19:45.193 --> 00:19:48.295 Because it runs the most popular email service in the world 00:19:48.295 --> 00:19:51.598 And that will continue no matter what, whether they are in China 00:19:51.598 --> 00:19:54.267 Whether they seize their operations there completely 00:19:54.267 --> 00:19:57.571 So I think that the spionage layer will be there forever 00:19:57.571 --> 00:20:02.342 In terms of Human Rights issue it's very hard to say 00:20:02.342 --> 00:20:07.181 Again, look at Google in India, where also there are also a lot of laws 00:20:07.181 --> 00:20:10.451 And Google actually runs a very popular social network 00:20:10.451 --> 00:20:11.986 In India called Orkut 00:20:11.986 --> 00:20:13.554 Which they do censor heavily 00:20:15.456 --> 00:20:17.358 And a lot of people working on freedom of expression in India 00:20:17.358 --> 00:20:22.700 Actually accuse Google of censoring much more heavily in India than the Indian newspapers do, right? 00:20:22.700 --> 00:20:27.778 Because they just want to make sure they don't break any laws 00:20:27.778 --> 00:20:31.386 And I guess it all boils down to how they interpret the local laws 00:20:34.132 --> 00:20:35.905 Or whose ox is being gored? 00:20:35.905 --> 00:20:37.679 Evgeny, you have quite a gift for the political satire 00:20:37.679 --> 00:20:41.650 And in a London speech you recently brought down the house with this one. 00:20:41.650 --> 00:20:44.152 Which I want to share with our viewers 00:20:44.152 --> 00:20:45.936 This is what you said: 00:20:45.936 --> 00:20:50.492 I think the biggest conceptual pitfall that cyber-utopians made 00:20:50.492 --> 00:20:52.327 Is when it comes to digital natives, 00:20:52.327 --> 00:20:53.896 People who have grown up online 00:20:53.896 --> 00:20:56.664 You often hear about cyber activism 00:20:56.664 --> 00:20:59.218 How people are getting more active because of the Internet 00:20:59.218 --> 00:21:01.370 You rarely hear bout cyber hedonism, for example 00:21:01.370 --> 00:21:02.972 How people are becoming passive 00:21:02.972 --> 00:21:06.442 Why? Because they somehow assume that the Internet is going 00:21:06.442 --> 00:21:09.745 Be the catalyst of change that will push young people into the streets 00:21:09.745 --> 00:21:12.448 When in fact it will actually be the new opium for the masses 00:21:12.448 --> 00:21:15.551 Which will keep the same people in their rooms downloading pornography 00:21:15.551 --> 00:21:20.857 Now, do you believe that the Internet "is going to become the new opium for the masses..." 00:21:20.857 --> 00:21:24.946 "... which will keep the same people in their rooms downloading pornography"? 00:21:24.946 --> 00:21:27.030 Or you're just being provocative? 00:21:27.030 --> 00:21:29.266 I think it is definitely an option 00:21:29.266 --> 00:21:31.067 And I think... 00:21:31.867 --> 00:21:37.206 When we talk about the role that the Internet plays in authoritarian states 00:21:37.206 --> 00:21:42.479 We tend to forget our own national discourse about the Internet 00:21:42.479 --> 00:21:46.401 When you talk about the Internet in the context of the United States 00:21:46.401 --> 00:21:52.035 We do raise concerns whether is Google making us stupid, 00:21:52.035 --> 00:21:54.760 Whether young people are getting politically disengaged, 00:21:54.760 --> 00:21:57.828 Whether they are reading less and less political news 00:21:57.828 --> 00:22:02.366 There's a very elite debate about the social and political implications of 00:22:02.366 --> 00:22:06.184 The Internet and a lot of people are voicing legitimate concerns 00:22:06.184 --> 00:22:10.175 When we try to transpose that debate to the context of China and Iran 00:22:10.175 --> 00:22:14.126 We completely forget about this negative social and political concerns 00:22:14.126 --> 00:22:15.947 We are raising in our own context 00:22:15.947 --> 00:22:19.684 In things that the only role for the Internet in China would be 00:22:19.684 --> 00:22:23.822 To liberate people and make them read reports from the Human Rights Watch 00:22:23.822 --> 00:22:29.828 And download them everyday instead of downloading films, clips 00:22:29.828 --> 00:22:31.163 and, yes, pornography 00:22:31.163 --> 00:22:33.445 But that's what also happens on our own Internet 00:22:33.445 --> 00:22:36.468 So maybe they prefer pornography than Human Rights Watch 00:22:36.468 --> 00:22:39.572 I think that's a legitimate thing to say, yes 00:22:39.572 --> 00:22:41.907 That's just how interest works. And that's... 00:22:41.907 --> 00:22:45.077 The problem in countries like China or Iran is 00:22:45.077 --> 00:22:49.699 A lack of strong civil society and any kind of political culture 00:22:49.699 --> 00:22:54.887 And you can't build a political culture just by letting people do 00:22:54.887 --> 00:22:56.723 Whatever they want to do online because chances are 00:22:56.723 --> 00:23:00.159 They may actually run away from that political culture altogether 00:23:00.159 --> 00:23:03.463 And it will be much harder to reach for exact those dissidents 00:23:03.463 --> 00:23:04.631 That we were so concerned about 00:23:04.631 --> 00:23:08.568 Chinese may feel that if there were a free and open Internet 00:23:08.568 --> 00:23:11.638 A single Internet, what is what Secretary Clinton wants to see 00:23:11.638 --> 00:23:16.209 That what they are being exposed to is simply anti-China propaganda 00:23:16.209 --> 00:23:20.547 Generated by United States or someone else and they won't be interested 00:23:20.547 --> 00:23:23.083 I think so, again 00:23:23.083 --> 00:23:27.087 Because a lot of media conceptions still happens through traditional media 00:23:27.087 --> 00:23:28.923 Who do still play a significant role 00:23:28.923 --> 00:23:32.059 And those are to some degrees still controlled in China 00:23:32.059 --> 00:23:34.895 And they do manufacture a lot of program messages 00:23:34.895 --> 00:23:36.882 There's this culture of suspicion 00:23:36.882 --> 00:23:40.504 And I think the more Google's tries ??? 00:23:40.504 --> 00:23:45.873 the National Security Agency, the more concerns people in China and Iran will have 00:23:45.873 --> 00:23:50.349 About what actually is the role that Google is playing in all this 00:23:50.349 --> 00:23:52.981 And I think some of those concerns are legitimate 00:23:52.981 --> 00:23:57.452 Suppose Google goes out of China, do you think they would 00:23:57.452 --> 00:24:00.589 Still be exposed to cyber-attacks? 00:24:00.589 --> 00:24:03.260 That are chinese based? 00:24:03.260 --> 00:24:04.092 For sure 00:24:04.092 --> 00:24:08.664 The reason for cyber-attacks is not the fact that Google 00:24:08.664 --> 00:24:10.265 Is not censoring enough 00:24:10.265 --> 00:24:13.769 The reason for cyberattacks is because they have become 00:24:13.769 --> 00:24:19.328 A repository of sensitive emails for all over the world 00:24:19.328 --> 00:24:22.021 Because they simply offer the most reliable email service 00:24:22.021 --> 00:24:25.781 Which is comercially available for free 00:24:25.781 --> 00:24:28.987 Well, there were other US companies who were attacked as well, 00:24:28.987 --> 00:24:30.659 Some doesn't even do business in China 00:24:30.659 --> 00:24:33.089 At about the same time, is that right? 00:24:33.089 --> 00:24:38.294 Sure, we don't know whether it was part of the same attack 00:24:38.294 --> 00:24:40.597 Whether they were separate groups 00:24:40.597 --> 00:24:44.916 It's very hard to say whether those attacks have anything in common 00:24:44.916 --> 00:24:50.073 But again, it was done, as far as I can understand, for spionage reasons 00:24:50.073 --> 00:24:55.245 Stealing sensitive data, and they were trying to sell it, 00:24:55.245 --> 00:24:58.849 And the case of the chinese dissidents, people stealing their data 00:24:58.849 --> 00:25:01.727 We don't know if any of the private emails 00:25:01.727 --> 00:25:04.521 Of american diplomats were also targeted 00:25:04.521 --> 00:25:07.825 They just didn't come out, it may as well be the case 00:25:07.825 --> 00:25:11.862 We don't even know that it was the Chinese government 00:25:11.862 --> 00:25:13.097 That launched these attacks 00:25:13.097 --> 00:25:15.099 It may have been private interests in China 00:25:15.099 --> 00:25:17.401 That wanted to steal intelectual properties 00:25:17.401 --> 00:25:23.474 And again, it looks that the attacks were not very sophisticated 00:25:23.474 --> 00:25:28.713 They targeted particular employees who were working for Google China 00:25:28.713 --> 00:25:35.487 And it seems that some of them were really just doing some ??? intelligence 00:25:35.487 --> 00:25:39.925 And they knew what are the kind of emails that those people likely to open 00:25:39.925 --> 00:25:41.760 And click on links 00:25:41.760 --> 00:25:44.196 It is social engineering 00:25:44.196 --> 00:25:49.735 Evgeny Morozov, we have to wrap up and I have a question for you 00:25:49.735 --> 00:25:56.041 Are we heading for techno-utopia or to a digital dictatorship? 00:25:56.041 --> 00:26:00.246 I think we already live in techno- utopia, so I think we are already there 00:26:00.246 --> 00:26:05.164 But I think those two are not mutually exclusive 00:26:05.164 --> 00:26:08.387 So yes, the governments will continue doing their evil thing 00:26:08.387 --> 00:26:11.757 While we will continue thinking that everything is rosie 00:26:11.757 --> 00:26:13.359 And we shouldn't be concerned 00:26:13.359 --> 00:26:17.030 Evgeny Morozov, thank you so much for coming by 00:26:17.030 --> 00:26:18.197 That was perfectly wonderful! 00:26:18.197 --> 00:26:19.265 Thanks for having me 00:26:19.265 --> 00:26:21.415 And thank you for coming by 00:26:21.415 --> 00:26:22.773 Tune in next week 00:26:22.773 --> 00:26:24.866 For more on the Digital Age 00:26:24.866 --> 00:26:26.501 For the Digital Age 00:26:26.501 --> 00:26:28.787 I am Jim Zirin, good night 00:26:28.787 --> 00:26:30.499 And all the best