1 00:00:42,658 --> 00:00:46,745 There's also American Indians, if I may say, some tribes... 2 00:00:46,745 --> 00:00:53,665 - So, in America, democracy... - The chief who was elected by tribesmen was just there so that complaints could be made 3 00:00:53,665 --> 00:00:55,058 but they really had no power. 4 00:00:55,058 --> 00:00:58,355 - That's great ! The American Indians, it's another example of Democracy 5 00:00:58,355 --> 00:01:02,674 other than Athens ; but we're more on the Constitutional process here but... yes it's still very interesting 6 00:01:02,674 --> 00:01:07,643 Another example of Democracy other than Athens, which is a Big example of 200 years, 7 00:01:07,643 --> 00:01:10,476 that was something sturdy where they were organised and the organisation 8 00:01:10,476 --> 00:01:15,398 would be interesting for us today... It was namely the Iroquois, but it was almost 9 00:01:15,398 --> 00:01:22,550 all American Indian tribes, so let's just say the American Indians. So they had chiefs, but these chiefs 10 00:01:22,550 --> 00:01:25,913 only had power during war time. Only during a war did the chief have power. 11 00:01:25,913 --> 00:01:31,393 But in peace time, the chiefs had no power. So, they had the feathers, 12 00:01:31,393 --> 00:01:37,073 they had the throne, or at least a special seat for the chief... In truth, it was as if the Indians 13 00:01:37,073 --> 00:01:42,513 were afraid of those who steal power. And so it's as if they planned everything so that the position of 14 00:01:42,513 --> 00:01:47,113 chief existed, so that someone could be in it, so that those who wanted to steal the power 15 00:01:47,113 --> 00:01:51,073 just couldn't go and take it, since there was already a chief... But the chief, he's there, 16 00:01:51,073 --> 00:01:56,753 he has the spot of Chief, but he has no power. He has no power and we're going to show him every day 17 00:01:56,753 --> 00:02:00,953 that he has no power. He has to give us presents. First, when he is nominated Chief, 18 00:02:00,953 --> 00:02:04,353 we are going to nominate him and he can't refuse - that's why it worked - 19 00:02:04,353 --> 00:02:07,726 and then once he's nominated, he had to give us presents. And all day long, 20 00:02:07,726 --> 00:02:12,228 the chief, there, he talks, he negociates, he talks, and he goes on an on... and we walk by him 21 00:02:12,228 --> 00:02:17,571 without even giving him a look. We just ignore him. We ... just to show him that he's the chief, 22 00:02:17,571 --> 00:02:23,187 but he's not a real chief, you see. It's strange isn't it ? You see there all the procedures 23 00:02:23,187 --> 00:02:27,926 that the American Indians put in place to protect themselves against abuse of power. 24 00:02:27,926 --> 00:02:31,535 It's something else than the Athenians, but it's of the same... it's of the same family, that's what it really is. 25 00:02:31,535 --> 00:02:35,773 It's interesting for us... So, in my opinion, it's less sturdy. I don't see well how 26 00:02:35,773 --> 00:02:39,209 we could apply the same thing. You'll see that the Athenian Democracy, 27 00:02:39,209 --> 00:02:42,924 there are many ideas who come along and you just think: now that's interesting, and this is too, and that also... 28 00:02:42,924 --> 00:02:47,140 There are many things that we can just take as they are from the Athenians whereas from the American Indians... 29 00:02:47,140 --> 00:02:52,073 I don't see well, or I don't see us well with a chief just there and talking, and we'd just walk on by, ignoring him. 30 00:02:52,073 --> 00:03:02,615 That's good for small societies, really small societies... So where was I ? So... 31 00:03:02,615 --> 00:03:11,856 I'll just pick up my thread again... I had stopped at the election. 200 years ago, everyone knew that an election 32 00:03:11,856 --> 00:03:16,036 was aristocratic. Today, we completly forgot that, because every day 33 00:03:16,036 --> 00:03:21,562 we are reminded that an election equals democracy, democracy equals an election... 200 years ago, if we had said 34 00:03:21,562 --> 00:03:25,696 to someone, or to Montesquieu, or to Rousseau, if you had said 35 00:03:25,696 --> 00:03:32,290 to any political thinker of the 18th, 17th, 16th century... or even back 2000, 2500 years, if you had said 36 00:03:32,290 --> 00:03:36,146 to someone, a political person: "election equals democracy", he would have said: "This guy's not feeling well, is he?" 37 00:03:36,146 --> 00:03:42,306 Everyone knew that election was aristocratic. By definition ! 38 00:03:42,306 --> 00:03:47,786 Election, to elect, that means to choose! It's true, isn't it ? Electing is choosing; 39 00:03:47,786 --> 00:03:52,346 and choosing, you're not going to choose the worst: you'll choose the best. By definition, 40 00:03:52,346 --> 00:03:58,792 you choose the best. And the best, that's aristos. Aristos means the best (in greek). Aristos, it's... 41 00:03:58,792 --> 00:04:06,877 Aristocracy, it's the power of the best. So... it's not surprising ! It's not surprising 42 00:04:06,877 --> 00:04:13,671 that with a regime founded on an election, you have an aristoractic regime at startion. Meaning, at start, 43 00:04:13,671 --> 00:04:18,433 you effectively choose the best ones and then, slowly but surely, there are biases, and we get off track 44 00:04:18,433 --> 00:04:23,193 and don't elect the best anymore, we start electing a small cast... Aristotle at the time said: "All aristocracies 45 00:04:23,193 --> 00:04:29,972 deviate, degrade, degenerate into an oligarchy." That means that power goes to a small number of people, 46 00:04:29,972 --> 00:04:35,912 but not the best. If we manage to... And this we can maybe achieve together... It's...great indeed. 47 00:04:35,912 --> 00:04:38,352 Really interesting because we could maybe manage to imagine a better system 48 00:04:38,352 --> 00:04:44,952 than democracy ! An aristocratic system so well knitted, locked down, thought through that we would always have the best ! 49 00:04:44,952 --> 00:04:48,639 The best between us all ! And they should prove every day 50 00:04:48,639 --> 00:04:52,592 that they are the best! And when they aren't the best anymore, they get fired! Then we only have the best, 51 00:04:52,592 --> 00:04:57,231 and no longer inherited aristocracy, because that's just a mortal drift. 52 00:04:57,231 --> 00:05:01,746 When aristocracy is inherited, it's no longer the best! The child of the best one... 53 00:05:01,746 --> 00:05:04,962 Or maybe the best one, he was good at warfare... 54 00:05:04,962 --> 00:05:08,596 We judged that he was the best, alright, but his child, there is simply no reason 55 00:05:08,596 --> 00:05:11,836 that he also be the best... When it starts to be inherited, the system efficiency collapses. 56 00:05:11,836 --> 00:05:15,316 But we could imagine... I'll try to stay brief about aristocracy, 57 00:05:15,316 --> 00:05:20,716 but keep it in mind somewhere. I am, almost against my initiative, 58 00:05:20,716 --> 00:05:25,556 through conferences, the one who defends the random draw and even the purest form of Athenian Democracy, 59 00:05:25,556 --> 00:05:29,796 to show that it's possible, that it wasn't a bad system, and that there are many things to learn from it. 60 00:05:29,796 --> 00:05:33,556 But I am just as able to imagine an improved representative government, 61 00:05:33,556 --> 00:05:38,725 or even an aristocracy, why not ? I'm sure I'm going to make you jump 62 00:05:38,725 --> 00:05:42,254 at the idea, but I'm pushing the limits just to show you that I am open to ideas. 63 00:05:42,254 --> 00:05:47,318 Why not even consider a royal system ! But not a royal system like with Versaille, 64 00:05:47,318 --> 00:05:52,547 because that was just awful, but a royal system with a royal constitution 65 00:05:52,547 --> 00:05:57,678 where we have thought things completly through... us ! Everyone, not just some elite cast. 66 00:05:57,678 --> 00:06:00,924 They musn't write the rules for themselves. But if the People 67 00:06:00,924 --> 00:06:09,914 invent sturdy rules, clever enough so that the king - because the People want a king - never crosses the line, 68 00:06:09,914 --> 00:06:14,837 and when he does, we get rid of him and put another one instead. 69 00:06:14,837 --> 00:06:20,798 That doesn't bother me at all. What I'm interested in, what I'm looking for, is a sturdy regime 70 00:06:20,798 --> 00:06:26,789 that can last, that protects us from abuse of power. Democracy just happens to work really well 71 00:06:26,789 --> 00:06:32,222 on that point. I really must get to talk about the... We'll soon put up a schematic, 72 00:06:32,222 --> 00:06:35,566 and I'll talk to you about Athenian Democacy; and there are many useful things 73 00:06:35,566 --> 00:06:38,353 against oligarchy in Athenian Democracy. Yes ? 74 00:06:38,353 --> 00:06:40,721 - If it was so good, why did they move on to something else ? Did they abandon it or... 75 00:06:40,721 --> 00:06:45,551 - Ah ! That's one of the objections. I can answer that one because it's really short 76 00:06:45,551 --> 00:06:51,216 There will be objections of course, but most are: if it was so swell, 77 00:06:51,216 --> 00:06:56,464 we would have carried on. So wait, if it was great for the 99%, it wasn't for the 1%. 78 00:06:56,464 --> 00:07:01,340 And the 1%, they are rich. They were the philosophers, the Platos, the Aristotles, 79 00:07:01,340 --> 00:07:05,334 all those people talked about democracy, described democracy, but Hated democracy. 80 00:07:05,334 --> 00:07:10,721 Plato, Aristotle and almost all philosophers ! Only the sophists 81 00:07:10,721 --> 00:07:15,365 actually liked democracy and taught people to... taught them how to speak, taught them how to 82 00:07:15,365 --> 00:07:21,263 debate and defend. They were democrats and made people pay for their teaching. 83 00:07:21,263 --> 00:07:25,443 Plato actually made fun of it. He mocked: "Yes, those are the ones teaching people how to speak, 84 00:07:25,443 --> 00:07:29,808 teach them how to lie ?" No, they didn't teach them how to lie; that was just Plato 85 00:07:29,808 --> 00:07:33,198 saying that because he didn't like democracy. Sophists taught how to express oneself, expressing 86 00:07:33,198 --> 00:07:37,563 ideas and defending your point of view, by putting your arguments in the correct light... 87 00:07:37,563 --> 00:07:44,854 And most philosophers were against democracy. So for 200 years, 88 00:07:44,854 --> 00:07:48,186 the Athenians were armed. This is not just some detail, they weren't just armed, they were armed 89 00:07:48,186 --> 00:07:50,902 and they were soldiers. That is equiped and know how to use their weapons. 90 00:07:50,902 --> 00:07:54,691 And to me, it's one of the soul conditions. I'm very sorry, 91 00:07:54,691 --> 00:07:57,106 I am myself a pacifist and unarmed; I am completly naked in that sens, 92 00:07:57,106 --> 00:08:01,982 I don't have a weapon... So I was educated that way and I was completly... modeled to fit 93 00:08:01,982 --> 00:08:06,115 and now I'm fifty and I get the feeling that I might have been cheated here. 94 00:08:06,115 --> 00:08:11,502 Really! Because you just keep on seeing unarmed people getting butchered on a regular basis! 95 00:08:11,502 --> 00:08:16,146 You have to listen to Guillemin! I won't talk more on the subject, but those aren't words in vain. 96 00:08:16,146 --> 00:08:21,342 There are periods where things are calm, and just when we are convinced we need to stop 97 00:08:21,342 --> 00:08:26,742 oppression by saying: "Enough Oppression !" Those who aren't armed end up regretting it dearly. 98 00:08:26,742 --> 00:08:31,053 Enough on that subject; it's an interesting source of debate, because many people... 99 00:08:31,053 --> 00:08:36,998 progressive people, of the left wing and who have said no to weapons: 100 00:08:36,998 --> 00:08:40,862 "It must be non-violent, absolutely" And when I say what I just said, they answer "What on earth is he saying ?!" 101 00:08:40,862 --> 00:08:44,474 And I know, yes, I was like that myself before... but I'm starting to think that... 102 00:08:44,474 --> 00:08:49,542 Enough, it's a debate! Maybe I'm wrong, but we'll see, we'll talk about it. Anyhow, those people 103 00:08:49,542 --> 00:08:54,542 who were armed managed for over 200 years to impose democracy by getting rid of oligarchic systems. 104 00:08:54,542 --> 00:08:57,782 And when one came along, they just finished it brutally or they put... 105 00:08:57,782 --> 00:09:01,102 Well they didn't brutally end it everytime, they could also ostracise it; we'll see, it's a procedure. 106 00:09:01,102 --> 00:09:04,861 So they got rid of it, but they were busy with it, kept watch, they had their white blood cells. 107 00:09:04,861 --> 00:09:12,756 So for 200 years the philosophers methodically wrote hundreds of pages 108 00:09:12,756 --> 00:09:23,205 to explain that the heart, the central element, the sine qua non condition of democracy, 109 00:09:23,205 --> 00:09:29,942 was the random draw. Perfectly indentified by the philosophers, and that's my explanation. 110 00:09:29,942 --> 00:09:35,062 Athenians, they made... well we could also plan for it in our own democracy, 111 00:09:35,062 --> 00:09:38,502 we should fear that threat: that is that they had jealous neighbours or enemies around them, 112 00:09:38,502 --> 00:09:42,422 so the rich actually made alliance with outsiders. The army of Philippe of Macedonia became a monster, 113 00:09:42,422 --> 00:09:48,114 and it became invicincible for them. The ended up loosing the war. But that's secondary, 114 00:09:48,114 --> 00:09:51,458 it's not a necessary conclusion, it's not... It's not an obligation: it could have not happened. 115 00:09:51,458 --> 00:09:55,126 It's contigent. Anyhow, it just happens they lost the war. They lost a war 116 00:09:55,126 --> 00:10:01,767 when the ideological matter, the intellectual basis for it never to happen again was there. 117 00:10:01,767 --> 00:10:08,269 They had understood. After 200 years, the thieves, the power cravers who had never been able to steal away power 118 00:10:08,269 --> 00:10:13,052 for 200 years through a random draw... That's my explanation. It's "chouardesc" as I said before. 119 00:10:13,052 --> 00:10:17,789 I'm not backing what I'm telling you now with a book. Well, it's what I read in books 120 00:10:17,789 --> 00:10:22,712 that makes me guess this, but it's my explanation. Maybe I'm missing other explanations, surely, 121 00:10:22,712 --> 00:10:28,749 because I'm not omniscient, evidently. It seems to me that if democracy 122 00:10:28,749 --> 00:10:37,201 never appeared again, it's because the central process, essential 123 00:10:37,201 --> 00:10:42,681 - when you'll see the schematic, it will appear that it's essential -, it's central procedure 124 00:10:42,681 --> 00:10:46,675 had been very correctly identified by the philosophers, who all talked clearly about it. All these philosophers 125 00:10:46,675 --> 00:10:55,777 point very clearly to random draw as the ground rule for democracy. 126 00:10:55,777 --> 00:10:58,888 And if you take out random draw and that you put an election instead, it's no longer a democracy. 127 00:10:58,888 --> 00:11:01,768 - My comment is not to say that it wasn't a good thing, my comment 128 00:11:01,768 --> 00:11:05,994 is to try and make you understand that it takes a lot of effort... 129 00:11:05,994 --> 00:11:07,851 - Yes, yes I know that it will ask for a lot of efforts, I'm quite sure of it... 130 00:11:07,851 --> 00:11:10,685 - ...and that human nature maybe tends to go towards where we are now... 131 00:11:10,685 --> 00:11:12,054 - Yes, yes, yes absolutely! 132 00:11:12,054 --> 00:11:13,494 - ... and that it has always been that way, because we are... 133 00:11:13,494 --> 00:11:17,163 - So maybe you're right, I hope not. So I'll repeat with the microphone 134 00:11:17,163 --> 00:11:23,850 so that all can hear. The objection points that it's no about saying democracy is bad. 135 00:11:23,850 --> 00:11:29,078 It's more to say that since it never appeared again, maybe it's 136 00:11:29,078 --> 00:11:33,973 in human nature to not be in democracy and to be more in an oligarchy, and that it strives for... 137 00:11:33,973 --> 00:11:37,363 So I really hope that you are wrong. Maybe you're right, I know that. 138 00:11:37,363 --> 00:11:42,758 And I know, I know well, that it's not about imposing democracy. 139 00:11:42,758 --> 00:11:45,490 If we have... It's like in communism, if you impose communism, 140 00:11:45,490 --> 00:11:47,958 it just ends in a blood bath... Every time we impose it, it ends in an utter blood bath ! 141 00:11:47,958 --> 00:11:53,678 We'll have democracy only when we'll have it. First, when we'll stop understanding 142 00:11:53,678 --> 00:11:57,438 "democracy" as it's opposite. So we first must learn what we're actually talking about, so we must absolutely 143 00:11:57,438 --> 00:12:02,115 put the words back in their place, and that we want to ! We must have weighed the pro's and 144 00:12:02,115 --> 00:12:06,620 the con's. It's going to ask quite a lot of work from you. It's going to bring us more protection 145 00:12:06,620 --> 00:12:10,998 against abuse of power and injustices, but it's going to ask a lot of work from us. 146 00:12:10,998 --> 00:12:14,515 Are we ready for it ? Do we want it ? Have we been enough to ask 147 00:12:14,515 --> 00:12:22,478 and convincing enough to get the mass to agree and adopt it ? 148 00:12:22,478 --> 00:12:26,218 It's not because we're not there yet that we'll never be. I repeat, Internet 149 00:12:26,218 --> 00:12:30,198 is a tool that let's us discover. 150 00:12:30,198 --> 00:12:35,691 We would have never met before Internet. Internet makes connections and group progression 151 00:12:35,691 --> 00:12:40,568 infinitly quicker... it makes possible and so quickly that it let's us have hope and dream. 152 00:12:40,568 --> 00:12:45,318 Because there are many people who are able to weigh pro's/con's and draw a conclusion: 153 00:12:45,318 --> 00:12:49,038 "Alright, I'll work a little more but at the same time, I'll get rid of parasite bankers... 154 00:12:49,038 --> 00:12:53,896 And so I'll free up thousands of billions of ressources ! I am going to need 155 00:12:53,896 --> 00:12:58,122 to work a lot less when I'll have taken the control of money creation again. " It's a subject... 156 00:12:58,122 --> 00:13:01,678 It's all connection, you see. I'll talk less about it tonight, but you should look at other conferences. 157 00:13:01,678 --> 00:13:08,358 They're on the Internet. But what I'll say on money creation is not something that has nothing to do with this. 158 00:13:08,358 --> 00:13:12,816 It's completly intwined like two organs of a same body. 159 00:13:12,816 --> 00:13:19,318 We won't get money creation back without a Constitution, without writing ourselves our own Constitution. 160 00:13:19,318 --> 00:13:27,445 And we won't have prosperity and a bit of work... with a reasonable amount of work, by working 161 00:13:27,445 --> 00:13:32,042 two times less, maybe two days a week for example ; we won't achieve a prosperity 162 00:13:32,042 --> 00:13:36,154 with an intellectual emancipation... If we work less, we'd be able to learn philosophy, 163 00:13:36,154 --> 00:13:42,909 or musique, or love... many things that at the moment we do little of, or quite badly, or not at all 164 00:13:42,909 --> 00:13:51,361 because we're dumb struck by work! But you know, productivity has quadrupled, fivefolded, tenfolded 165 00:13:51,361 --> 00:13:56,795 since the 2nd World War. Productivity, our work has become more and more efficient, 166 00:13:56,795 --> 00:14:02,234 but in enormous proportions ! In less than 40 years. Do we work less ? 167 00:14:02,234 --> 00:14:07,197 Non, we work the same... almost... give or take 30 min /week. We work the same 168 00:14:07,197 --> 00:14:13,002 but because we have parasites on our back. I'm saying it quite harshly, but when I'm listening to you... 169 00:14:13,002 --> 00:14:16,914 Well I could call them the people of Versailles, like they used to say during the Commune period, those who were... 170 00:14:16,914 --> 00:14:21,919 those who formed a group around the Commune of Paris [just after the French Revolution]... so the rich, in short, 171 00:14:21,919 --> 00:14:24,891 those who had been caught... no, not those who had been caught... the rich who had left 172 00:14:24,891 --> 00:14:28,281 power ; because the Communards didn't take the power. I'm leaving my thread again. 173 00:14:28,281 --> 00:14:34,179 So the people of Versailles, in reality, it's the people of power, those who made people beleive they were of the folk 174 00:14:34,179 --> 00:14:40,954 and had left and deserted Paris. They were afraid, the army didn't obey, and they said: "Oh la la, 175 00:14:40,954 --> 00:14:44,714 the army is not obeying, we have to leave!" And they went to Versailles. There, they created 176 00:14:44,714 --> 00:14:56,609 a huge army to come back and butcher the Communards. 177 00:14:56,609 --> 00:15:00,603 So... yes, yes, maybe you're right, maybe it's won't come to be because we want it, 178 00:15:00,603 --> 00:15:06,554 but it seems to me that the enthusiasm that I find around this idea is growing over the last year, 179 00:15:06,554 --> 00:15:12,492 It's moving forward, it seems. Many people see... they see 180 00:15:12,492 --> 00:15:17,322 what a real democracy is, who discover the lessons from Athens 181 00:15:17,322 --> 00:15:19,922 We won't take everything from Athens. There are things we don't want from Athens, obviously, 182 00:15:19,922 --> 00:15:24,034 but there are things that are "sexy", attractive, interesting in Athens, so... 183 00:15:24,034 --> 00:15:29,874 I find that there is a novation, something new that gives us 184 00:15:29,874 --> 00:15:35,154 a possible perspective and in the end, doesn't make me fight a lost battle. 185 00:15:35,154 --> 00:15:37,954 - In the case of Athens... 186 00:15:37,954 --> 00:15:38,754 - Yes ? 187 00:15:38,754 --> 00:15:44,234 - In the case of Athens, what was the percentage of people living in Athens 188 00:15:44,234 --> 00:15:48,901 who were likely to take decisions ? 189 00:15:48,901 --> 00:15:53,007 - That's going to be a hard one... What was the percentage of Athenians who were likely 190 00:15:53,007 --> 00:15:56,360 to take a decision ? Are you talking about the people living in Athens or are you talking about citizens ? 191 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:58,382 - I'm talking about living human beings, of course. 192 00:15:58,382 --> 00:16:04,697 - Ah...no well...Why ? 193 00:16:04,697 --> 00:16:06,929 Sorry? Well yes but... 194 00:16:06,929 --> 00:16:12,195 - ... living people who are less human beings than others ? 195 00:16:12,195 --> 00:16:13,648 - Well of course. - Women, slaves... 196 00:16:13,648 --> 00:16:15,970 - Women, slaves, dogs, 197 00:16:15,970 --> 00:16:18,013 cats, children, strangers, there are... 198 00:16:18,013 --> 00:16:20,428 - We've understood each other: we're talking about living human beings. 199 00:16:20,428 --> 00:16:25,815 - Ah you see... I'd put animals in there too. But that's a debate, 200 00:16:25,815 --> 00:16:34,791 as there are debats on: what is defined by the People ? I hope you don't imagine 201 00:16:34,791 --> 00:16:40,214 that I'm a slave trader or a phallocrate. I don't imagine for a second a democracy 202 00:16:40,214 --> 00:16:45,276 without women or with slaves. Don't go imagining otherwise! It's almost an hour now that I'm talking, 203 00:16:45,276 --> 00:16:50,013 you've understood what I meant, it's not... What I'm interested in Athens, 204 00:16:50,013 --> 00:16:55,818 it's what was in the folk at the time. And you must understand that it's not reasonable 205 00:16:55,818 --> 00:17:01,576 to judge, to juge in the terms of value judgement, a folk of 2500 years ago with our own values 206 00:17:01,576 --> 00:17:05,751 of today! That's an anachronism. It's a mistake, we're doing something 207 00:17:05,751 --> 00:17:11,111 that doesn't make sense. When we'll be, us, today, judged by our grand, grand, grand 208 00:17:11,111 --> 00:17:15,229 grand children, who will have long stopped eating meat and killing animals ; 209 00:17:15,229 --> 00:17:19,271 they'll just make artificial meat that will be a lot better than the meat we know today, 210 00:17:19,271 --> 00:17:22,671 and by far ! And they won't need to kill animals at all. Animals 211 00:17:22,671 --> 00:17:26,732 will be their friends, their brothers, they will maybe even know how to talk with them... they will have learned, 212 00:17:26,732 --> 00:17:32,723 finaly, to talk with animals and they will talk with them. And when they'll know, when they will judge us today, 213 00:17:32,723 --> 00:17:36,810 we who ate then, who put them in nazi concentration camps! 214 00:17:36,810 --> 00:17:42,290 That's not an exageration, it's real torture that we impose on animals 215 00:17:42,290 --> 00:17:47,630 to be able to eat them cheap. When they will judge us, they'll say: "But they were, 216 00:17:47,630 --> 00:17:52,460 they were monsters!" Are you a monster ? Non! But you must be judged 217 00:17:52,460 --> 00:17:57,011 with the criterias of your era. I'm saying this so that you understand, but I'm sure that you would have done it 218 00:17:57,011 --> 00:18:02,863 without me. At the time of Athens, all the populations in the world were also slave traders. 219 00:18:02,863 --> 00:18:06,485 All the people around the world ill treated their women. By the way, this treatment, this bad behavior towards women, 220 00:18:06,485 --> 00:18:10,107 it's still going on today. I don't know if this has passed by you that women 221 00:18:10,107 --> 00:18:15,076 are still not treated like men, not at all. And just a few years back, 222 00:18:15,076 --> 00:18:19,349 they didn't have the right to vote! So that's... Let's say that the Athenians weren't the only barbarians 223 00:18:19,349 --> 00:18:25,014 so we should be afraid. No, it's just the people of that era. It was... there weren't any women 224 00:18:25,014 --> 00:18:27,104 or slaves or métèques - métèques, that's what they called strangers - all couldn't vote 225 00:18:27,104 --> 00:18:30,727 What I want to say is that it's not what's interesting for me, 226 00:18:30,727 --> 00:18:36,299 and evidently not what I want to duplicate. This is a trial... and I know you're not putting me on trial for it. 227 00:18:36,299 --> 00:18:40,756 I understand that, but it's a trial that our elected representatives do all the time! 228 00:18:40,756 --> 00:18:43,198 They say: "But Mr. Chouard, you are defending a slave trading regime! 229 00:18:43,198 --> 00:18:49,638 Are you a slave trader?" Non, I'm not a slave trader. I say: "Those were criterias, 230 00:18:49,638 --> 00:18:54,958 caracteristics of that era who weren't necessary to democracy. Democracy 231 00:18:54,958 --> 00:19:03,836 however, at that time, there were 99% of poor and 1% or rich. Aha ! That's a stricking 232 00:19:03,836 --> 00:19:07,041 ressemblance! Ah yes, because that, in all the countries of the world and in every era, 233 00:19:07,041 --> 00:19:16,358 it's a common situation, the 99% / 1% already existed. "Ah, that already existed! So what ?" Well, 234 00:19:16,358 --> 00:19:21,298 for 200 years, those people...alright I know, they didn't have women, there weren't the... 235 00:19:21,298 --> 00:19:29,518 ...but listen ! In the citizens, there were 99% of poor and 1% of rich. Who ruled for over 200 years ? 236 00:19:29,518 --> 00:19:35,838 And during those 200 years, the rich existed. They existed and lived their lives of rich people, 237 00:19:35,838 --> 00:19:39,038 they lived really well! They lived with a lot more comfort than all the others. 238 00:19:39,038 --> 00:19:44,198 They had more slaves, they lived better than the rest, but for 200 years of random draw. 239 00:19:44,198 --> 00:19:54,838 Those who ruled were the 99%! For 200 years, the 1% never ruled. 240 00:19:54,838 --> 00:20:01,358 They lived, they lived well, they lived richly, they lived amongst others, 241 00:20:01,358 --> 00:20:07,320 but they didn't have political power. The random draw managed for 200 years to... listen closely, 242 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:11,238 it's my way of saying it, but it's also why I'm giving so much to understand it, 243 00:20:11,238 --> 00:20:14,982 to be sure that it works or doesn't; and that's what keeps me interested because that's what is transposable. 244 00:20:14,982 --> 00:20:21,438 So for 200 years, the random draw permitted human beings of that era who made up the society... 245 00:20:21,438 --> 00:20:24,270 So "smaller" than us today, but it would work just as well on a bigger scale today! 246 00:20:24,270 --> 00:20:33,094 The random draw let them desynchronise, or clearly seperate economical worth 247 00:20:33,094 --> 00:20:39,084 - so just wealth - of the political worth, of the political power. People who were poor, 248 00:20:39,084 --> 00:20:44,518 who worked in the fields, when to vote the laws. And at the same time, people who were living 249 00:20:44,518 --> 00:20:50,927 in palaces, couldn't vote the laws. They went to the assembly like everyone else, 250 00:20:50,927 --> 00:20:53,806 but they weren't many, they couldn't sway the laws. 251 00:20:53,806 --> 00:20:55,478 - Were they excluded or... 252 00:20:55,478 --> 00:20:57,758 - No, they weren't excluded, they were citizens but since they weren't many, 253 00:20:57,758 --> 00:21:00,215 they couldn't decide. Yes ? 254 00:21:00,215 --> 00:21:03,394 - In a random draw, you can have a real idiot. 255 00:21:03,394 --> 00:21:07,922 - You can have a real idiot or a backstabber. Yes. - We'll talk about it afterwards, if you want... - 256 00:21:07,922 --> 00:21:11,962 Yes, yes, surely yes ! By drawing randomly to have an... 257 00:21:11,962 --> 00:21:14,609 - It's not because you'll have a farmer that you'll have an idiot. 258 00:21:14,609 --> 00:21:18,236 - Yes of course ! No no, this is a misunderstanding. Give me... please let me have 259 00:21:18,236 --> 00:21:22,516 a second so that I can explain, but you'll see that I have a perfect answer for that, you'll see! 260 00:21:22,516 --> 00:21:26,869 A sturdy answer that you'll be able to use yourselves when you'll leave to... 261 00:21:26,869 --> 00:21:31,234 You'll see! It's a powerful objection, surely; it comes to mind to all of us! 262 00:21:31,234 --> 00:21:33,996 "Well, if we draw an idiot! Come on! Or a jerk!" 263 00:21:33,996 --> 00:21:43,587 There are many answers to that. So I'll finish on that... Yes ? Sorry. 264 00:21:43,587 --> 00:21:48,696 - Yes... In Athens, it's all nice and swell, but there were maybe 40 000 citizens. 265 00:21:48,696 --> 00:21:52,318 - Ah that's another objection ; it's the number. They were 40 000 citizens and today 266 00:21:52,318 --> 00:21:56,596 we are 40 million. Ah Mr. Chouard, you are trying to drive us... 267 00:21:56,596 --> 00:21:59,127 - They were capable of assembling in one place... 268 00:21:59,127 --> 00:22:02,009 - ... to gather in one place. How do you do to assemble 40 million people ? 269 00:22:02,009 --> 00:22:09,119 I have an answer for that too, but I'll answer it after, in order. 270 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:13,472 So no, no, those are objections and I have no intention of eluding them. I swear 271 00:22:13,472 --> 00:22:18,530 that I won't avoid them, or even cheat with any of your objections. We'll treat them very correctly. Yes ? 272 00:22:19,598 --> 00:22:21,595 - Someone who masters the tools, too, someone... 273 00:22:21,595 --> 00:22:23,731 ...Communication, there must be knowledge too... 274 00:22:23,731 --> 00:22:24,613 - ... that there be knowledge... 275 00:22:24,613 --> 00:22:25,821 - ... and diplomas... 276 00:22:25,821 --> 00:22:29,118 - Popopopop ! Let's talk, let's talk ! - I call them that way but maybe... - He must be competent 277 00:22:29,118 --> 00:22:37,517 - ...that they have knowledge recognised by others... - They must be competent. - Competent... 278 00:22:37,517 --> 00:22:40,863 - Another objection noted. No but this is great, realy great ! We have our objections! 279 00:22:40,863 --> 00:22:42,953 - Words are words, so "diploma" I don't have anything else but... 280 00:22:42,953 --> 00:22:48,348 - Yes, yes of course! I didn't say the objection was a bad one, it's valid and very interesting 281 00:22:48,348 --> 00:22:56,548 and we must talk about it ! We must discuss. One of two things: Either it's solid and irrefutable, 282 00:22:56,548 --> 00:23:01,548 and in that case we can just stop debating, because it's true, you're right, the whole thing is then shattered, 283 00:23:01,548 --> 00:23:07,948 there. An objection showing that it's not possible, that it doesn't work. 284 00:23:07,948 --> 00:23:14,828 It's just serious. Or the objection is a new idea, 285 00:23:14,828 --> 00:23:21,988 a first idea, and then yes, there's this, and yes, there's this too, and that... The Athenians... 286 00:23:21,988 --> 00:23:26,988 So I'll answer globally. I'll answer globally because there are other objections in the line 287 00:23:26,988 --> 00:23:31,548 that you haven't thought of yet and that will come to your mind 288 00:23:31,548 --> 00:23:36,359 when you'll leave. I'll answer and I will give you an answer 289 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:42,489 to almost all the objections; maybe not concerning the number of people but it's worth for the others 290 00:23:42,489 --> 00:23:50,569 And it's sturdy. The Athenians were like you and me, they had the same fears as we do. 291 00:23:50,569 --> 00:23:56,468 They weren't insane! They weren't stupid because it was 2500 years ago. They were just as smart as we are 292 00:23:56,468 --> 00:24:03,908 and they were a lot more training in politics as we are. I mean they practiced politics, 293 00:24:03,908 --> 00:24:06,591 they knew what they were talking about, they knew the risks. 294 00:24:06,591 --> 00:24:13,511 And those people, well aware, who wouldn't have let such a danger slip past them: 295 00:24:13,511 --> 00:24:17,748 "We're going to randomly draw an idiot. What do we do ?" They wouldn't have let that slip past them and do nothing about it. 296 00:24:17,748 --> 00:24:23,548 Those people, those Athenians, for 200... 200 years, that's really long, ey. It's not two years, 297 00:24:23,548 --> 00:24:28,588 it's not twenty years, it's not a hundred. 200 years is very long ! 298 00:24:28,588 --> 00:24:31,908 For 200 years, they still randomly drew. 299 00:24:31,908 --> 00:24:40,828 - And during those 200 years, did they consider, like you do, that the political instrument 300 00:24:40,828 --> 00:24:45,833 it's almost a goal or was it a mean? If for 200 years 301 00:24:45,833 --> 00:24:51,828 they worked with such a political system, that it let in place all the social unfairness... 302 00:24:51,828 --> 00:24:55,708 - They didn't feel like they had social unfairness. Yes ? 303 00:24:55,708 --> 00:24:56,746 - Ah they didn't feel like...ah yes... 304 00:24:56,746 --> 00:24:59,904 - Well yes. Remember, the people of that time, well... No but that's ... 305 00:24:59,904 --> 00:25:02,628 - Athens for 200 years, it was a great city... 306 00:25:02,628 --> 00:25:03,434 - Yes! 307 00:25:03,434 --> 00:25:06,628 - A political system, it's an instrument, not a... 308 00:25:06,628 --> 00:25:08,031 - Yes, it's an instrument, absolutely. 309 00:25:08,031 --> 00:25:12,118 - It's an instrument for making life better for most people... 310 00:25:12,118 --> 00:25:12,954 - Absolutely 311 00:25:12,954 --> 00:25:15,462 - To make sure to reduce social unfairness, for example... 312 00:25:15,462 --> 00:25:21,780 - Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. And by the way if you... I'll just ask you to beleive me 313 00:25:21,780 --> 00:25:26,970 before that I prove it to you, but it seems to me that what I'm struggling for, that is 314 00:25:26,970 --> 00:25:31,732 to institutionalise a real democracy, a modern democracy, that is one where 315 00:25:31,732 --> 00:25:35,810 we would have women, we wouldn't have slaves. If we manage 316 00:25:35,810 --> 00:25:38,550 to put in place a true democracy, that is that we manage to understand 317 00:25:38,550 --> 00:25:41,708 why we have not achieved this before; and I beleive that it's because we have given up 318 00:25:41,708 --> 00:25:45,052 on the constitutional process. And I beleive that if we manager to create a real democracy, 319 00:25:45,052 --> 00:25:50,903 I beleive that we will be able to solve many social injustices 320 00:25:50,903 --> 00:25:56,430 that we are forced to bare with today. I beleive that marxistes, anarchistes 321 00:25:56,430 --> 00:26:01,259 progressistes in general, guys who are a lot more ...a lot more fierce 322 00:26:01,259 --> 00:26:09,015 on... We want justice. We want Kropotkine. We want social justice; 323 00:26:09,015 --> 00:26:15,888 I beleive that those people should... I really don't feel like I am in opposition with them. 324 00:26:15,888 --> 00:26:20,300 That is because I beleive that it's going to work. If we manage to... 325 00:26:20,300 --> 00:26:28,520 The political system that we are now... refining, balancing by saying: 326 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:32,354 "We must watch out again this power so that it's not abused of, that it doesn't become a tyranny, 327 00:26:32,354 --> 00:26:39,674 that it doesn't become..." This watchsmith's precaution that no power be able to abuse it's power, 328 00:26:39,674 --> 00:26:45,394 that's a democracy! It's a system where we are able to protect ourselves... 329 00:26:45,394 --> 00:26:49,954 It must be a moderate democracy, because the assembly must not be able to squash; 330 00:26:49,954 --> 00:26:55,474 the majority must not be able to squash the minority, for example. So we must thing about the mechanisms 331 00:26:55,474 --> 00:27:01,834 that will also defend the minorities. I am not at all... I am not mad, I'm looking, I'm searching... 332 00:27:01,834 --> 00:27:06,194 I'm not looking to put in place a system that is going to have the name democracy because it's just called democracy, 333 00:27:06,194 --> 00:27:08,954 because it's just pretty in that way, because I like what they had in Athens. No, not at all! 334 00:27:08,954 --> 00:27:17,594 My thread, it's reducing... I know that we'll never get to the end completly... 335 00:27:17,594 --> 00:27:21,434 I'm not full of illusions...I know that we won't manage to go to the end 336 00:27:21,434 --> 00:27:26,114 of social injustices, there will always be there, but my objective is to reduce them drasticly. 337 00:27:26,114 --> 00:27:33,643 And to outlaw abuse of power. So we're on the side, don't misunderstand, I... 338 00:27:33,643 --> 00:27:40,120 I'll just ask you as a personal favor to not... In a controversy, it's Rabelais 339 00:27:40,120 --> 00:27:45,057 that I should have... It's not Rabelais, it's Montaigne that I should have brought, who in "Essays"... 340 00:27:45,057 --> 00:27:52,766 describes in chapter 8 of book 3 "The art of conversation". 341 00:27:52,766 --> 00:27:56,992 You should buy "Essays" in the version translated in modern french, otherwise you just don't understand it. 342 00:27:56,992 --> 00:28:00,846 In old french, you stop at every word, it's incomprehensible the "Essays", whereas translated 343 00:28:00,846 --> 00:28:05,397 by Lanly, it's beautiful. You'll see, it's linked to what we were saying... Yes I know, I'm leaving my thread again, 344 00:28:05,397 --> 00:28:12,410 but it's useful, you'll see. In the "Essays", Montaigne observes himself 345 00:28:12,410 --> 00:28:16,636 with such honesty that what he finds in himself, also helps us understand ourselves. 346 00:28:16,636 --> 00:28:21,326 And when he talks about our conversations, he says: "In most 347 00:28:21,326 --> 00:28:27,688 conversations, by the game of voice tone rising and of our egos, we are driven, 348 00:28:27,688 --> 00:28:33,586 against our will, to try and prove the other is wrong and we are right, 349 00:28:33,586 --> 00:28:39,717 whereas normally we should, if things were ideal, 350 00:28:39,717 --> 00:28:46,951 we should both search for truth..." Phrase it differently if it comes as a shock 351 00:28:46,951 --> 00:28:51,711 because you consider that there is but one truth, that there is... but here we're searching 352 00:28:51,711 --> 00:28:55,551 and trying to make the less mistakes possible. So if we search and make as little mistakes as possible, 353 00:28:55,551 --> 00:29:00,191 when the other points out a mistake, we should be happy! Alright, we lost because we were wrong, 354 00:29:00,191 --> 00:29:03,833 and he was right, but globally we've made progress since we have found a mistake 355 00:29:03,833 --> 00:29:10,427 that we won't repeat agaion. So I will ask this favor of you, it is to try 356 00:29:10,427 --> 00:29:19,071 to not take our controversies, our short-lived disagreements, like a verbal joust 357 00:29:19,071 --> 00:29:24,173 where we are going to win, the other loose, but more like a common research. 358 00:29:24,173 --> 00:29:27,006 I'm looking for something, I'm not going to preach the mass. 359 00:29:27,006 --> 00:29:32,115 I'm not going to say something "ready made", a revealed truth. I'm thinking this through, 360 00:29:32,115 --> 00:29:37,548 but I'm not finished yet. I'm still finding many ideas: "Great, the Iroquois there, recently"; 361 00:29:37,548 --> 00:29:43,748 It's a gold mine, a mine of things that we can integrate in our process. So I'm searching if you will. 362 00:29:43,748 --> 00:29:50,696 So I'm completly interested by your objections, but don't take it as one of us 363 00:29:50,696 --> 00:29:59,833 is going to be right and the other wrong. You see what I mean ? In my opinion, we will win 364 00:29:59,833 --> 00:30:06,613 by trying to find together a system that the thieves of power won't want 365 00:30:06,613 --> 00:30:12,603 and will never give us, and that we alone, those who have renounced to power, who want 366 00:30:12,603 --> 00:30:18,466 social justice, but who want to avoid abuse of power, but who don't desire power; 367 00:30:18,466 --> 00:30:24,760 we alone are capable, I beleive, to invent a regime, a mechanism, a clockwork system 368 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:30,789 that will protect us on the long run. That will protect us against social injustice, protect us all. 369 00:30:30,789 --> 00:30:37,481 So...yes, so... If we have an objection, and I must answer to the objections, 370 00:30:37,481 --> 00:30:40,499 but maybe we should turn the schematic on so that... 371 00:30:40,499 --> 00:30:44,273 You'll see that the objections, they'll... I'm going to need... 372 00:30:44,273 --> 00:30:47,913 - It's not an objection, it's just about Montaigne: I would like to add something, 373 00:30:47,913 --> 00:30:53,596 The problem is that we often say "virtuous example". When we start to... I beleive that 374 00:30:53,596 --> 00:30:57,729 for many years the political debate and even, let's say, scientific debates and others, 375 00:30:57,729 --> 00:31:01,676 have been more turning around the emotional aspect than really the thinking process; we get the distinct impression that 376 00:31:01,676 --> 00:31:08,178 they are always...that they are never, during the debate, in the other person something 377 00:31:08,178 --> 00:31:12,172 that we put in common. They are always in contradiction. It's sure that people are used 378 00:31:12,172 --> 00:31:17,512 to this kind of debate, to this kind of communication, and it's going to be very hard to establish 379 00:31:17,512 --> 00:31:20,484 a different form of communication other than conflictual communication... 380 00:31:20,484 --> 00:31:27,456 - It's going to be hard, be we shouldn't renounce. It's true, we have a tendancy ... probably... 381 00:31:27,456 --> 00:31:32,854 ...boosted by shows... shows that are proposed to us on TV and at the movie theatres, 382 00:31:32,854 --> 00:31:35,896 where really emotions and violence are constantly there and... 383 00:31:35,896 --> 00:31:37,127 - ...they never agree... 384 00:31:37,127 --> 00:31:44,139 - ... and they train us to react with emotion. And when we react under the influence of passion, 385 00:31:44,139 --> 00:31:48,598 our reason falls back a step. All this is true. But we shouldn't renounce, I beleive that there, 386 00:31:48,598 --> 00:31:55,424 if we start to discuss, we are going to shed light on such a risk, 387 00:31:55,424 --> 00:31:59,707 this weakness. Forewarned can be forearmed. Maybe we can defeat it, after all.