WEBVTT 00:00:07.560 --> 00:00:12.600 It has given me a dignified existence. 00:00:12.600 --> 00:00:17.280 I used to depend on my husband. 00:00:17.280 --> 00:00:23.470 But thanks to the basic income, that changed for me. 00:00:23.470 --> 00:00:27.820 If I make beautiful clothes and can sell them, then I feel good. 00:00:27.820 --> 00:00:32.759 Then I also did something for it. 00:00:47.000 --> 00:00:49.600 Good evening, welcome to Panorama. 00:00:49.600 --> 00:00:53.360 Forget everything you thought and think about work and income, 00:00:53.360 --> 00:00:56.150 tonight we are going to wipe the blackboard clean, 00:00:56.150 --> 00:01:00.080 and put another idea on it: the basic income for everyone. 00:01:00.080 --> 00:01:05.399 What if, and we're not joking here, 00:01:05.399 --> 00:01:08.920 what if everyone in our country aged 18 and over received 00:01:08.920 --> 00:01:12.559 1500 euros from the government each month? 00:01:12.559 --> 00:01:15.839 Those who want more can still work on top of that basic income, 00:01:15.839 --> 00:01:19.679 those for whom 1500 euros is enough can do other enjoyable things. 00:01:19.679 --> 00:01:21.719 However, we will scrap all other benefits 00:01:21.719 --> 00:01:25.439 such as income support, pensions, unemployment benefits, etc. 00:01:25.439 --> 00:01:29.240 Everyone gets 1500s euros a month. 00:01:29.240 --> 00:01:31.679 Unconditionally and until the end of your days. 00:01:31.679 --> 00:01:34.650 Madness, I already hear you think. 00:01:34.650 --> 00:01:36.540 Well, you should keep watching then, 00:01:36.540 --> 00:01:39.309 because then you will see that the Swiss are going to have 00:01:39.309 --> 00:01:44.109 a referendum about that basic income and that it already exists in practice. 00:01:44.109 --> 00:01:46.840 Among others, in a village in Namibia. 00:01:46.840 --> 00:01:50.579 Reports by Alina Kneepkens and Jozef Devillé. 00:01:55.899 --> 00:02:01.243 Our country is at a standstill, we break world records on traffic congestion, 00:02:01.243 --> 00:02:04.920 1 in 10 Belgian employees sits at home with a burnout 00:02:04.920 --> 00:02:07.039 and not a single country can beat Belgium 00:02:07.039 --> 00:02:09.719 at taking antidepressants and sleeping pills. 00:02:09.719 --> 00:02:13.359 We work ourselves half to death, but government after government 00:02:13.359 --> 00:02:15.280 we are asked to put some more effort 00:02:15.280 --> 00:02:17.120 because we need to work even harder 00:02:17.120 --> 00:02:19.040 and the government needs to cut spending. 00:02:19.040 --> 00:02:22.089 The government wants at least to meet its budget targets. 00:02:22.089 --> 00:02:24.279 Which has previously resulted in 00:02:24.279 --> 00:02:26.469 the restructuration of the budget. NOTE Paragraph 00:02:26.469 --> 00:02:28.660 And now we must to cut spending before all. 00:02:28.660 --> 00:02:31.489 Flanders has no money and the Federal Government has no money either. 00:02:31.489 --> 00:02:34.119 The needed effort is already great and it will increase. 00:02:34.119 --> 00:02:36.200 That is also the choice we make. 00:02:36.200 --> 00:02:39.680 It is felt that many people can no longer keep up 00:02:39.680 --> 00:02:43.000 and that the middle class is slowly being squeezed dry. 00:02:43.490 --> 00:02:48.140 There is great worry among the Belgian working population. 00:02:49.000 --> 00:02:52.000 We often hear that there is no alternative, 00:02:52.000 --> 00:02:54.000 that we can't do anything but cut spending. 00:02:55.080 --> 00:03:00.620 But it turns out that one big idea for changing how the government provides financial assistance 00:03:01.070 --> 00:03:04.030 may have appeal to some on the left and the right. 00:03:04.560 --> 00:03:09.516 It is a minimum level of government payments, known as guaranteed basic income. 00:03:09.852 --> 00:03:14.480 What would the world be like if everyone had the right to earn an income, 00:03:14.480 --> 00:03:17.280 even if they couldn't find employment? 00:03:17.280 --> 00:03:20.480 Today, a utopia where everyone gets paid? 00:03:20.480 --> 00:03:23.460 Switzerland may scrap its anti-poverty programs 00:03:23.460 --> 00:03:26.000 and replace them with an unconditional basic income. 00:03:27.000 --> 00:03:30.560 An unconditional basic income, what is that? 00:03:30.560 --> 00:03:34.879 Exactly what the word says, that everyone aged 18 or older, 00:03:34.879 --> 00:03:37.160 regardless of gender or current income, 00:03:37.160 --> 00:03:40.039 receives a basic income from the government, 00:03:40.039 --> 00:03:42.679 unconditionally, whether you have a job, 00:03:42.679 --> 00:03:45.920 are studying or remain at home to take care of the kids, 00:03:45.920 --> 00:03:50.250 everyone receives the same to meet his basic needs. 00:03:50.250 --> 00:03:55.400 You are allowed to work and earn as much as you want on top of your basic income. 00:03:55.400 --> 00:03:58.280 In Belgium, various people have been working 00:03:58.280 --> 00:04:00.759 on a basic income since the 80s. 00:04:00.759 --> 00:04:03.719 For example, Philippe van Parijs set up a working group 00:04:03.719 --> 00:04:07.439 with, among others, Guy Standing and Roland Duchâtelet. 00:04:07.439 --> 00:04:09.439 We still know Duchâtelet from Vivant 00:04:09.439 --> 00:04:13.079 but today he is primarily known as the owner of several football teams. 00:04:13.079 --> 00:04:15.479 Francine Mestrum is one of the rare 00:04:15.479 --> 00:04:17.678 but very vocal opponents. 00:04:18.947 --> 00:04:23.079 Psychiatrist Dirk de Wachter and Sarah van Liefferinghe of the Pirate Party 00:04:23.079 --> 00:04:26.759 see the advantages for people's well-being. 00:04:26.759 --> 00:04:28.759 We see how many people are stuck 00:04:28.759 --> 00:04:34.159 in the rat race of working more, working harder, working longer, 00:04:34.159 --> 00:04:39.000 so we can consume more and our economy can grow. 00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:42.599 But we feel, and so do a lot of people, that this model frustrates us, 00:04:42.599 --> 00:04:45.079 it exhausts us and makes us emotionally empty. 00:04:45.079 --> 00:04:48.265 A lot of people can't handle the work, 00:04:48.265 --> 00:04:50.531 consider it too burdening, 00:04:50.531 --> 00:04:56.439 come to me and say: "Doctor, help me, I can't go on" 00:04:56.439 --> 00:05:01.919 and "helping", as a doctor, means declaring them "unfit for work". 00:05:01.919 --> 00:05:04.359 And so, in the last ten years the number of people 00:05:04.359 --> 00:05:06.519 who became chronically unfit for work has risen with 50%, 00:05:08.510 --> 00:05:11.609 we have to start thinking about that on a fundamental level 00:05:11.609 --> 00:05:15.359 and basic income is one of those fundamental things 00:05:15.359 --> 00:05:19.000 that can provide a beginning for that. 00:05:19.420 --> 00:05:23.800 The time for basic income is now. 00:05:23.800 --> 00:05:27.026 And the reason is that with globalisation, that took off in the 1980s, 00:05:30.082 --> 00:05:35.040 what has actually been happening is, the world's labor supply, 00:05:35.040 --> 00:05:41.660 the number of people exposed to a global labor market, has quadrupled. 00:05:41.700 --> 00:05:46.013 So what has been happening in the last 30 years 00:05:46.013 --> 00:05:49.746 is a downward pressure on our real wages. 00:05:54.516 --> 00:05:56.559 The British economist Guy Standing 00:05:56.559 --> 00:06:00.119 led the largest experiment with a basic income ever. 00:06:00.119 --> 00:06:06.120 In India 20,000 people received a real basic income for two years. 00:06:06.120 --> 00:06:10.720 Soon, he'll share with the world those incredible results. 00:06:10.720 --> 00:06:12.679 Recently he was a guest in Brussels, 00:06:12.679 --> 00:06:15.800 on invitation of former EU commissioner 00:06:15.800 --> 00:06:19.000 of employment and social affairs, Laszlo Andor. 00:06:20.680 --> 00:06:22.680 Thank you very much. 00:06:22.680 --> 00:06:28.060 The worst thing would be to go back to the old norm. 00:06:28.060 --> 00:06:32.480 Professor Standing used to work at the International Labour Organisation. 00:06:32.480 --> 00:06:34.200 Now he talks in his books 00:06:34.200 --> 00:06:37.160 about the growing underclass in our society 00:06:37.160 --> 00:06:40.440 and what he, with a neologism, calls the precariat. 00:06:40.440 --> 00:06:43.073 The precariat consists 00:06:43.073 --> 00:06:47.256 of millions and millions of people 00:06:47.256 --> 00:06:50.770 exposed to insecure labor. 00:06:50.770 --> 00:06:52.900 Without knowing where they're going. 00:06:52.900 --> 00:06:56.280 They have no sense of occupational career. 00:06:56.280 --> 00:07:00.130 It's a trend in which we've been stuck since the 80s, with Thatcher and Reagan, 00:07:00.130 --> 00:07:03.639 and after 30 years of "greed is good" 00:07:03.639 --> 00:07:05.500 it's time for something else. 00:07:05.500 --> 00:07:08.000 Other models, now! 00:07:09.720 --> 00:07:13.240 Invest in people, not in weapons! Michel, U-turn or war! 00:07:13.240 --> 00:07:15.243 Shut up and work! 00:07:15.243 --> 00:07:17.246 00:07:17.246 --> 00:07:19.270 No cuts to our future! 00:07:19.270 --> 00:07:22.280 Harder? Faster? Longer? Like Machines? 00:07:23.720 --> 00:07:28.000 And this uncertainly is extremely stressful. 00:07:28.000 --> 00:07:32.610 So people in the precariat are living, mostly, 00:07:32.610 --> 00:07:36.000 on the edge of unsustainable debt. 00:07:36.000 --> 00:07:40.160 One accident, and they're out in the streets. 00:07:40.000 --> 00:07:45.360 According to the countries, we are now 2 or 3 times richer 00:07:45.360 --> 00:07:49.320 per capita than in the golden 60s, 00:07:49.320 --> 00:07:52.690 and we're still here with an enormous amount of unemployment. 00:07:52.690 --> 00:07:57.280 People who fear for their job, and we're 2 to 3 times richer. 00:07:57.290 --> 00:08:00.239 Aren't we all acting completely foolishly? 00:08:00.239 --> 00:08:03.879 Poverty is solved with income, 00:08:03.879 --> 00:08:07.770 so people need to receive benefits that are high enough, 00:08:07.770 --> 00:08:09.980 which is not happening today. 00:08:09.980 --> 00:08:14.020 The proponents of a basic income are completely right in that regard, 00:08:14.020 --> 00:08:16.939 poor people need an income 00:08:16.939 --> 00:08:19.000 to live in dignity. 00:08:21.479 --> 00:08:24.280 To see with our own eyes what a basic income 00:08:24.280 --> 00:08:28.399 does to people in poverty, we traveled to Namibia, 00:08:28.399 --> 00:08:30.479 a country of great contrasts. 00:08:30.479 --> 00:08:33.600 The gigantic profits from diamond exports 00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:36.840 stand in shrill contrast with the dangerous situation 00:08:36.840 --> 00:08:38.950 where people live in poverty. 00:08:40.280 --> 00:08:43.520 Otjivero is a poor settlement in the desert 00:08:43.520 --> 00:08:45.799 where people had nothing at all. 00:08:47.960 --> 00:08:51.530 We were dirt poor, here in Otjivero. 00:08:51.530 --> 00:08:53.530 But thanks to the basic income 00:08:53.530 --> 00:08:56.030 we had something to eat and somewhere to sleep. 00:08:56.940 --> 00:09:01.159 Otjivero was chosen in 2009 for an experiment 00:09:01.159 --> 00:09:06.079 where its 930 residents received 100 Namibian dollars each month 00:09:06.079 --> 00:09:08.879 or about 7 euros per person. 00:09:08.879 --> 00:09:11.560 Unconditionally, people were free to decide 00:09:11.560 --> 00:09:14.060 what they would do with that money. 00:09:14.060 --> 00:09:20.473 It was mostly plastic and carton box-houses, 00:09:20.473 --> 00:09:22.736 in which people lived. 00:09:22.736 --> 00:09:26.400 And the grant proved 00:09:26.400 --> 00:09:32.000 that after six months, a year after the implementation, 00:09:32.000 --> 00:09:37.360 - you could see how the face of Otjivero changed. 00:09:38.000 --> 00:09:42.480 The Namibian council of churches, a few labor unions and NGO's 00:09:42.480 --> 00:09:45.759 provided the funds for this extraordinary project. 00:09:45.759 --> 00:09:49.400 Priest Wilfred Diergaart and bishop Zephania Kameeta 00:09:49.400 --> 00:09:54.129 chose Otjivero as the ideal settlement for this experiment. 00:09:54.129 --> 00:09:56.239 This piece of no man's land in the desert 00:09:56.239 --> 00:09:58.675 is populated by various ethnic groups. 00:09:59.841 --> 00:10:02.079 Scientists Claudia and Dirk Haarmann 00:10:02.079 --> 00:10:04.519 have performed intensive research on location 00:10:04.519 --> 00:10:07.399 and in cooperation with the University of Cape Town 00:10:07.399 --> 00:10:09.000 they analyzed the results. 00:10:09.000 --> 00:10:11.513 When we started with the pilot project, we thought 00:10:11.513 --> 00:10:14.036 that 100 Namibian dollars is not a lot of money, 00:10:14.036 --> 00:10:17.800 it will just make the difference in terms of food security 00:10:17.800 --> 00:10:23.000 and it will just help people to cope with their daily lives in poverty. 00:10:23.000 --> 00:10:26.380 But we were actually very surprised by the results: 00:10:26.380 --> 00:10:32.160 malnourishment went down from 42 to 10 percent. 00:10:32.160 --> 00:10:34.160 People had enough food to eat. 00:10:34.160 --> 00:10:38.280 But the amazing thing is that people really started to become active 00:10:38.280 --> 00:10:40.560 and took their lives into their own hands. 00:10:40.560 --> 00:10:44.300 And there actually was a real empowerment process within the village. 00:10:46.360 --> 00:10:49.400 Thanks to the basic income, my business flourished. 00:10:49.400 --> 00:10:52.800 I'm a carpenter, I make beds and such. 00:10:54.000 --> 00:10:58.240 We thought about how we could improve our lives. 00:10:58.240 --> 00:11:04.040 Marie-Rose set up as a hairdresser. She also sells bread and biscuits. 00:11:05.240 --> 00:11:07.560 It's my job. 00:11:07.560 --> 00:11:09.440 I get money from here. 00:11:10.771 --> 00:11:14.000 It's called purchasing power: as soon as you give people money, 00:11:14.000 --> 00:11:16.000 they can also spend it. 00:11:17.600 --> 00:11:21.760 The greatest success I have seen there, 00:11:21.760 --> 00:11:24.640 was the establishment of a bakery 00:11:24.640 --> 00:11:27.640 from the proceeds of this grant. 00:11:27.640 --> 00:11:29.240 My name is Frida. 00:11:29.240 --> 00:11:34.440 That bakery has now reached the level of self-sustainability. 00:11:34.440 --> 00:11:39.840 If you give a person money, why should they become lazy? 00:11:39.840 --> 00:11:43.880 Take me, I'm not lazy, I have been given hope again, 00:11:43.880 --> 00:11:48.000 and I'm busy every day. 00:11:48.000 --> 00:11:53.440 If you give someone money, they can decide for themselves what to do with it. 00:11:53.440 --> 00:11:57.760 The government only gave us corn flour 00:11:57.760 --> 00:12:00.440 but not everyone eats porridge. 00:12:00.440 --> 00:12:03.600 How do you know that everybody likes to eat corn flour? 00:12:03.600 --> 00:12:06.160 Not everyone eats it. 00:12:07.250 --> 00:12:11.280 You give them money and they decide what they want to buy. 00:12:11.280 --> 00:12:16.520 And that is the way an adult learns about life. 00:12:16.520 --> 00:12:21.120 It is an adult policy, rather than a paternalistic policy. 00:12:22.000 --> 00:12:25.919 But why do we need a basic income in Belgium 00:12:25.919 --> 00:12:29.240 when we already have such an extensive benefits system? 00:12:29.240 --> 00:12:34.480 Well, you only get money unconditionally if you're the king. 00:12:34.480 --> 00:12:37.599 Belgium does have a fine social safety net, 00:12:37.599 --> 00:12:41.039 but it's also terribly complex. 00:12:41.039 --> 00:12:44.440 If people start working part-time, which is sometimes possible, 00:12:44.440 --> 00:12:47.559 they have less income than their disability benefits. 00:12:47.559 --> 00:12:50.399 So they are punished for it. 00:12:50.399 --> 00:12:52.800 That is exceptionally counterproductive. 00:12:52.800 --> 00:12:56.759 It makes you dependent, that also takes away your motivation. 00:12:56.759 --> 00:13:00.079 You earn less with a low paying job 00:13:00.079 --> 00:13:02.159 than you would get on benefits. 00:13:02.159 --> 00:13:05.119 So one of the main arguments in favour of basic income 00:13:05.119 --> 00:13:07.320 in the Belgian or European context 00:13:07.320 --> 00:13:10.759 is that the current system creates a sort of poverty trap, 00:13:10.759 --> 00:13:15.349 an unemployment trap, because it's conditional, 00:13:15.349 --> 00:13:17.629 because those benefits are conditional. 00:13:17.629 --> 00:13:20.759 We have gotten to the point where we are paying people 00:13:20.759 --> 00:13:25.280 to monitor what an unemployed person is doing, and that's insane. 00:13:25.280 --> 00:13:31.200 And with a basic income grant, you don't need a huge administration. 00:13:31.000 --> 00:13:34.720 The redistribution of money currently requires us to spend a lot of money 00:13:34.720 --> 00:13:38.960 on people who are doing something that is frankly pointless. 00:13:38.960 --> 00:13:41.160 Or people who are replaceable this way. 00:13:41.160 --> 00:13:43.919 So we can make that redistribution a lot more efficient 00:13:43.919 --> 00:13:46.600 by just giving a basic income. 00:13:46.600 --> 00:13:50.200 And the people themselves, they do not need to cheat. 00:13:50.200 --> 00:13:52.880 Also, there's no way you can cheat. 00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:04.200 If no one can commit fraud to get a basic income, 00:14:04.200 --> 00:14:07.799 no one needs to be checked. 00:14:07.799 --> 00:14:09.640 One of the foremost parts 00:14:09.640 --> 00:14:13.119 in our benefits system becomes obsolete this way. 00:14:14.439 --> 00:14:17.500 Who was it that was looking for more ways to cut spending? 00:14:23.760 --> 00:14:27.719 Basic income is an idea that refuses to die. 00:14:27.719 --> 00:14:31.719 It started with Thomas Paine in 1795. 00:14:31.719 --> 00:14:34.119 But also in 1848 in Brussels 00:14:34.119 --> 00:14:38.759 Belgian Liberal Joseph Charlier wrote about it in this house. 00:14:44.640 --> 00:14:46.600 That proposal is really a proposal 00:14:46.600 --> 00:14:48.840 of a really unconditional basic income. 00:14:48.840 --> 00:14:51.000 Modest, but really unconditional. 00:14:51.640 --> 00:14:56.470 Only the person whose basic necessities are met 00:14:56.470 --> 00:14:58.280 is independent. 00:14:58.280 --> 00:15:04.990 Currently, those who depend on others for their absolute needs are slaves. 00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:12.000 Perhaps one last excerpt that also expresses the ambition well. 00:15:12.120 --> 00:15:19.120 The answer to the social problem is as simple as it is far-reaching. 00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:23.439 That a simple idea can have immense consequences, 00:15:23.439 --> 00:15:26.249 also proves this Belgian phenomenon. 00:15:26.249 --> 00:15:27.759 No thank you. 00:15:27.759 --> 00:15:30.759 Just kidding, gracias! Grazie! 00:15:30.759 --> 00:15:35.720 Yes, with 2000 euros a month you don't need to worry for the rest of your life. 00:15:35.720 --> 00:15:37.920 Win For Life, don't worry. 00:15:37.920 --> 00:15:41.480 I scratched that lottery ticket in 2010 00:15:41.480 --> 00:15:45.079 and it still didn't really sink in. 00:15:45.079 --> 00:15:49.000 But when you stick that ticket in the machine, 00:15:49.000 --> 00:15:52.320 and that jingle plays, you're like 00:15:52.320 --> 00:15:54.000 "it really is real." 00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:55.799 And then she said "oh, you're lucky, 00:15:55.799 --> 00:15:58.840 because it's always paid out on the first of the month, 00:15:58.840 --> 00:16:03.359 so starting the day after tomorrow, every month 2000 euros 00:16:03.359 --> 00:16:05.240 will be deposited into your account. 00:16:05.240 --> 00:16:06.679 For the rest of your life. 00:16:06.679 --> 00:16:09.159 We'll call our winner Anja. 00:16:09.159 --> 00:16:11.159 She is worried about the stigma 00:16:11.159 --> 00:16:13.880 that she'd become lazy for the rest of her life. 00:16:15.370 --> 00:16:18.989 Actually I'm working more than I used to, 00:16:18.989 --> 00:16:20.600 since I got the Win For Life. 00:16:20.600 --> 00:16:22.759 But also because I like doing it. 00:16:22.759 --> 00:16:27.920 What I'm doing as an entrepreneur, that doesn't feel like working to me, 00:16:27.920 --> 00:16:32.359 because I like doing it, but if I hadn't had that Win For Life, 00:16:32.359 --> 00:16:36.950 I never would've had the chance to do what I like doing. 00:16:36.950 --> 00:16:38.749 That's just wonderful. 00:16:38.749 --> 00:16:40.460 That woman does what she likes. 00:16:40.460 --> 00:16:43.080 She is free, that's really the whole point. 00:16:43.080 --> 00:16:45.959 A basic income is a freedom income 00:16:45.959 --> 00:16:49.400 and people don't realise that yet. 00:16:49.400 --> 00:16:52.979 And when you see the collective happiness that is being wasted, 00:16:52.979 --> 00:16:57.320 because people refuse to seriously think about it, that's huge. 00:16:57.320 --> 00:17:02.840 That full time job is no longer putting me under pressure either, 00:17:02.840 --> 00:17:05.239 like it was before. 00:17:05.239 --> 00:17:08.519 I think that for a lot of people it's like: "I have to keep this job, 00:17:08.519 --> 00:17:11.239 because it's all that I have and it's something to hold on to" 00:17:11.239 --> 00:17:15.439 and in my case it's: "Well, if I Iose that job, it's not a disaster." 00:17:15.439 --> 00:17:18.680 Something I've concluded as an entrepreneur is 00:17:18.680 --> 00:17:21.159 people who like doing things 00:17:21.159 --> 00:17:25.358 do it really well and they are much more productive than people 00:17:25.358 --> 00:17:27.920 who are working because they have to. 00:17:27.920 --> 00:17:33.749 That is also the function of a basic income, 00:17:33.749 --> 00:17:37.080 in terms of people's human capital. 00:17:37.080 --> 00:17:42.240 I would never have started my own business if I hadn't had that Win For Life, 00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:47.479 for fear of failure or becoming bankrupt. 00:17:47.479 --> 00:17:51.199 Anja also had more worries before she won her Win For Life. 00:17:51.199 --> 00:17:54.159 Damn, my hair dryer broke down. 00:17:54.159 --> 00:17:59.599 For example, about the safety of the ramshackle house she lived in 00:17:59.599 --> 00:18:02.280 and she couldn't count on financial help from home 00:18:02.280 --> 00:18:05.280 to buy a proper house. 00:18:05.280 --> 00:18:10.960 I never would've dreamed we could live in such a beautiful house. 00:18:10.960 --> 00:18:14.660 But that was not a problem, because suddenly the bank was glad to see us, 00:18:14.660 --> 00:18:18.360 with 2000 euros extra income. 00:18:18.360 --> 00:18:22.360 So in the case of Win For Life it is "For Life". 00:18:22.360 --> 00:18:27.800 But the big problem there is that there is a huge difference 00:18:27.800 --> 00:18:33.639 between 10, 100, 1000 people in 11 million. 00:18:33.639 --> 00:18:36.960 But what happens in the heads of those 11 million Belgians 00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:40.099 when we randomly offer a few people 00:18:40.099 --> 00:18:43.199 an unconditional chance at 2000 euros a month? 00:18:43.199 --> 00:18:45.000 Would they stop working? 00:18:46.000 --> 00:18:49.880 2000 is a nice amount. 00:18:49.880 --> 00:18:55.120 I wouldn't directly stop working, but my partner might. 00:18:55.120 --> 00:18:59.640 You could go on a short vacation more often. 00:18:59.640 --> 00:19:02.280 That would make life more pleasant and easier. 00:19:02.280 --> 00:19:04.280 Perhaps a renovation? 00:19:04.280 --> 00:19:08.320 I'd also save, I wouldn't immediately spend it on fancy things. 00:19:08.320 --> 00:19:11.080 For the rest of your life you wouldn't have to work for somebody else. 00:19:11.080 --> 00:19:15.080 I'd open a shop and I'd quit my job. 00:19:15.080 --> 00:19:18.060 Open a shop or a restaurant. 00:19:18.680 --> 00:19:23.000 I'll tell you right now that I'd use it for good causes. 00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:26.520 Small-scale projects from people who want to do something 00:19:26.520 --> 00:19:28.640 or the less wealthy. 00:19:28.640 --> 00:19:32.280 Orphans, I pity them a lot as well. 00:19:32.280 --> 00:19:34.280 Can I scratch now? 00:19:34.000 --> 00:19:37.520 The reactions here confirm the expectations 00:19:37.520 --> 00:19:40.599 of the societal effect of a basic income. 00:19:40.599 --> 00:19:42.679 It makes people think about their free time, 00:19:42.679 --> 00:19:45.650 it makes people more independent and nobody thinks of being lazy. 00:19:45.650 --> 00:19:47.080 Alas. 00:19:47.880 --> 00:19:49.440 Too bad. 00:19:50.489 --> 00:19:52.280 But what do they think about the implementation 00:19:52.280 --> 00:19:56.000 of a basic income for each Belgian? 00:19:56.280 --> 00:19:59.640 That is of course not a bad idea, but it's not feasible. 00:19:59.640 --> 00:20:01.360 It's not feasible. 00:20:01.360 --> 00:20:03.400 Freedom is a sensitive matter to me. 00:20:03.400 --> 00:20:06.760 It's a fantastic system, if it's for everyone. 00:20:06.760 --> 00:20:10.560 If everyone can decide what to do with it, 00:20:10.560 --> 00:20:12.320 I'll sign up right now, immediately. 00:20:12.320 --> 00:20:15.640 If everyone is doing well, then there's also no misery. 00:20:15.640 --> 00:20:20.840 Where will they get the money in the first place, is what I'm thinking. 00:20:20.840 --> 00:20:25.600 I won't scratch for too long, because I still have potatoes to cook. 00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:32.719 If there is a country where there is enough money for a basic income, 00:20:32.719 --> 00:20:34.719 it's Switzerland. 00:20:34.719 --> 00:20:38.480 The citizens of the country of banks will vote in 2016 00:20:38.480 --> 00:20:41.720 on a basic income for every Swiss. 00:20:41.720 --> 00:20:43.519 A group of a few artists 00:20:43.519 --> 00:20:46.640 is calling itself "Generation basic income". 00:20:46.640 --> 00:20:49.640 They collected more than 100,000 signatures 00:20:49.640 --> 00:20:52.359 and compelled their government to a referendum 00:20:52.359 --> 00:20:55.160 through the Swiss system of direct democracy. 00:20:55.160 --> 00:20:58.160 If people vote yes, 00:20:58.160 --> 00:21:01.499 the Swiss government will be constitutionally obligated 00:21:01.499 --> 00:21:04.159 to implement the system, no matter what. 00:21:04.159 --> 00:21:07.520 With that, Switzerland is internationally 00:21:07.520 --> 00:21:11.600 the furthest along with a possible utopia. 00:21:14.119 --> 00:21:16.029 Daniel Häni is an entrepreneur, 00:21:16.029 --> 00:21:18.719 and the man behind "Unternehmen mitte" in Basel, 00:21:18.719 --> 00:21:21.439 a coffee bar in a former bank building 00:21:21.439 --> 00:21:25.000 where everyone is welcome, without having to consume anything. 00:21:25.680 --> 00:21:29.600 The referendum is a political process. 00:21:29.600 --> 00:21:35.880 People ask themselves questions 00:21:35.880 --> 00:21:39.520 and when people ask themselves questions, they think. 00:21:39.520 --> 00:21:42.640 In that way, awareness starts to exist. 00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:46.720 The action of the money pile in Bern also fits in that context. 00:21:53.800 --> 00:21:58.480 The basic income is an idea in a situation 00:21:58.480 --> 00:22:02.680 where there is plenty of everything. 00:22:03.556 --> 00:22:07.000 These are in fact 8 million real Swiss coins. 00:22:07.000 --> 00:22:11.850 With this stunt, "Generation basic income" drew international attention. 00:22:11.840 --> 00:22:15.560 You stand in front of that money pile and you ask yourself: 00:22:15.560 --> 00:22:18.400 "What's still missing, if everything is there?" 00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:23.439 The Swiss are often said to be neutral. 00:22:23.439 --> 00:22:25.120 Enno Schmidt is very clear: 00:22:25.120 --> 00:22:28.560 Even in a rich country like Switzerland, a basic income 00:22:28.560 --> 00:22:31.000 is possible and necessary. 00:22:33.080 --> 00:22:39.200 Whether people vote yes or no, is of course very important to us. 00:22:39.200 --> 00:22:41.200 We want to win. 00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:44.840 But to understand how a democracy works, you have to say: 00:22:44.840 --> 00:22:48.280 even if the majority votes against basic income, 00:22:48.280 --> 00:22:51.880 it tells us where we stand, and that's good. 00:22:55.000 --> 00:22:58.725 Enno and Co. have a long way to go with their campaign 00:22:58.725 --> 00:23:01.614 because the man in the street still has many doubts. 00:23:01.614 --> 00:23:07.360 I really don't know yet, you have to weigh up these things. 00:23:07.360 --> 00:23:10.320 I haven't thought enough about it yet. 00:23:10.320 --> 00:23:16.280 I can't say if I find it good or bad. 00:23:16.040 --> 00:23:18.040 I really don't know yet. 00:23:18.040 --> 00:23:22.600 With basic income a discussion gets started 00:23:22.600 --> 00:23:27.400 about what you really want to do. 00:23:27.400 --> 00:23:32.520 I'd take the time to ask myself 00:23:32.520 --> 00:23:37.200 if what I'm doing now is what I really want to do. 00:23:37.200 --> 00:23:39.200 It's a development. 00:23:39.200 --> 00:23:43.720 This is what we're doing now as a part of history. 00:23:43.720 --> 00:23:48.560 It's necessary that a lot of people concern themselves with basic income 00:23:48.560 --> 00:23:52.880 and develop the ability necessary for that. 00:23:52.880 --> 00:23:55.640 It shows when you think about the matter. 00:23:55.640 --> 00:23:58.720 A lot of people can't think for themselves. 00:23:58.720 --> 00:24:02.640 They give in to an argument "and that's that". 00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:06.560 So they have to develop independence, 00:24:06.560 --> 00:24:09.960 just like other powers they don't have yet. 00:24:09.960 --> 00:24:12.640 Then you're already close to a basic income. 00:24:13.000 --> 00:24:18.000 Alright, dear Swiss, but you're not that special. 00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:20.839 In Europe, citizens can submit an initiative as well. 00:24:20.839 --> 00:24:23.039 The European citizen's initiative 00:24:23.039 --> 00:24:26.880 is an initiative from the European Commission. 00:24:26.880 --> 00:24:30.399 Christina Lambrecht of the Belgian movement for basic income 00:24:30.399 --> 00:24:32.480 explains how it works. 00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:36.559 We have written up a text regarding basic income. 00:24:36.559 --> 00:24:38.760 We submitted it to the Commission, 00:24:38.760 --> 00:24:41.210 and they said "Okay, you can go for it." 00:24:41.560 --> 00:24:45.800 First of all, we have to surpass a minimum threshold of 7 countries. 00:24:45.800 --> 00:24:48.273 15 countries have already joined the campaign, 00:24:48.273 --> 00:24:50.426 and are getting ready to collect signatures. 00:24:50.426 --> 00:24:54.599 So in Belgium we had to reach 16,500 signatures. 00:24:54.599 --> 00:24:57.160 We reached 19,500. 00:24:57.160 --> 00:24:59.519 When I reached the ministry, 00:24:59.519 --> 00:25:02.719 they said to me, very friendly, mind you, 00:25:02.719 --> 00:25:05.689 dear madam, we can't do anything with that at the moment, 00:25:05.689 --> 00:25:08.760 at this moment everyone is in election mode, 00:25:08.760 --> 00:25:11.960 and the current minister of home affairs, 00:25:11.960 --> 00:25:15.719 I won't mention her name, that's not very friendly, 00:25:15.719 --> 00:25:18.399 she's going to file that in a cabinet 00:25:18.399 --> 00:25:20.320 and no one's going to look at it anymore. 00:25:20.320 --> 00:25:25.359 So in my home I have 19,500 signatures of all those Belgians, 00:25:25.359 --> 00:25:28.759 from north and south who supported our initiative 00:25:28.759 --> 00:25:32.119 and frankly haven't been recognized to say 00:25:32.119 --> 00:25:36.719 "Look, we want the European Commission to put that idea on the table." 00:25:38.139 --> 00:25:40.070 Ok, let's go back to Switzerland. 00:25:40.070 --> 00:25:42.600 Ironically, the country that isn't a member of the EU 00:25:42.600 --> 00:25:46.549 and where a national citizen's initiative is binding. 00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:01.680 Tumasch is a biological farmer 00:26:01.680 --> 00:26:04.560 in the beautiful mountains of Lower Engadin. 00:26:07.250 --> 00:26:12.560 What would happen, if an unconditional basic income was implemented? 00:26:12.560 --> 00:26:14.760 What do you think about it? 00:26:14.760 --> 00:26:20.240 I would get a freedom I do not currently have. 00:26:20.240 --> 00:26:25.680 The basic income would be a sort of subsisdy. 00:26:27.200 --> 00:26:32.800 But I would still keep working. And it has more advantages. 00:26:32.800 --> 00:26:36.880 Like what? - It's the only solution 00:26:36.880 --> 00:26:41.120 for our disrupted relations... 00:26:41.120 --> 00:26:47.400 ...or rather our disrupted financial system. 00:26:47.400 --> 00:26:53.760 That's really a social problem that needs a solution. 00:26:53.760 --> 00:26:59.440 And right now there is no better idea than basic income. 00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:03.000 In Switzerland the idea is ripening, 00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:04.679 but how are we doing? 00:27:04.679 --> 00:27:08.119 We're willing to dream about a better future, 00:27:08.119 --> 00:27:09.880 but our daily way of life 00:27:09.880 --> 00:27:12.320 is still controlled by entrenched ideas. 00:27:12.320 --> 00:27:14.919 The concept of a work week, 00:27:14.919 --> 00:27:16.839 that's an obsolete concept. 00:27:16.839 --> 00:27:20.000 The concept of a retirement pension at a certain age, 00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:22.240 that's actually also an obsolete concept. 00:27:23.039 --> 00:27:26.719 En then there's the robots, those are only getting better at their work 00:27:26.719 --> 00:27:28.879 and they don't get burnouts. 00:27:28.879 --> 00:27:31.679 Robots are already taking over a large part of our work 00:27:31.679 --> 00:27:35.439 and in the future that will increase by another 47%. 00:27:37.129 --> 00:27:40.549 We can actually afford to hand out money to everyone 00:27:40.549 --> 00:27:43.359 and those who want to work get some more money 00:27:43.359 --> 00:27:45.069 and those who don't want to work 00:27:45.069 --> 00:27:47.480 they don't work and do what they want. 00:27:47.480 --> 00:27:50.240 In principle, society is rich enough to do that. 00:27:50.240 --> 00:27:53.359 With a basic income really everyone 00:27:53.359 --> 00:27:56.000 in the history of mankind 00:27:56.000 --> 00:27:58.640 gets the choice about the kind of work they want to do. 00:28:00.840 --> 00:28:04.000 Finally the flexible labor market that people want so badly. 00:28:05.440 --> 00:28:11.200 "Labor market" is actually an ugly word; people are not merchandise. 00:28:11.200 --> 00:28:16.280 But with a basic income it will finally become a real market. 00:28:16.280 --> 00:28:20.880 Then you can say yes or no to a job. So you can also say no. 00:28:21.000 --> 00:28:24.080 With a basic income for everyone 00:28:24.080 --> 00:28:28.630 you radically oppose the ruling status quo. 00:28:28.630 --> 00:28:32.360 Freedom must be the most important thing, those who want to work can do that 00:28:32.360 --> 00:28:34.560 and so can those who don't. 00:28:34.560 --> 00:28:36.439 Power to the people. 00:28:36.439 --> 00:28:38.420 Who could be opposed to that? 00:28:42.360 --> 00:28:46.920 If people have a choice, they are empowered to make their own decisions, 00:28:46.920 --> 00:28:50.760 they are empowered to become responsible, democratic citizens. 00:28:50.760 --> 00:28:56.840 This is not always in business' interest or in every politicians' interest. 00:28:57.000 --> 00:29:00.799 Basic income will give employees the possibility 00:29:00.799 --> 00:29:03.480 to say no to unattractive jobs. 00:29:03.480 --> 00:29:06.720 At a recent debate about basic income 00:29:06.720 --> 00:29:08.640 this aspect quickly becomes the topic. 00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:12.439 The basic income is a floor, a base, 00:29:12.439 --> 00:29:14.800 on which people can build a life. 00:29:14.800 --> 00:29:17.920 Not a net in which people remain trapped. 00:29:17.920 --> 00:29:20.760 Well, when you think about it a bit, 00:29:20.760 --> 00:29:23.879 it turns out it's not just something that's fair, 00:29:23.879 --> 00:29:26.220 but also better for the economy 00:29:26.220 --> 00:29:28.559 and better for the health of our society. 00:29:28.559 --> 00:29:32.289 I mentioned just now, and I think we fully agree, 00:29:32.289 --> 00:29:35.439 our labor market is changing greatly. 00:29:35.439 --> 00:29:40.640 But paying a basic income for that is nonsense! 00:29:40.640 --> 00:29:43.799 Francine Mestrum continues to oppose the basic income 00:29:43.799 --> 00:29:47.000 because she worries about the liberal thinking behind it 00:29:47.000 --> 00:29:51.520 and possible deterioration of current social protection. 00:29:51.520 --> 00:29:54.600 There are thousands of people waiting, 00:29:54.600 --> 00:29:57.520 who will take any job. 00:29:57.520 --> 00:30:02.239 So, not a chance that employers will say 00:30:02.239 --> 00:30:03.959 "We'll still pay you just as much" 00:30:03.959 --> 00:30:07.879 "Oh, you don't want to do that work anymore, I will pay you some more" 00:30:07.879 --> 00:30:10.879 That chance is zero. 00:30:10.879 --> 00:30:12.599 But what is something that could happen? 00:30:12.599 --> 00:30:17.439 What could happen, well, what my organisation is working on 00:30:17.439 --> 00:30:19.959 and what we try to defend 00:30:19.959 --> 00:30:22.860 is a reform of the social protection system. 00:30:22.860 --> 00:30:26.029 We have worked for a 100 years 00:30:26.029 --> 00:30:30.480 on a system of social protection with rights. 00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:37.719 And today it's not working well enough yet. 00:30:37.719 --> 00:30:41.000 So we need to improve it, 00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:43.599 but we can't throw it overboard, 00:30:43.599 --> 00:30:45.480 we don't have that right. 00:30:45.480 --> 00:30:49.400 I don't think it's useful to turn the knobs 00:30:49.400 --> 00:30:52.270 and increase child benefits a bit for the first one, 00:30:52.270 --> 00:30:54.520 decrease a bit for the second one, and... 00:30:54.520 --> 00:30:57.629 It no longer works, we must dare to rethink it radically. 00:30:58.079 --> 00:31:01.840 Young people are more prone to question existing systems 00:31:01.840 --> 00:31:05.379 and we hear and see that at this debate. 00:31:05.379 --> 00:31:08.000 Yes, just like most people who came to listen, 00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:11.599 I have heard good arguments for and against. 00:31:11.599 --> 00:31:15.240 Yes, a friend of mine introduced it a year or two ago 00:31:15.240 --> 00:31:17.390 and I was immediately opposed. 00:31:17.390 --> 00:31:20.680 Because I thought, that is such a leftist utopia, 00:31:20.680 --> 00:31:23.560 no realistic person can be in favor of that. 00:31:23.560 --> 00:31:26.159 But in the meantime I've read so much about it 00:31:26.159 --> 00:31:27.666 and I've changed my mind. 00:31:27.666 --> 00:31:30.680 I see a young generation of people 00:31:30.680 --> 00:31:33.379 and in the coming years, this young generation 00:31:33.379 --> 00:31:34.840 will have to raise its voice. 00:31:34.840 --> 00:31:38.000 A young generation of people who think completely differently 00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:40.560 about work, about society. 00:31:40.560 --> 00:31:43.080 Take me as an example: I am unemployed, 00:31:43.080 --> 00:31:45.080 I'm educated, I'm unemployed. 00:31:45.080 --> 00:31:46.599 Diploma, still unemployed. 00:31:46.599 --> 00:31:49.199 Started a degree, completed it, still unemployed. 00:31:49.199 --> 00:31:51.990 Completed paid training, still unemployed. 00:31:51.990 --> 00:31:54.000 If someone were in my place, they would say 00:31:54.000 --> 00:31:56.919 Don't do it, just go to sleep. 00:31:56.919 --> 00:32:00.560 Young people don't think like the previous generation, 00:32:00.560 --> 00:32:04.680 For them the world is something new, they're discovering it. 00:32:04.680 --> 00:32:07.080 I think young people 00:32:07.080 --> 00:32:10.159 are far more likely to assume the existence of prosperity. 00:32:10.159 --> 00:32:13.159 I think it's good that people start thinking 00:32:13.159 --> 00:32:16.680 about the social rights of a human 00:32:16.680 --> 00:32:19.400 and these days people mostly point towards the duties. 00:32:19.400 --> 00:32:22.830 These days people are mostly thinking about activating, activating, 00:32:22.830 --> 00:32:25.050 but yes, indeed, the duty to contribute, 00:32:25.050 --> 00:32:27.240 but you're also entitled to get something. 00:32:27.240 --> 00:32:30.159 Basic income underscores that right and creates happiness. 00:32:30.159 --> 00:32:34.159 Then I want to ask you what you're going to do with your basic income system 00:32:34.159 --> 00:32:38.169 when someone 00:32:38.169 --> 00:32:42.239 is feeling down, 00:32:42.239 --> 00:32:46.280 say, he goes gambling one night, and he loses everything. 00:32:46.280 --> 00:32:50.190 His money is gone, what do you tell him? 00:32:50.190 --> 00:32:53.759 "You've had your chance. Too bad."? 00:32:53.759 --> 00:32:56.040 Will he die in the gutter, or what? 00:32:56.040 --> 00:32:58.186 A universal scheme 00:32:58.186 --> 00:33:02.002 means, I know you're receiving it, and you know I'm receiving it. 00:33:02.002 --> 00:33:04.520 It means, I can say to you: 00:33:04.520 --> 00:33:08.880 You've got a basic income, try make something out of it. 00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:10.880 And you can say the same to me. 00:33:10.880 --> 00:33:16.560 When you talk to the people in Otjivero, they will tell you: 00:33:16.560 --> 00:33:20.039 We feel like one family. 00:33:21.440 --> 00:33:27.480 They told us before that no one was caring for anyone. 00:33:28.160 --> 00:33:33.146 Even if there was a fight at a house close to you, 00:33:33.146 --> 00:33:36.112 you would not go and enquire. 00:33:36.112 --> 00:33:41.200 But now we have grown into one family. 00:33:46.000 --> 00:33:50.519 So basic income enhances the community feeling. 00:33:50.519 --> 00:33:52.280 But what about inflation? 00:33:52.280 --> 00:33:53.960 As healthy, consuming Belgians, 00:33:53.960 --> 00:33:56.000 wouldn't we want to know if our bread 00:33:56.000 --> 00:33:59.000 will suddenly become three times as expensive? 00:33:59.759 --> 00:34:05.160 It actually has a potentially lowering effect on prices. 00:34:05.160 --> 00:34:10.159 If you provide a basic income, and if that leads to more demand 00:34:10.159 --> 00:34:15.600 for local food or local services, guess what happens? 00:34:15.600 --> 00:34:19.359 They materialise, because people have greater incentive 00:34:19.359 --> 00:34:22.639 to increase the supply of those items. 00:34:22.639 --> 00:34:29.560 That money circulates, and in fact improves the economy of the country 00:34:29.560 --> 00:34:34.920 and, for that matter, the economy of the so called rural areas. 00:34:34.920 --> 00:34:40.280 So you actually help strengthen the local economy, improve job creation, 00:34:40.280 --> 00:34:44.280 and those tend to be import-substituting. 00:34:44.280 --> 00:34:46.360 The money will not disappear, 00:34:46.360 --> 00:34:52.106 like diamonds which have been exported 00:34:52.106 --> 00:34:55.152 out of the country. It's here. 00:34:55.152 --> 00:34:58.080 It leads to more money being generated, 00:34:58.080 --> 00:35:02.200 because production goes up, and tax income goes up, etc. 00:35:02.200 --> 00:35:04.966 So you can actually find 00:35:04.966 --> 00:35:08.282 that using a basic income has a growth potential. 00:35:08.282 --> 00:35:11.160 I don't think we need any more pilots 00:35:11.160 --> 00:35:14.320 to prove what can be done with that. 00:35:14.320 --> 00:35:17.516 Otjivero is basically like a window 00:35:17.516 --> 00:35:20.772 how Namibia could develop what could be done. 00:35:20.772 --> 00:35:25.200 Yes, Namibia can be that example. 00:35:25.200 --> 00:35:30.400 If the leaders just take the courage and the political will, 00:35:30.400 --> 00:35:33.640 Namibia can become that country in the world. 00:35:33.640 --> 00:35:38.640 Suddenly, people are saying: wow, actually for many years we thought 00:35:38.640 --> 00:35:43.200 that it would be impossible to have a basic income in... Africa?! 00:35:43.200 --> 00:35:46.260 Our coalition has made the calculations. 00:35:46.260 --> 00:35:50.040 And we have found that it is feasible 00:35:50.040 --> 00:35:52.680 to implement a b.i.g. [Basic Income Grant] nationally. 00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:14.526 And for Belgium? 00:36:14.526 --> 00:36:16.822 Is it affordable in Belgium? 00:36:16.822 --> 00:36:20.510 It's not affordable. 00:36:20.510 --> 00:36:23.519 Bullshit, there is enough prosperity in this world. 00:36:23.519 --> 00:36:26.640 We all know, nowadays that the 85 richest people on this planet 00:36:26.640 --> 00:36:29.719 own as much as the 3.5 billion poorest. 00:36:29.719 --> 00:36:32.509 With a basic income, you can scrap a number of budget items 00:36:32.509 --> 00:36:34.199 from your social protection. 00:36:34.199 --> 00:36:36.800 Income support, for example, disappears. 00:36:36.800 --> 00:36:39.329 I've calculated it, there's about 00:36:39.329 --> 00:36:42.480 12 to 13 billion you can scrap. 00:36:42.480 --> 00:36:46.640 12 to 13 billion, that's not enough. 00:36:46.640 --> 00:36:50.719 And I challenge all proponents of basic income 00:36:50.719 --> 00:36:52.799 to come with a detailed, 00:36:52.799 --> 00:36:57.360 well-founded calculation for basic income. 00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:01.079 Very well, miss Mestrum, these are Pierre Catelin, 00:37:01.079 --> 00:37:03.670 Ismaël Daoud and Axelle De Brandt. 00:37:03.670 --> 00:37:06.600 Axelle and Pierre are therapists and are working on their book 00:37:06.600 --> 00:37:10.359 about the model 'revenue de base XXL'. 00:37:10.359 --> 00:37:14.119 Ismaël is an engineer and worked in his spare time for 6 months 00:37:14.119 --> 00:37:15.439 on a calculation model. 00:37:15.439 --> 00:37:20.000 In his spare time, because for now we don't have a basic income yet 00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:23.000 to be free and innovative citizens. 00:37:23.000 --> 00:37:29.000 Pierre and Axelle's model for basic income is very generous 00:37:29.000 --> 00:37:32.800 so my first reaction was like, it's not feasible. 00:37:32.800 --> 00:37:39.310 But then, I was curious and tried to calculate. 00:37:43.640 --> 00:37:47.320 If basic income is adopted, it will happen here. 00:37:47.320 --> 00:37:53.200 Our MPs will have less power if they vote for this, it takes courage. 00:38:00.120 --> 00:38:04.480 He we are in the chamber of the federal parliament of Belgium. 00:38:04.480 --> 00:38:08.760 Recently they voted for the 6th reform of the State, 00:38:08.760 --> 00:38:11.590 which transfers competences 00:38:11.590 --> 00:38:14.440 from the federal level towards regions and communities. 00:38:14.440 --> 00:38:16.560 But we forgot about the citizens. 00:38:16.560 --> 00:38:22.200 We had to organise a competence switch from public administrators to the citizens 00:38:22.200 --> 00:38:26.320 therefore we need a 7th reform of the State that does just that. 00:38:27.480 --> 00:38:31.920 In my job 00:38:31.920 --> 00:38:35.600 I help people reorganise their lives. 00:38:35.600 --> 00:38:41.066 And what people often tell me is, 00:38:41.066 --> 00:38:43.300 they need more money and more time. 00:38:43.300 --> 00:38:46.439 It's quantified as follows, 00:38:46.439 --> 00:38:49.540 in billions of francs. 00:38:50.080 --> 00:38:54.000 We need 187 billion euros to pay a basic income 00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:58.400 of 1500 Euros to every adult, lifelong, 00:38:58.400 --> 00:39:00.319 and also 200 euros to each child 00:39:00.319 --> 00:39:05.700 plus all personal insurances, paid by the government. 00:39:05.700 --> 00:39:09.399 We have recalculated it all, and figures look correct. 00:39:09.399 --> 00:39:12.000 But isn't all of this, a bit too generous? 00:39:13.240 --> 00:39:17.440 If the sums were lower, I'm afraid 00:39:17.440 --> 00:39:20.520 we would ignore the potential of the system: 00:39:20.520 --> 00:39:22.800 getting more freedom. 00:39:22.800 --> 00:39:28.160 Firstly there are government expenditures that become superfluous, 00:39:28.160 --> 00:39:31.800 because they are replaced. 00:39:31.800 --> 00:39:37.120 The state won't need to spend 41 billion on pensions anymore 00:39:37.120 --> 00:39:40.680 because basic income is itself a sort of pension. 00:39:40.680 --> 00:39:43.800 Unemployment benefits would also become redundant 00:39:43.800 --> 00:39:47.400 because in this system there is no unemployment. 00:39:47.400 --> 00:39:50.480 Whether you work or not, you get 1500 euros per month. 00:39:51.000 --> 00:39:53.359 A whole range of things like benefits 00:39:53.359 --> 00:39:55.400 and pensions can be replaced, 00:39:55.400 --> 00:39:58.320 thus saving about 71 billion, 00:39:58.320 --> 00:40:02.160 but we still need to find 116.7 billion. 00:40:02.160 --> 00:40:05.400 By a sound rationalisation of public administration, 00:40:05.400 --> 00:40:10.080 Ishmael finds another 25 billion. 00:40:10.080 --> 00:40:15.400 The third part consists of extra revenues from a tax shift. 00:40:15.400 --> 00:40:20.160 It will focus on those who are now undertaxed. 00:40:20.160 --> 00:40:23.760 In Belgium capital is taxed at 6 percent, 00:40:23.760 --> 00:40:28.440 Labour is taxed at 43 percent, that's a big difference. 00:40:28.440 --> 00:40:34.280 The idea is to increase taxes on capital, movable or immovable goods. 00:40:34.280 --> 00:40:40.200 Then you can reduce taxes on labour. 00:40:40.200 --> 00:40:43.840 So you get a more balanced system 00:40:43.840 --> 00:40:46.960 where people do not have to protest in the streets, 00:40:46.960 --> 00:40:50.000 because they feel they have contributed enough. 00:40:50.000 --> 00:40:54.320 We consider it a noble contribution. 00:40:54.320 --> 00:40:57.120 It offers a wide margin in society. 00:40:57.120 --> 00:40:59.960 When people now hear the word 'contribution', 00:40:59.960 --> 00:41:04.480 they think it's a swindle. That is not the goal. 00:41:04.480 --> 00:41:08.120 There should be a differentiated VAT system: 00:41:08.120 --> 00:41:12.480 higher for luxury goods, lower for basic goods. 00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:16.960 But the average VAT should be around 25 percent. 00:41:16.960 --> 00:41:20.960 That provides another 16 billion euros. 00:41:21.000 --> 00:41:25.200 By an average increase of VAT to 25%, 00:41:25.200 --> 00:41:30.160 and other shifts on taxes and charges, we arrive at 95.4 billion. 00:41:30.160 --> 00:41:32.480 That brings us to a positive balance. 00:41:32.480 --> 00:41:36.519 This model results in a profit of more than 4 billion for the government. 00:41:37.519 --> 00:41:40.549 Namibia showed us how purchase power can rise. 00:41:40.549 --> 00:41:42.679 But an exact projection of the spending power 00:41:42.679 --> 00:41:45.280 isn't possible with this static model. 00:41:45.280 --> 00:41:47.000 They also consider, however, 00:41:47.000 --> 00:41:49.600 residual earnings and cost of government. 00:41:49.600 --> 00:41:53.920 The price of the launch of the basic income is 0 euro, 00:41:53.920 --> 00:41:57.520 provided that some public enterprises are privatized. 00:41:57.520 --> 00:42:01.250 Dear Pierre, Ishmael and Axelle, are you really sure of this model? 00:42:02.200 --> 00:42:03.640 Yes, - Absolutely. 00:42:03.640 --> 00:42:05.640 In fact it will generate savings 00:42:05.640 --> 00:42:08.600 without deterioration of public services. 00:42:08.600 --> 00:42:12.000 Because this way, the system is much simpler. 00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:16.200 You actually begins with a clean slate. 00:42:16.200 --> 00:42:21.160 There are no poltical a prioris or ideologies. 00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:23.919 Again, why should you do it? 00:42:23.919 --> 00:42:27.440 Why should you give basic income to rich people? 00:42:27.440 --> 00:42:30.000 Can somebody kindly answer this simple question? 00:42:30.280 --> 00:42:34.880 Basic income is for everyone, that's the difference. 00:42:34.880 --> 00:42:40.880 Some people do not realise that excluding rich people 00:42:40.880 --> 00:42:44.280 is still excluding people. 00:42:44.280 --> 00:42:48.960 A basic income excludes no one, it is not a class struggle. 00:42:48.960 --> 00:42:50.720 It is about the human. 00:42:50.500 --> 00:42:53.000 That problem has been solved as well. 00:42:53.000 --> 00:42:55.990 (Applause) 00:42:55.990 --> 00:42:59.360 Politicians are afraid that if you empower people too much, 00:42:59.360 --> 00:43:03.840 they stand up and demand things and then they become empowered citizens. 00:43:03.840 --> 00:43:06.160 And I think, politicians are afraid of that. 00:43:06.160 --> 00:43:09.360 Because in Otjivero you could see this empowerment process. 00:43:09.360 --> 00:43:11.656 They people can tell their own stories, 00:43:11.656 --> 00:43:14.562 they even demanded the President to come out and say, 00:43:14.562 --> 00:43:17.360 if you still have doubts about the basic income grant, 00:43:17.360 --> 00:43:20.400 why don't you then come to Otjivero and discuss with us? 00:43:20.400 --> 00:43:25.320 It is not that it isn't spoken about in politics. 00:43:25.320 --> 00:43:31.600 A lot of politicians in Germany, Switzer- land and Canada are talking about it. 00:43:31.600 --> 00:43:34.880 In a short term, it will be on the political agenda. 00:43:35.000 --> 00:43:37.680 One of the problems with basic income 00:43:37.680 --> 00:43:44.720 is that within each party there are both proponents and opponents 00:43:44.720 --> 00:43:50.640 and sometimes you find very emotional proponents and opponents 00:43:50.640 --> 00:43:53.379 and that in fact makes it difficult to move forward. 00:43:53.379 --> 00:43:57.180 Because it is difficult for a party to find enough unity within itself 00:43:57.180 --> 00:43:59.280 to effectively promote the idea. 00:43:59.280 --> 00:44:01.480 To me, it also proves that it is an idea 00:44:01.480 --> 00:44:03.640 of the future and not of the past, 00:44:03.640 --> 00:44:06.720 because this left-right polarisation is an illusion. 00:44:06.720 --> 00:44:12.286 It stems from our parliamentary system that dates from the 19th century. 00:44:12.286 --> 00:44:17.592 The only Belgian party with basic income in its program 00:44:17.592 --> 00:44:20.000 is the Pirate Party. 00:44:27.840 --> 00:44:30.920 Basic Income Now, is their message. 00:44:30.920 --> 00:44:35.309 There is no discussion about another economic paradigm 00:44:35.309 --> 00:44:37.880 or another way to construct the welfare state, 00:44:37.880 --> 00:44:40.110 because we're stuck in, 'this is what we have now' 00:44:40.110 --> 00:44:41.879 and we don't dare to break away from that, 00:44:41.879 --> 00:44:44.280 we must bind our voters to us 00:44:44.280 --> 00:44:47.079 and satisfy them and they don't believe in it. 00:44:47.079 --> 00:44:52.400 Every new party, especially a party with refreshing and good ideas, 00:44:52.400 --> 00:44:57.809 is more dangerous than an idiot talking some bullshit. 00:44:57.809 --> 00:45:01.239 We were a very dangerous party in that way 00:45:03.366 --> 00:45:04.210 because we certainly had a strong image, 00:45:04.210 --> 00:45:06.120 we were well prepared. 00:45:06.120 --> 00:45:11.380 Duchatelet came up with a clear proposal for basic income in the late 90s. 00:45:11.380 --> 00:45:13.579 with his party Vivant. 00:45:13.579 --> 00:45:15.909 We got a lot of votes, by the way. 00:45:15.909 --> 00:45:19.840 In 1999 we got 1 in 40 votes. For a party 00:45:19.840 --> 00:45:23.850 that barely got any TV coverage, that's a great result. 00:45:23.850 --> 00:45:27.000 So after the national elections 00:45:27.000 --> 00:45:29.259 they immediately introduced an electoral threshold, 00:45:29.259 --> 00:45:32.526 to make sure that next time we wouldn't be successful. 00:45:53.176 --> 00:45:57.453 For the benefit of the rich employees must retreat. 00:45:57.453 --> 00:46:01.320 It is becoming extremely urgent 00:46:01.320 --> 00:46:04.840 that we need a new progressive politics of redistribution 00:46:04.840 --> 00:46:07.800 and a new system of income distribution 00:46:07.800 --> 00:46:11.480 in which people have the right to basic security 00:46:11.480 --> 00:46:14.400 to exist as a human being in modern society. 00:46:14.400 --> 00:46:17.120 If basic income is not part 00:46:17.120 --> 00:46:19.440 of that progressive strategy, 00:46:19.440 --> 00:46:21.136 then I think we are entitled 00:46:21.136 --> 00:46:23.587 to be very alarmed about what's happening. 00:46:23.587 --> 00:46:28.488 Therefore, it is important that this utopia, this dream, gives people hope 00:46:28.490 --> 00:46:31.040 and gives people the message, 00:46:31.040 --> 00:46:34.400 it's not wrong to be optimistic and hopeful. 00:46:34.400 --> 00:46:37.240 'Be outraged, be committed' 00:46:37.240 --> 00:46:40.079 he says, and I completely agree with that. 00:46:40.079 --> 00:46:44.640 Think about your world, your existence, your job, your life 00:46:44.640 --> 00:46:48.519 and try from there to mean something in the world, 00:46:48.519 --> 00:46:52.109 and don't wait until some great leader 00:46:52.109 --> 00:46:53.930 says from above, that's the way to act. 00:46:53.930 --> 00:46:59.480 If we allow our societies to become more and more unequal, 00:46:59.480 --> 00:47:03.920 and more and more prone to insecurity for masses of people, 00:47:03.920 --> 00:47:05.920 then it will be scary. 00:47:30.000 --> 00:47:34.120 A society with fewer insecure and angry people: 00:47:34.120 --> 00:47:37.519 could a basic income really achieve this? 00:47:37.519 --> 00:47:40.599 Basic income also poses new questions: 00:47:40.599 --> 00:47:43.039 what will happen to migration, 00:47:43.039 --> 00:47:45.960 if basic income only exists in Belgium? 00:47:45.960 --> 00:47:48.600 Isn't the implementation required at a European level 00:47:48.600 --> 00:47:51.519 or even to be studied globally? 00:47:51.519 --> 00:47:55.120 Will we only then be talking about a real utopia? 00:47:55.120 --> 00:48:03.079 Yes, I will tell you, it's unthinkable not to do it. 00:48:03.079 --> 00:48:08.880 Yes, because only 8% of the people are producing everything we need. 00:48:08.880 --> 00:48:15.159 And the other 92%, do we need to invent jobs for them 00:48:15.159 --> 00:48:18.539 In some administration in order to give them money? 00:48:18.539 --> 00:48:20.350 No, just give money to everyone. 00:48:20.360 --> 00:48:26.360 People are scared of the Basic Income Grant, 00:48:26.360 --> 00:48:32.520 because it does not stop of giving 100 Namibian dollars to poor Namibians. 00:48:32.520 --> 00:48:35.200 But it touches many, many questions. 00:48:35.200 --> 00:48:39.600 The thing is, that when any new idea, 00:48:39.600 --> 00:48:44.160 or any idea that, confronting all problems, comes up, 00:48:44.160 --> 00:48:49.000 the biggest challenge for people is to open their minds. 00:49:22.520 --> 00:49:26.640 It's my life. It's not my job, it's my life. 00:49:59.000 --> 00:50:03.480 Admittedly, something to talk about during upcoming family dinners. 00:50:04.960 --> 00:50:07.080 If you are looking for additional arguments, 00:50:07.080 --> 00:50:09.759 on our Facebook page you will find more information 00:50:09.759 --> 00:50:14.119 about the financing model proposed by Ismaël, Pierre en Axelle. 00:50:14.119 --> 00:50:17.320 And for those who still consider basic income a stupid idea... 00:50:17.320 --> 00:50:21.779 the right to vote for women was also considered a stupid idea not so long ago. 00:50:22.679 --> 00:50:26.879 Wishing you happy holidays 00:50:26.879 --> 00:50:29.800 and a new year with only pleasant surprises 00:50:29.800 --> 00:50:34.200 I hope to see you back for a new Panorama on Thursday 8th January. 00:50:34.200 --> 00:50:36.200 Thank you for watching.