1 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:12,600 It has given me a dignified existence. 2 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:17,280 I used to depend on my husband. 3 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:23,470 But thanks to the basic income, that changed for me. 4 00:00:23,470 --> 00:00:27,820 If I make beautiful clothes and can sell them, then I feel good. 5 00:00:27,820 --> 00:00:32,759 Then I also did something for it. 6 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:49,600 Good evening, welcome to Panorama. 7 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:53,360 Forget everything you thought and think about work and income, 8 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:56,150 tonight we are going to wipe the blackboard clean, 9 00:00:56,150 --> 00:01:00,080 and put another idea on it: the basic income for everyone. 10 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:05,399 What if, and we're not joking here, 11 00:01:05,399 --> 00:01:08,920 what if everyone in our country aged 18 and over received 12 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:12,559 1500 euros from the government each month? 13 00:01:12,559 --> 00:01:15,839 Those who want more can still work on top of that basic income, 14 00:01:15,839 --> 00:01:19,679 those for whom 1500 euros is enough can do other enjoyable things. 15 00:01:19,679 --> 00:01:21,719 However, we will scrap all other benefits 16 00:01:21,719 --> 00:01:25,439 such as income support, pensions, unemployment benefits, etc. 17 00:01:25,439 --> 00:01:29,240 Everyone gets 1500s euros a month. 18 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:31,679 Unconditionally and until the end of your days. 19 00:01:31,679 --> 00:01:34,650 Madness, I already hear you think. 20 00:01:34,650 --> 00:01:36,540 Well, you should keep watching then, 21 00:01:36,540 --> 00:01:39,309 because then you will see that the Swiss are going to have 22 00:01:39,309 --> 00:01:44,109 a referendum about that basic income and that it already exists in practice. 23 00:01:44,109 --> 00:01:46,840 Among others, in a village in Namibia. 24 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:50,579 Reports by Alina Kneepkens and Jozef Devillé. 25 00:01:55,899 --> 00:02:01,243 Our country is at a standstill, we break world records on traffic congestion, 26 00:02:01,243 --> 00:02:04,920 1 in 10 Belgian employees sits at home with a burnout 27 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:07,039 and not a single country can beat Belgium 28 00:02:07,039 --> 00:02:09,719 at taking antidepressants and sleeping pills. 29 00:02:09,719 --> 00:02:13,359 We work ourselves half to death, but government after government 30 00:02:13,359 --> 00:02:15,280 we are asked to put some more effort 31 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:17,120 because we need to work even harder 32 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:19,040 and the government needs to cut spending. 33 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:22,089 The government wants at least to meet its budget targets. 34 00:02:22,089 --> 00:02:24,279 Which has previously resulted in 35 00:02:24,279 --> 00:02:26,469 the restructuration of the budget. 36 00:02:26,469 --> 00:02:28,660 And now we must to cut spending before all. 37 00:02:28,660 --> 00:02:31,489 Flanders has no money and the Federal Government has no money either. 38 00:02:31,489 --> 00:02:34,119 The needed effort is already great and it will increase. 39 00:02:34,119 --> 00:02:36,200 That is also the choice we make. 40 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,680 It is felt that many people can no longer keep up 41 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:43,000 and that the middle class is slowly being squeezed dry. 42 00:02:43,490 --> 00:02:48,140 There is great worry among the Belgian working population. 43 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:52,000 We often hear that there is no alternative, 44 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,000 that we can't do anything but cut spending. 45 00:02:55,080 --> 00:03:00,620 But it turns out that one big idea for changing how the government provides financial assistance 46 00:03:01,070 --> 00:03:04,030 may have appeal to some on the left and the right. 47 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:09,516 It is a minimum level of government payments, known as guaranteed basic income. 48 00:03:09,852 --> 00:03:14,480 What would the world be like if everyone had the right to earn an income, 49 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:17,280 even if they couldn't find employment? 50 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:20,480 Today, a utopia where everyone gets paid? 51 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:23,460 Switzerland may scrap its anti-poverty programs 52 00:03:23,460 --> 00:03:26,000 and replace them with an unconditional basic income. 53 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:30,560 An unconditional basic income, what is that? 54 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:34,879 Exactly what the word says, that everyone aged 18 or older, 55 00:03:34,879 --> 00:03:37,160 regardless of gender or current income, 56 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:40,039 receives a basic income from the government, 57 00:03:40,039 --> 00:03:42,679 unconditionally, whether you have a job, 58 00:03:42,679 --> 00:03:45,920 are studying or remain at home to take care of the kids, 59 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:50,250 everyone receives the same to meet his basic needs. 60 00:03:50,250 --> 00:03:55,400 You are allowed to work and earn as much as you want on top of your basic income. 61 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:58,280 In Belgium, various people have been working 62 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:00,759 on a basic income since the 80s. 63 00:04:00,759 --> 00:04:03,719 For example, Philippe van Parijs set up a working group 64 00:04:03,719 --> 00:04:07,439 with, among others, Guy Standing and Roland Duchâtelet. 65 00:04:07,439 --> 00:04:09,439 We still know Duchâtelet from Vivant 66 00:04:09,439 --> 00:04:13,079 but today he is primarily known as the owner of several football teams. 67 00:04:13,079 --> 00:04:15,479 Francine Mestrum is one of the rare 68 00:04:15,479 --> 00:04:17,678 but very vocal opponents. 69 00:04:18,947 --> 00:04:23,079 Psychiatrist Dirk de Wachter and Sarah van Liefferinghe of the Pirate Party 70 00:04:23,079 --> 00:04:26,759 see the advantages for people's well-being. 71 00:04:26,759 --> 00:04:28,759 We see how many people are stuck 72 00:04:28,759 --> 00:04:34,159 in the rat race of working more, working harder, working longer, 73 00:04:34,159 --> 00:04:39,000 so we can consume more and our economy can grow. 74 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:42,599 But we feel, and so do a lot of people, that this model frustrates us, 75 00:04:42,599 --> 00:04:45,079 it exhausts us and makes us emotionally empty. 76 00:04:45,079 --> 00:04:48,265 A lot of people can't handle the work, 77 00:04:48,265 --> 00:04:50,531 consider it too burdening, 78 00:04:50,531 --> 00:04:56,439 come to me and say: "Doctor, help me, I can't go on" 79 00:04:56,439 --> 00:05:01,919 and "helping", as a doctor, means declaring them "unfit for work". 80 00:05:01,919 --> 00:05:04,359 And so, in the last ten years the number of people 81 00:05:04,359 --> 00:05:06,519 who became chronically unfit for work has risen with 50%, 82 00:05:08,510 --> 00:05:11,609 we have to start thinking about that on a fundamental level 83 00:05:11,609 --> 00:05:15,359 and basic income is one of those fundamental things 84 00:05:15,359 --> 00:05:19,000 that can provide a beginning for that. 85 00:05:19,420 --> 00:05:23,800 The time for basic income is now. 86 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:27,026 And the reason is that with globalisation, that took off in the 1980s, 87 00:05:30,082 --> 00:05:35,040 what has actually been happening is, the world's labor supply, 88 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:41,660 the number of people exposed to a global labor market, has quadrupled. 89 00:05:41,700 --> 00:05:46,013 So what has been happening in the last 30 years 90 00:05:46,013 --> 00:05:49,746 is a downward pressure on our real wages. 91 00:05:54,516 --> 00:05:56,559 The British economist Guy Standing 92 00:05:56,559 --> 00:06:00,119 led the largest experiment with a basic income ever. 93 00:06:00,119 --> 00:06:06,120 In India 20,000 people received a real basic income for two years. 94 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:10,720 Soon, he'll share with the world those incredible results. 95 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:12,679 Recently he was a guest in Brussels, 96 00:06:12,679 --> 00:06:15,800 on invitation of former EU commissioner 97 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:19,000 of employment and social affairs, Laszlo Andor. 98 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:22,680 Thank you very much. 99 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:28,060 The worst thing would be to go back to the old norm. 100 00:06:28,060 --> 00:06:32,480 Professor Standing used to work at the International Labour Organisation. 101 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:34,200 Now he talks in his books 102 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:37,160 about the growing underclass in our society 103 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:40,440 and what he, with a neologism, calls the precariat. 104 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:43,073 The precariat consists 105 00:06:43,073 --> 00:06:47,256 of millions and millions of people 106 00:06:47,256 --> 00:06:50,770 exposed to insecure labor. 107 00:06:50,770 --> 00:06:52,900 Without knowing where they're going. 108 00:06:52,900 --> 00:06:56,280 They have no sense of occupational career. 109 00:06:56,280 --> 00:07:00,130 It's a trend in which we've been stuck since the 80s, with Thatcher and Reagan, 110 00:07:00,130 --> 00:07:03,639 and after 30 years of "greed is good" 111 00:07:03,639 --> 00:07:05,500 it's time for something else. 112 00:07:05,500 --> 00:07:08,000 Other models, now! 113 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:13,240 Invest in people, not in weapons! Michel, U-turn or war! 114 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:15,243 Shut up and work! 115 00:07:15,243 --> 00:07:17,246 116 00:07:17,246 --> 00:07:19,270 No cuts to our future! 117 00:07:19,270 --> 00:07:22,280 Harder? Faster? Longer? Like Machines? 118 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:28,000 And this uncertainly is extremely stressful. 119 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:32,610 So people in the precariat are living, mostly, 120 00:07:32,610 --> 00:07:36,000 on the edge of unsustainable debt. 121 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:40,160 One accident, and they're out in the streets. 122 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:45,360 According to the countries, we are now 2 or 3 times richer 123 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:49,320 per capita than in the golden 60s, 124 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:52,690 and we're still here with an enormous amount of unemployment. 125 00:07:52,690 --> 00:07:57,280 People who fear for their job, and we're 2 to 3 times richer. 126 00:07:57,290 --> 00:08:00,239 Aren't we all acting completely foolishly? 127 00:08:00,239 --> 00:08:03,879 Poverty is solved with income, 128 00:08:03,879 --> 00:08:07,770 so people need to receive benefits that are high enough, 129 00:08:07,770 --> 00:08:09,980 which is not happening today. 130 00:08:09,980 --> 00:08:14,020 The proponents of a basic income are completely right in that regard, 131 00:08:14,020 --> 00:08:16,939 poor people need an income 132 00:08:16,939 --> 00:08:19,000 to live in dignity. 133 00:08:21,479 --> 00:08:24,280 To see with our own eyes what a basic income 134 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:28,399 does to people in poverty, we traveled to Namibia, 135 00:08:28,399 --> 00:08:30,479 a country of great contrasts. 136 00:08:30,479 --> 00:08:33,600 The gigantic profits from diamond exports 137 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,840 stand in shrill contrast with the dangerous situation 138 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:38,950 where people live in poverty. 139 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:43,520 Otjivero is a poor settlement in the desert 140 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:45,799 where people had nothing at all. 141 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:51,530 We were dirt poor, here in Otjivero. 142 00:08:51,530 --> 00:08:53,530 But thanks to the basic income 143 00:08:53,530 --> 00:08:56,030 we had something to eat and somewhere to sleep. 144 00:08:56,940 --> 00:09:01,159 Otjivero was chosen in 2009 for an experiment 145 00:09:01,159 --> 00:09:06,079 where its 930 residents received 100 Namibian dollars each month 146 00:09:06,079 --> 00:09:08,879 or about 7 euros per person. 147 00:09:08,879 --> 00:09:11,560 Unconditionally, people were free to decide 148 00:09:11,560 --> 00:09:14,060 what they would do with that money. 149 00:09:14,060 --> 00:09:20,473 It was mostly plastic and carton box-houses, 150 00:09:20,473 --> 00:09:22,736 in which people lived. 151 00:09:22,736 --> 00:09:26,400 And the grant proved 152 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:32,000 that after six months, a year after the implementation, 153 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:37,360 - you could see how the face of Otjivero changed. 154 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:42,480 The Namibian council of churches, a few labor unions and NGO's 155 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:45,759 provided the funds for this extraordinary project. 156 00:09:45,759 --> 00:09:49,400 Priest Wilfred Diergaart and bishop Zephania Kameeta 157 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:54,129 chose Otjivero as the ideal settlement for this experiment. 158 00:09:54,129 --> 00:09:56,239 This piece of no man's land in the desert 159 00:09:56,239 --> 00:09:58,675 is populated by various ethnic groups. 160 00:09:59,841 --> 00:10:02,079 Scientists Claudia and Dirk Haarmann 161 00:10:02,079 --> 00:10:04,519 have performed intensive research on location 162 00:10:04,519 --> 00:10:07,399 and in cooperation with the University of Cape Town 163 00:10:07,399 --> 00:10:09,000 they analyzed the results. 164 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:11,513 When we started with the pilot project, we thought 165 00:10:11,513 --> 00:10:14,036 that 100 Namibian dollars is not a lot of money, 166 00:10:14,036 --> 00:10:17,800 it will just make the difference in terms of food security 167 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:23,000 and it will just help people to cope with their daily lives in poverty. 168 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:26,380 But we were actually very surprised by the results: 169 00:10:26,380 --> 00:10:32,160 malnourishment went down from 42 to 10 percent. 170 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:34,160 People had enough food to eat. 171 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:38,280 But the amazing thing is that people really started to become active 172 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:40,560 and took their lives into their own hands. 173 00:10:40,560 --> 00:10:44,300 And there actually was a real empowerment process within the village. 174 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,400 Thanks to the basic income, my business flourished. 175 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:52,800 I'm a carpenter, I make beds and such. 176 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:58,240 We thought about how we could improve our lives. 177 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:04,040 Marie-Rose set up as a hairdresser. She also sells bread and biscuits. 178 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:07,560 It's my job. 179 00:11:07,560 --> 00:11:09,440 I get money from here. 180 00:11:10,771 --> 00:11:14,000 It's called purchasing power: as soon as you give people money, 181 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:16,000 they can also spend it. 182 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:21,760 The greatest success I have seen there, 183 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,640 was the establishment of a bakery 184 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:27,640 from the proceeds of this grant. 185 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:29,240 My name is Frida. 186 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:34,440 That bakery has now reached the level of self-sustainability. 187 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:39,840 If you give a person money, why should they become lazy? 188 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:43,880 Take me, I'm not lazy, I have been given hope again, 189 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:48,000 and I'm busy every day. 190 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:53,440 If you give someone money, they can decide for themselves what to do with it. 191 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:57,760 The government only gave us corn flour 192 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:00,440 but not everyone eats porridge. 193 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:03,600 How do you know that everybody likes to eat corn flour? 194 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:06,160 Not everyone eats it. 195 00:12:07,250 --> 00:12:11,280 You give them money and they decide what they want to buy. 196 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:16,520 And that is the way an adult learns about life. 197 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:21,120 It is an adult policy, rather than a paternalistic policy. 198 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:25,919 But why do we need a basic income in Belgium 199 00:12:25,919 --> 00:12:29,240 when we already have such an extensive benefits system? 200 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:34,480 Well, you only get money unconditionally if you're the king. 201 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:37,599 Belgium does have a fine social safety net, 202 00:12:37,599 --> 00:12:41,039 but it's also terribly complex. 203 00:12:41,039 --> 00:12:44,440 If people start working part-time, which is sometimes possible, 204 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:47,559 they have less income than their disability benefits. 205 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:50,399 So they are punished for it. 206 00:12:50,399 --> 00:12:52,800 That is exceptionally counterproductive. 207 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:56,759 It makes you dependent, that also takes away your motivation. 208 00:12:56,759 --> 00:13:00,079 You earn less with a low paying job 209 00:13:00,079 --> 00:13:02,159 than you would get on benefits. 210 00:13:02,159 --> 00:13:05,119 So one of the main arguments in favour of basic income 211 00:13:05,119 --> 00:13:07,320 in the Belgian or European context 212 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:10,759 is that the current system creates a sort of poverty trap, 213 00:13:10,759 --> 00:13:15,349 an unemployment trap, because it's conditional, 214 00:13:15,349 --> 00:13:17,629 because those benefits are conditional. 215 00:13:17,629 --> 00:13:20,759 We have gotten to the point where we are paying people 216 00:13:20,759 --> 00:13:25,280 to monitor what an unemployed person is doing, and that's insane. 217 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:31,200 And with a basic income grant, you don't need a huge administration. 218 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:34,720 The redistribution of money currently requires us to spend a lot of money 219 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:38,960 on people who are doing something that is frankly pointless. 220 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:41,160 Or people who are replaceable this way. 221 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:43,919 So we can make that redistribution a lot more efficient 222 00:13:43,919 --> 00:13:46,600 by just giving a basic income. 223 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:50,200 And the people themselves, they do not need to cheat. 224 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:52,880 Also, there's no way you can cheat. 225 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:04,200 If no one can commit fraud to get a basic income, 226 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:07,799 no one needs to be checked. 227 00:14:07,799 --> 00:14:09,640 One of the foremost parts 228 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:13,119 in our benefits system becomes obsolete this way. 229 00:14:14,439 --> 00:14:17,500 Who was it that was looking for more ways to cut spending? 230 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:27,719 Basic income is an idea that refuses to die. 231 00:14:27,719 --> 00:14:31,719 It started with Thomas Paine in 1795. 232 00:14:31,719 --> 00:14:34,119 But also in 1848 in Brussels 233 00:14:34,119 --> 00:14:38,759 Belgian Liberal Joseph Charlier wrote about it in this house. 234 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:46,600 That proposal is really a proposal 235 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:48,840 of a really unconditional basic income. 236 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:51,000 Modest, but really unconditional. 237 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:56,470 Only the person whose basic necessities are met 238 00:14:56,470 --> 00:14:58,280 is independent. 239 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:04,990 Currently, those who depend on others for their absolute needs are slaves. 240 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:12,000 Perhaps one last excerpt that also expresses the ambition well. 241 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:19,120 The answer to the social problem is as simple as it is far-reaching. 242 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:23,439 That a simple idea can have immense consequences, 243 00:15:23,439 --> 00:15:26,249 also proves this Belgian phenomenon. 244 00:15:26,249 --> 00:15:27,759 No thank you. 245 00:15:27,759 --> 00:15:30,759 Just kidding, gracias! Grazie! 246 00:15:30,759 --> 00:15:35,720 Yes, with 2000 euros a month you don't need to worry for the rest of your life. 247 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:37,920 Win For Life, don't worry. 248 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:41,480 I scratched that lottery ticket in 2010 249 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:45,079 and it still didn't really sink in. 250 00:15:45,079 --> 00:15:49,000 But when you stick that ticket in the machine, 251 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:52,320 and that jingle plays, you're like 252 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:54,000 "it really is real." 253 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:55,799 And then she said "oh, you're lucky, 254 00:15:55,799 --> 00:15:58,840 because it's always paid out on the first of the month, 255 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:03,359 so starting the day after tomorrow, every month 2000 euros 256 00:16:03,359 --> 00:16:05,240 will be deposited into your account. 257 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:06,679 For the rest of your life. 258 00:16:06,679 --> 00:16:09,159 We'll call our winner Anja. 259 00:16:09,159 --> 00:16:11,159 She is worried about the stigma 260 00:16:11,159 --> 00:16:13,880 that she'd become lazy for the rest of her life. 261 00:16:15,370 --> 00:16:18,989 Actually I'm working more than I used to, 262 00:16:18,989 --> 00:16:20,600 since I got the Win For Life. 263 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:22,759 But also because I like doing it. 264 00:16:22,759 --> 00:16:27,920 What I'm doing as an entrepreneur, that doesn't feel like working to me, 265 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:32,359 because I like doing it, but if I hadn't had that Win For Life, 266 00:16:32,359 --> 00:16:36,950 I never would've had the chance to do what I like doing. 267 00:16:36,950 --> 00:16:38,749 That's just wonderful. 268 00:16:38,749 --> 00:16:40,460 That woman does what she likes. 269 00:16:40,460 --> 00:16:43,080 She is free, that's really the whole point. 270 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:45,959 A basic income is a freedom income 271 00:16:45,959 --> 00:16:49,400 and people don't realise that yet. 272 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,979 And when you see the collective happiness that is being wasted, 273 00:16:52,979 --> 00:16:57,320 because people refuse to seriously think about it, that's huge. 274 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:02,840 That full time job is no longer putting me under pressure either, 275 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:05,239 like it was before. 276 00:17:05,239 --> 00:17:08,519 I think that for a lot of people it's like: "I have to keep this job, 277 00:17:08,519 --> 00:17:11,239 because it's all that I have and it's something to hold on to" 278 00:17:11,239 --> 00:17:15,439 and in my case it's: "Well, if I Iose that job, it's not a disaster." 279 00:17:15,439 --> 00:17:18,680 Something I've concluded as an entrepreneur is 280 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:21,159 people who like doing things 281 00:17:21,159 --> 00:17:25,358 do it really well and they are much more productive than people 282 00:17:25,358 --> 00:17:27,920 who are working because they have to. 283 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:33,749 That is also the function of a basic income, 284 00:17:33,749 --> 00:17:37,080 in terms of people's human capital. 285 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:42,240 I would never have started my own business if I hadn't had that Win For Life, 286 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:47,479 for fear of failure or becoming bankrupt. 287 00:17:47,479 --> 00:17:51,199 Anja also had more worries before she won her Win For Life. 288 00:17:51,199 --> 00:17:54,159 Damn, my hair dryer broke down. 289 00:17:54,159 --> 00:17:59,599 For example, about the safety of the ramshackle house she lived in 290 00:17:59,599 --> 00:18:02,280 and she couldn't count on financial help from home 291 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:05,280 to buy a proper house. 292 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:10,960 I never would've dreamed we could live in such a beautiful house. 293 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,660 But that was not a problem, because suddenly the bank was glad to see us, 294 00:18:14,660 --> 00:18:18,360 with 2000 euros extra income. 295 00:18:18,360 --> 00:18:22,360 So in the case of Win For Life it is "For Life". 296 00:18:22,360 --> 00:18:27,800 But the big problem there is that there is a huge difference 297 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:33,639 between 10, 100, 1000 people in 11 million. 298 00:18:33,639 --> 00:18:36,960 But what happens in the heads of those 11 million Belgians 299 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:40,099 when we randomly offer a few people 300 00:18:40,099 --> 00:18:43,199 an unconditional chance at 2000 euros a month? 301 00:18:43,199 --> 00:18:45,000 Would they stop working? 302 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,880 2000 is a nice amount. 303 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:55,120 I wouldn't directly stop working, but my partner might. 304 00:18:55,120 --> 00:18:59,640 You could go on a short vacation more often. 305 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:02,280 That would make life more pleasant and easier. 306 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:04,280 Perhaps a renovation? 307 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:08,320 I'd also save, I wouldn't immediately spend it on fancy things. 308 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,080 For the rest of your life you wouldn't have to work for somebody else. 309 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:15,080 I'd open a shop and I'd quit my job. 310 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:18,060 Open a shop or a restaurant. 311 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:23,000 I'll tell you right now that I'd use it for good causes. 312 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:26,520 Small-scale projects from people who want to do something 313 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:28,640 or the less wealthy. 314 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:32,280 Orphans, I pity them a lot as well. 315 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:34,280 Can I scratch now? 316 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:37,520 The reactions here confirm the expectations 317 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:40,599 of the societal effect of a basic income. 318 00:19:40,599 --> 00:19:42,679 It makes people think about their free time, 319 00:19:42,679 --> 00:19:45,650 it makes people more independent and nobody thinks of being lazy. 320 00:19:45,650 --> 00:19:47,080 Alas. 321 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:49,440 Too bad. 322 00:19:50,489 --> 00:19:52,280 But what do they think about the implementation 323 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:56,000 of a basic income for each Belgian? 324 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:59,640 That is of course not a bad idea, but it's not feasible. 325 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:01,360 It's not feasible. 326 00:20:01,360 --> 00:20:03,400 Freedom is a sensitive matter to me. 327 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,760 It's a fantastic system, if it's for everyone. 328 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:10,560 If everyone can decide what to do with it, 329 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:12,320 I'll sign up right now, immediately. 330 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:15,640 If everyone is doing well, then there's also no misery. 331 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:20,840 Where will they get the money in the first place, is what I'm thinking. 332 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:25,600 I won't scratch for too long, because I still have potatoes to cook. 333 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:32,719 If there is a country where there is enough money for a basic income, 334 00:20:32,719 --> 00:20:34,719 it's Switzerland. 335 00:20:34,719 --> 00:20:38,480 The citizens of the country of banks will vote in 2016 336 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:41,720 on a basic income for every Swiss. 337 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:43,519 A group of a few artists 338 00:20:43,519 --> 00:20:46,640 is calling itself "Generation basic income". 339 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:49,640 They collected more than 100,000 signatures 340 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:52,359 and compelled their government to a referendum 341 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:55,160 through the Swiss system of direct democracy. 342 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:58,160 If people vote yes, 343 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:01,499 the Swiss government will be constitutionally obligated 344 00:21:01,499 --> 00:21:04,159 to implement the system, no matter what. 345 00:21:04,159 --> 00:21:07,520 With that, Switzerland is internationally 346 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:11,600 the furthest along with a possible utopia. 347 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:16,029 Daniel Häni is an entrepreneur, 348 00:21:16,029 --> 00:21:18,719 and the man behind "Unternehmen mitte" in Basel, 349 00:21:18,719 --> 00:21:21,439 a coffee bar in a former bank building 350 00:21:21,439 --> 00:21:25,000 where everyone is welcome, without having to consume anything. 351 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:29,600 The referendum is a political process. 352 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:35,880 People ask themselves questions 353 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:39,520 and when people ask themselves questions, they think. 354 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:42,640 In that way, awareness starts to exist. 355 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:46,720 The action of the money pile in Bern also fits in that context. 356 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:58,480 The basic income is an idea in a situation 357 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:02,680 where there is plenty of everything. 358 00:22:03,556 --> 00:22:07,000 These are in fact 8 million real Swiss coins. 359 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:11,850 With this stunt, "Generation basic income" drew international attention. 360 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:15,560 You stand in front of that money pile and you ask yourself: 361 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:18,400 "What's still missing, if everything is there?" 362 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:23,439 The Swiss are often said to be neutral. 363 00:22:23,439 --> 00:22:25,120 Enno Schmidt is very clear: 364 00:22:25,120 --> 00:22:28,560 Even in a rich country like Switzerland, a basic income 365 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,000 is possible and necessary. 366 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:39,200 Whether people vote yes or no, is of course very important to us. 367 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:41,200 We want to win. 368 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:44,840 But to understand how a democracy works, you have to say: 369 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:48,280 even if the majority votes against basic income, 370 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:51,880 it tells us where we stand, and that's good. 371 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:58,725 Enno and Co. have a long way to go with their campaign 372 00:22:58,725 --> 00:23:01,614 because the man in the street still has many doubts. 373 00:23:01,614 --> 00:23:07,360 I really don't know yet, you have to weigh up these things. 374 00:23:07,360 --> 00:23:10,320 I haven't thought enough about it yet. 375 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:16,280 I can't say if I find it good or bad. 376 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:18,040 I really don't know yet. 377 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:22,600 With basic income a discussion gets started 378 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:27,400 about what you really want to do. 379 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:32,520 I'd take the time to ask myself 380 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:37,200 if what I'm doing now is what I really want to do. 381 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,200 It's a development. 382 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:43,720 This is what we're doing now as a part of history. 383 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:48,560 It's necessary that a lot of people concern themselves with basic income 384 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:52,880 and develop the ability necessary for that. 385 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,640 It shows when you think about the matter. 386 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,720 A lot of people can't think for themselves. 387 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,640 They give in to an argument "and that's that". 388 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:06,560 So they have to develop independence, 389 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,960 just like other powers they don't have yet. 390 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:12,640 Then you're already close to a basic income. 391 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:18,000 Alright, dear Swiss, but you're not that special. 392 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,839 In Europe, citizens can submit an initiative as well. 393 00:24:20,839 --> 00:24:23,039 The European citizen's initiative 394 00:24:23,039 --> 00:24:26,880 is an initiative from the European Commission. 395 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:30,399 Christina Lambrecht of the Belgian movement for basic income 396 00:24:30,399 --> 00:24:32,480 explains how it works. 397 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:36,559 We have written up a text regarding basic income. 398 00:24:36,559 --> 00:24:38,760 We submitted it to the Commission, 399 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:41,210 and they said "Okay, you can go for it." 400 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:45,800 First of all, we have to surpass a minimum threshold of 7 countries. 401 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,273 15 countries have already joined the campaign, 402 00:24:48,273 --> 00:24:50,426 and are getting ready to collect signatures. 403 00:24:50,426 --> 00:24:54,599 So in Belgium we had to reach 16,500 signatures. 404 00:24:54,599 --> 00:24:57,160 We reached 19,500. 405 00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,519 When I reached the ministry, 406 00:24:59,519 --> 00:25:02,719 they said to me, very friendly, mind you, 407 00:25:02,719 --> 00:25:05,689 dear madam, we can't do anything with that at the moment, 408 00:25:05,689 --> 00:25:08,760 at this moment everyone is in election mode, 409 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,960 and the current minister of home affairs, 410 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:15,719 I won't mention her name, that's not very friendly, 411 00:25:15,719 --> 00:25:18,399 she's going to file that in a cabinet 412 00:25:18,399 --> 00:25:20,320 and no one's going to look at it anymore. 413 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:25,359 So in my home I have 19,500 signatures of all those Belgians, 414 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,759 from north and south who supported our initiative 415 00:25:28,759 --> 00:25:32,119 and frankly haven't been recognized to say 416 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:36,719 "Look, we want the European Commission to put that idea on the table." 417 00:25:38,139 --> 00:25:40,070 Ok, let's go back to Switzerland. 418 00:25:40,070 --> 00:25:42,600 Ironically, the country that isn't a member of the EU 419 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:46,549 and where a national citizen's initiative is binding. 420 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,680 Tumasch is a biological farmer 421 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,560 in the beautiful mountains of Lower Engadin. 422 00:26:07,250 --> 00:26:12,560 What would happen, if an unconditional basic income was implemented? 423 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:14,760 What do you think about it? 424 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:20,240 I would get a freedom I do not currently have. 425 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:25,680 The basic income would be a sort of subsisdy. 426 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:32,800 But I would still keep working. And it has more advantages. 427 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,880 Like what? - It's the only solution 428 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:41,120 for our disrupted relations... 429 00:26:41,120 --> 00:26:47,400 ...or rather our disrupted financial system. 430 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:53,760 That's really a social problem that needs a solution. 431 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:59,440 And right now there is no better idea than basic income. 432 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,000 In Switzerland the idea is ripening, 433 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:04,679 but how are we doing? 434 00:27:04,679 --> 00:27:08,119 We're willing to dream about a better future, 435 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:09,880 but our daily way of life 436 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,320 is still controlled by entrenched ideas. 437 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:14,919 The concept of a work week, 438 00:27:14,919 --> 00:27:16,839 that's an obsolete concept. 439 00:27:16,839 --> 00:27:20,000 The concept of a retirement pension at a certain age, 440 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,240 that's actually also an obsolete concept. 441 00:27:23,039 --> 00:27:26,719 En then there's the robots, those are only getting better at their work 442 00:27:26,719 --> 00:27:28,879 and they don't get burnouts. 443 00:27:28,879 --> 00:27:31,679 Robots are already taking over a large part of our work 444 00:27:31,679 --> 00:27:35,439 and in the future that will increase by another 47%. 445 00:27:37,129 --> 00:27:40,549 We can actually afford to hand out money to everyone 446 00:27:40,549 --> 00:27:43,359 and those who want to work get some more money 447 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:45,069 and those who don't want to work 448 00:27:45,069 --> 00:27:47,480 they don't work and do what they want. 449 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,240 In principle, society is rich enough to do that. 450 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,359 With a basic income really everyone 451 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,000 in the history of mankind 452 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,640 gets the choice about the kind of work they want to do. 453 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:04,000 Finally the flexible labor market that people want so badly. 454 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:11,200 "Labor market" is actually an ugly word; people are not merchandise. 455 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:16,280 But with a basic income it will finally become a real market. 456 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:20,880 Then you can say yes or no to a job. So you can also say no. 457 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,080 With a basic income for everyone 458 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:28,630 you radically oppose the ruling status quo. 459 00:28:28,630 --> 00:28:32,360 Freedom must be the most important thing, those who want to work can do that 460 00:28:32,360 --> 00:28:34,560 and so can those who don't. 461 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:36,439 Power to the people. 462 00:28:36,439 --> 00:28:38,420 Who could be opposed to that? 463 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:46,920 If people have a choice, they are empowered to make their own decisions, 464 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:50,760 they are empowered to become responsible, democratic citizens. 465 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:56,840 This is not always in business' interest or in every politicians' interest. 466 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,799 Basic income will give employees the possibility 467 00:29:00,799 --> 00:29:03,480 to say no to unattractive jobs. 468 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,720 At a recent debate about basic income 469 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:08,640 this aspect quickly becomes the topic. 470 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:12,439 The basic income is a floor, a base, 471 00:29:12,439 --> 00:29:14,800 on which people can build a life. 472 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,920 Not a net in which people remain trapped. 473 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,760 Well, when you think about it a bit, 474 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,879 it turns out it's not just something that's fair, 475 00:29:23,879 --> 00:29:26,220 but also better for the economy 476 00:29:26,220 --> 00:29:28,559 and better for the health of our society. 477 00:29:28,559 --> 00:29:32,289 I mentioned just now, and I think we fully agree, 478 00:29:32,289 --> 00:29:35,439 our labor market is changing greatly. 479 00:29:35,439 --> 00:29:40,640 But paying a basic income for that is nonsense! 480 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,799 Francine Mestrum continues to oppose the basic income 481 00:29:43,799 --> 00:29:47,000 because she worries about the liberal thinking behind it 482 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:51,520 and possible deterioration of current social protection. 483 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,600 There are thousands of people waiting, 484 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,520 who will take any job. 485 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:02,239 So, not a chance that employers will say 486 00:30:02,239 --> 00:30:03,959 "We'll still pay you just as much" 487 00:30:03,959 --> 00:30:07,879 "Oh, you don't want to do that work anymore, I will pay you some more" 488 00:30:07,879 --> 00:30:10,879 That chance is zero. 489 00:30:10,879 --> 00:30:12,599 But what is something that could happen? 490 00:30:12,599 --> 00:30:17,439 What could happen, well, what my organisation is working on 491 00:30:17,439 --> 00:30:19,959 and what we try to defend 492 00:30:19,959 --> 00:30:22,860 is a reform of the social protection system. 493 00:30:22,860 --> 00:30:26,029 We have worked for a 100 years 494 00:30:26,029 --> 00:30:30,480 on a system of social protection with rights. 495 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:37,719 And today it's not working well enough yet. 496 00:30:37,719 --> 00:30:41,000 So we need to improve it, 497 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,599 but we can't throw it overboard, 498 00:30:43,599 --> 00:30:45,480 we don't have that right. 499 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:49,400 I don't think it's useful to turn the knobs 500 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,270 and increase child benefits a bit for the first one, 501 00:30:52,270 --> 00:30:54,520 decrease a bit for the second one, and... 502 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,629 It no longer works, we must dare to rethink it radically. 503 00:30:58,079 --> 00:31:01,840 Young people are more prone to question existing systems 504 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:05,379 and we hear and see that at this debate. 505 00:31:05,379 --> 00:31:08,000 Yes, just like most people who came to listen, 506 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,599 I have heard good arguments for and against. 507 00:31:11,599 --> 00:31:15,240 Yes, a friend of mine introduced it a year or two ago 508 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,390 and I was immediately opposed. 509 00:31:17,390 --> 00:31:20,680 Because I thought, that is such a leftist utopia, 510 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,560 no realistic person can be in favor of that. 511 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,159 But in the meantime I've read so much about it 512 00:31:26,159 --> 00:31:27,666 and I've changed my mind. 513 00:31:27,666 --> 00:31:30,680 I see a young generation of people 514 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,379 and in the coming years, this young generation 515 00:31:33,379 --> 00:31:34,840 will have to raise its voice. 516 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:38,000 A young generation of people who think completely differently 517 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:40,560 about work, about society. 518 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,080 Take me as an example: I am unemployed, 519 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,080 I'm educated, I'm unemployed. 520 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:46,599 Diploma, still unemployed. 521 00:31:46,599 --> 00:31:49,199 Started a degree, completed it, still unemployed. 522 00:31:49,199 --> 00:31:51,990 Completed paid training, still unemployed. 523 00:31:51,990 --> 00:31:54,000 If someone were in my place, they would say 524 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,919 Don't do it, just go to sleep. 525 00:31:56,919 --> 00:32:00,560 Young people don't think like the previous generation, 526 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:04,680 For them the world is something new, they're discovering it. 527 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,080 I think young people 528 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,159 are far more likely to assume the existence of prosperity. 529 00:32:10,159 --> 00:32:13,159 I think it's good that people start thinking 530 00:32:13,159 --> 00:32:16,680 about the social rights of a human 531 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,400 and these days people mostly point towards the duties. 532 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,830 These days people are mostly thinking about activating, activating, 533 00:32:22,830 --> 00:32:25,050 but yes, indeed, the duty to contribute, 534 00:32:25,050 --> 00:32:27,240 but you're also entitled to get something. 535 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,159 Basic income underscores that right and creates happiness. 536 00:32:30,159 --> 00:32:34,159 Then I want to ask you what you're going to do with your basic income system 537 00:32:34,159 --> 00:32:38,169 when someone 538 00:32:38,169 --> 00:32:42,239 is feeling down, 539 00:32:42,239 --> 00:32:46,280 say, he goes gambling one night, and he loses everything. 540 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:50,190 His money is gone, what do you tell him? 541 00:32:50,190 --> 00:32:53,759 "You've had your chance. Too bad."? 542 00:32:53,759 --> 00:32:56,040 Will he die in the gutter, or what? 543 00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,186 A universal scheme 544 00:32:58,186 --> 00:33:02,002 means, I know you're receiving it, and you know I'm receiving it. 545 00:33:02,002 --> 00:33:04,520 It means, I can say to you: 546 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:08,880 You've got a basic income, try make something out of it. 547 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:10,880 And you can say the same to me. 548 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:16,560 When you talk to the people in Otjivero, they will tell you: 549 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:20,039 We feel like one family. 550 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:27,480 They told us before that no one was caring for anyone. 551 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:33,146 Even if there was a fight at a house close to you, 552 00:33:33,146 --> 00:33:36,112 you would not go and enquire. 553 00:33:36,112 --> 00:33:41,200 But now we have grown into one family. 554 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:50,519 So basic income enhances the community feeling. 555 00:33:50,519 --> 00:33:52,280 But what about inflation? 556 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:53,960 As healthy, consuming Belgians, 557 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,000 wouldn't we want to know if our bread 558 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:59,000 will suddenly become three times as expensive? 559 00:33:59,759 --> 00:34:05,160 It actually has a potentially lowering effect on prices. 560 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:10,159 If you provide a basic income, and if that leads to more demand 561 00:34:10,159 --> 00:34:15,600 for local food or local services, guess what happens? 562 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:19,359 They materialise, because people have greater incentive 563 00:34:19,359 --> 00:34:22,639 to increase the supply of those items. 564 00:34:22,639 --> 00:34:29,560 That money circulates, and in fact improves the economy of the country 565 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:34,920 and, for that matter, the economy of the so called rural areas. 566 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:40,280 So you actually help strengthen the local economy, improve job creation, 567 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:44,280 and those tend to be import-substituting. 568 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,360 The money will not disappear, 569 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:52,106 like diamonds which have been exported 570 00:34:52,106 --> 00:34:55,152 out of the country. It's here. 571 00:34:55,152 --> 00:34:58,080 It leads to more money being generated, 572 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:02,200 because production goes up, and tax income goes up, etc. 573 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,966 So you can actually find 574 00:35:04,966 --> 00:35:08,282 that using a basic income has a growth potential. 575 00:35:08,282 --> 00:35:11,160 I don't think we need any more pilots 576 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:14,320 to prove what can be done with that. 577 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,516 Otjivero is basically like a window 578 00:35:17,516 --> 00:35:20,772 how Namibia could develop what could be done. 579 00:35:20,772 --> 00:35:25,200 Yes, Namibia can be that example. 580 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:30,400 If the leaders just take the courage and the political will, 581 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,640 Namibia can become that country in the world. 582 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:38,640 Suddenly, people are saying: wow, actually for many years we thought 583 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:43,200 that it would be impossible to have a basic income in... Africa?! 584 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,260 Our coalition has made the calculations. 585 00:35:46,260 --> 00:35:50,040 And we have found that it is feasible 586 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:52,680 to implement a b.i.g. [Basic Income Grant] nationally. 587 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,526 And for Belgium? 588 00:36:14,526 --> 00:36:16,822 Is it affordable in Belgium? 589 00:36:16,822 --> 00:36:20,510 It's not affordable. 590 00:36:20,510 --> 00:36:23,519 Bullshit, there is enough prosperity in this world. 591 00:36:23,519 --> 00:36:26,640 We all know, nowadays that the 85 richest people on this planet 592 00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:29,719 own as much as the 3.5 billion poorest. 593 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,509 With a basic income, you can scrap a number of budget items 594 00:36:32,509 --> 00:36:34,199 from your social protection. 595 00:36:34,199 --> 00:36:36,800 Income support, for example, disappears. 596 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,329 I've calculated it, there's about 597 00:36:39,329 --> 00:36:42,480 12 to 13 billion you can scrap. 598 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:46,640 12 to 13 billion, that's not enough. 599 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:50,719 And I challenge all proponents of basic income 600 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:52,799 to come with a detailed, 601 00:36:52,799 --> 00:36:57,360 well-founded calculation for basic income. 602 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:01,079 Very well, miss Mestrum, these are Pierre Catelin, 603 00:37:01,079 --> 00:37:03,670 Ismaël Daoud and Axelle De Brandt. 604 00:37:03,670 --> 00:37:06,600 Axelle and Pierre are therapists and are working on their book 605 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:10,359 about the model 'revenue de base XXL'. 606 00:37:10,359 --> 00:37:14,119 Ismaël is an engineer and worked in his spare time for 6 months 607 00:37:14,119 --> 00:37:15,439 on a calculation model. 608 00:37:15,439 --> 00:37:20,000 In his spare time, because for now we don't have a basic income yet 609 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,000 to be free and innovative citizens. 610 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:29,000 Pierre and Axelle's model for basic income is very generous 611 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,800 so my first reaction was like, it's not feasible. 612 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:39,310 But then, I was curious and tried to calculate. 613 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:47,320 If basic income is adopted, it will happen here. 614 00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:53,200 Our MPs will have less power if they vote for this, it takes courage. 615 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:04,480 He we are in the chamber of the federal parliament of Belgium. 616 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:08,760 Recently they voted for the 6th reform of the State, 617 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,590 which transfers competences 618 00:38:11,590 --> 00:38:14,440 from the federal level towards regions and communities. 619 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:16,560 But we forgot about the citizens. 620 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:22,200 We had to organise a competence switch from public administrators to the citizens 621 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:26,320 therefore we need a 7th reform of the State that does just that. 622 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:31,920 In my job 623 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:35,600 I help people reorganise their lives. 624 00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:41,066 And what people often tell me is, 625 00:38:41,066 --> 00:38:43,300 they need more money and more time. 626 00:38:43,300 --> 00:38:46,439 It's quantified as follows, 627 00:38:46,439 --> 00:38:49,540 in billions of francs. 628 00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:54,000 We need 187 billion euros to pay a basic income 629 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:58,400 of 1500 Euros to every adult, lifelong, 630 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:00,319 and also 200 euros to each child 631 00:39:00,319 --> 00:39:05,700 plus all personal insurances, paid by the government. 632 00:39:05,700 --> 00:39:09,399 We have recalculated it all, and figures look correct. 633 00:39:09,399 --> 00:39:12,000 But isn't all of this, a bit too generous? 634 00:39:13,240 --> 00:39:17,440 If the sums were lower, I'm afraid 635 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:20,520 we would ignore the potential of the system: 636 00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:22,800 getting more freedom. 637 00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:28,160 Firstly there are government expenditures that become superfluous, 638 00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:31,800 because they are replaced. 639 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:37,120 The state won't need to spend 41 billion on pensions anymore 640 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,680 because basic income is itself a sort of pension. 641 00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:43,800 Unemployment benefits would also become redundant 642 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:47,400 because in this system there is no unemployment. 643 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:50,480 Whether you work or not, you get 1500 euros per month. 644 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:53,359 A whole range of things like benefits 645 00:39:53,359 --> 00:39:55,400 and pensions can be replaced, 646 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:58,320 thus saving about 71 billion, 647 00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:02,160 but we still need to find 116.7 billion. 648 00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:05,400 By a sound rationalisation of public administration, 649 00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:10,080 Ishmael finds another 25 billion. 650 00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:15,400 The third part consists of extra revenues from a tax shift. 651 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:20,160 It will focus on those who are now undertaxed. 652 00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:23,760 In Belgium capital is taxed at 6 percent, 653 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:28,440 Labour is taxed at 43 percent, that's a big difference. 654 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:34,280 The idea is to increase taxes on capital, movable or immovable goods. 655 00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:40,200 Then you can reduce taxes on labour. 656 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,840 So you get a more balanced system 657 00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:46,960 where people do not have to protest in the streets, 658 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:50,000 because they feel they have contributed enough. 659 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:54,320 We consider it a noble contribution. 660 00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:57,120 It offers a wide margin in society. 661 00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:59,960 When people now hear the word 'contribution', 662 00:40:59,960 --> 00:41:04,480 they think it's a swindle. That is not the goal. 663 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:08,120 There should be a differentiated VAT system: 664 00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:12,480 higher for luxury goods, lower for basic goods. 665 00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:16,960 But the average VAT should be around 25 percent. 666 00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:20,960 That provides another 16 billion euros. 667 00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:25,200 By an average increase of VAT to 25%, 668 00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:30,160 and other shifts on taxes and charges, we arrive at 95.4 billion. 669 00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:32,480 That brings us to a positive balance. 670 00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:36,519 This model results in a profit of more than 4 billion for the government. 671 00:41:37,519 --> 00:41:40,549 Namibia showed us how purchase power can rise. 672 00:41:40,549 --> 00:41:42,679 But an exact projection of the spending power 673 00:41:42,679 --> 00:41:45,280 isn't possible with this static model. 674 00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:47,000 They also consider, however, 675 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,600 residual earnings and cost of government. 676 00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:53,920 The price of the launch of the basic income is 0 euro, 677 00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:57,520 provided that some public enterprises are privatized. 678 00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:01,250 Dear Pierre, Ishmael and Axelle, are you really sure of this model? 679 00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:03,640 Yes, - Absolutely. 680 00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:05,640 In fact it will generate savings 681 00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:08,600 without deterioration of public services. 682 00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:12,000 Because this way, the system is much simpler. 683 00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:16,200 You actually begins with a clean slate. 684 00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:21,160 There are no poltical a prioris or ideologies. 685 00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,919 Again, why should you do it? 686 00:42:23,919 --> 00:42:27,440 Why should you give basic income to rich people? 687 00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:30,000 Can somebody kindly answer this simple question? 688 00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:34,880 Basic income is for everyone, that's the difference. 689 00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:40,880 Some people do not realise that excluding rich people 690 00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:44,280 is still excluding people. 691 00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:48,960 A basic income excludes no one, it is not a class struggle. 692 00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:50,720 It is about the human. 693 00:42:50,500 --> 00:42:53,000 That problem has been solved as well. 694 00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,990 (Applause) 695 00:42:55,990 --> 00:42:59,360 Politicians are afraid that if you empower people too much, 696 00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:03,840 they stand up and demand things and then they become empowered citizens. 697 00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:06,160 And I think, politicians are afraid of that. 698 00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:09,360 Because in Otjivero you could see this empowerment process. 699 00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:11,656 They people can tell their own stories, 700 00:43:11,656 --> 00:43:14,562 they even demanded the President to come out and say, 701 00:43:14,562 --> 00:43:17,360 if you still have doubts about the basic income grant, 702 00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:20,400 why don't you then come to Otjivero and discuss with us? 703 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:25,320 It is not that it isn't spoken about in politics. 704 00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:31,600 A lot of politicians in Germany, Switzer- land and Canada are talking about it. 705 00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:34,880 In a short term, it will be on the political agenda. 706 00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:37,680 One of the problems with basic income 707 00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:44,720 is that within each party there are both proponents and opponents 708 00:43:44,720 --> 00:43:50,640 and sometimes you find very emotional proponents and opponents 709 00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:53,379 and that in fact makes it difficult to move forward. 710 00:43:53,379 --> 00:43:57,180 Because it is difficult for a party to find enough unity within itself 711 00:43:57,180 --> 00:43:59,280 to effectively promote the idea. 712 00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:01,480 To me, it also proves that it is an idea 713 00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:03,640 of the future and not of the past, 714 00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,720 because this left-right polarisation is an illusion. 715 00:44:06,720 --> 00:44:12,286 It stems from our parliamentary system that dates from the 19th century. 716 00:44:12,286 --> 00:44:17,592 The only Belgian party with basic income in its program 717 00:44:17,592 --> 00:44:20,000 is the Pirate Party. 718 00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:30,920 Basic Income Now, is their message. 719 00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:35,309 There is no discussion about another economic paradigm 720 00:44:35,309 --> 00:44:37,880 or another way to construct the welfare state, 721 00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:40,110 because we're stuck in, 'this is what we have now' 722 00:44:40,110 --> 00:44:41,879 and we don't dare to break away from that, 723 00:44:41,879 --> 00:44:44,280 we must bind our voters to us 724 00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:47,079 and satisfy them and they don't believe in it. 725 00:44:47,079 --> 00:44:52,400 Every new party, especially a party with refreshing and good ideas, 726 00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:57,809 is more dangerous than an idiot talking some bullshit. 727 00:44:57,809 --> 00:45:01,239 We were a very dangerous party in that way 728 00:45:03,366 --> 00:45:04,210 because we certainly had a strong image, 729 00:45:04,210 --> 00:45:06,120 we were well prepared. 730 00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:11,380 Duchatelet came up with a clear proposal for basic income in the late 90s. 731 00:45:11,380 --> 00:45:13,579 with his party Vivant. 732 00:45:13,579 --> 00:45:15,909 We got a lot of votes, by the way. 733 00:45:15,909 --> 00:45:19,840 In 1999 we got 1 in 40 votes. For a party 734 00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:23,850 that barely got any TV coverage, that's a great result. 735 00:45:23,850 --> 00:45:27,000 So after the national elections 736 00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:29,259 they immediately introduced an electoral threshold, 737 00:45:29,259 --> 00:45:32,526 to make sure that next time we wouldn't be successful. 738 00:45:53,176 --> 00:45:57,453 For the benefit of the rich employees must retreat. 739 00:45:57,453 --> 00:46:01,320 It is becoming extremely urgent 740 00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:04,840 that we need a new progressive politics of redistribution 741 00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:07,800 and a new system of income distribution 742 00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:11,480 in which people have the right to basic security 743 00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:14,400 to exist as a human being in modern society. 744 00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:17,120 If basic income is not part 745 00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:19,440 of that progressive strategy, 746 00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:21,136 then I think we are entitled 747 00:46:21,136 --> 00:46:23,587 to be very alarmed about what's happening. 748 00:46:23,587 --> 00:46:28,488 Therefore, it is important that this utopia, this dream, gives people hope 749 00:46:28,490 --> 00:46:31,040 and gives people the message, 750 00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:34,400 it's not wrong to be optimistic and hopeful. 751 00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:37,240 'Be outraged, be committed' 752 00:46:37,240 --> 00:46:40,079 he says, and I completely agree with that. 753 00:46:40,079 --> 00:46:44,640 Think about your world, your existence, your job, your life 754 00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:48,519 and try from there to mean something in the world, 755 00:46:48,519 --> 00:46:52,109 and don't wait until some great leader 756 00:46:52,109 --> 00:46:53,930 says from above, that's the way to act. 757 00:46:53,930 --> 00:46:59,480 If we allow our societies to become more and more unequal, 758 00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:03,920 and more and more prone to insecurity for masses of people, 759 00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:05,920 then it will be scary. 760 00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:34,120 A society with fewer insecure and angry people: 761 00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:37,519 could a basic income really achieve this? 762 00:47:37,519 --> 00:47:40,599 Basic income also poses new questions: 763 00:47:40,599 --> 00:47:43,039 what will happen to migration, 764 00:47:43,039 --> 00:47:45,960 if basic income only exists in Belgium? 765 00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:48,600 Isn't the implementation required at a European level 766 00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:51,519 or even to be studied globally? 767 00:47:51,519 --> 00:47:55,120 Will we only then be talking about a real utopia? 768 00:47:55,120 --> 00:48:03,079 Yes, I will tell you, it's unthinkable not to do it. 769 00:48:03,079 --> 00:48:08,880 Yes, because only 8% of the people are producing everything we need. 770 00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:15,159 And the other 92%, do we need to invent jobs for them 771 00:48:15,159 --> 00:48:18,539 In some administration in order to give them money? 772 00:48:18,539 --> 00:48:20,350 No, just give money to everyone. 773 00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:26,360 People are scared of the Basic Income Grant, 774 00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:32,520 because it does not stop of giving 100 Namibian dollars to poor Namibians. 775 00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:35,200 But it touches many, many questions. 776 00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:39,600 The thing is, that when any new idea, 777 00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:44,160 or any idea that, confronting all problems, comes up, 778 00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:49,000 the biggest challenge for people is to open their minds. 779 00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:26,640 It's my life. It's not my job, it's my life. 780 00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:03,480 Admittedly, something to talk about during upcoming family dinners. 781 00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:07,080 If you are looking for additional arguments, 782 00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:09,759 on our Facebook page you will find more information 783 00:50:09,759 --> 00:50:14,119 about the financing model proposed by Ismaël, Pierre en Axelle. 784 00:50:14,119 --> 00:50:17,320 And for those who still consider basic income a stupid idea... 785 00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:21,779 the right to vote for women was also considered a stupid idea not so long ago. 786 00:50:22,679 --> 00:50:26,879 Wishing you happy holidays 787 00:50:26,879 --> 00:50:29,800 and a new year with only pleasant surprises 788 00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:34,200 I hope to see you back for a new Panorama on Thursday 8th January. 789 00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:36,200 Thank you for watching.