0:00:07.560,0:00:12.600 It has given me a dignified existence. 0:00:12.600,0:00:17.280 I used to depend on my husband. 0:00:17.280,0:00:23.470 But thanks to the basic income,[br]that changed for me. 0:00:23.470,0:00:27.820 If I make beautiful clothes[br]and can sell them, then I feel good. 0:00:27.820,0:00:32.759 Then I also did something for it. 0:00:47.000,0:00:49.600 Good evening, welcome to Panorama. 0:00:49.600,0:00:53.360 Forget everything you thought and think[br]about work and income, 0:00:53.360,0:00:56.150 tonight we are going to wipe[br]the blackboard clean, 0:00:56.150,0:01:00.080 and put another idea on it:[br]the basic income for everyone. 0:01:00.080,0:01:05.399 What if, and we're not joking here, 0:01:05.399,0:01:08.920 what if everyone in our country[br]aged 18 and over received 0:01:08.920,0:01:12.559 1500 euros from the government each month? 0:01:12.559,0:01:15.839 Those who want more can still work[br]on top of that basic income, 0:01:15.839,0:01:19.679 those for whom 1500 euros is enough[br]can do other enjoyable things. 0:01:19.679,0:01:21.719 However, we will scrap all other benefits 0:01:21.719,0:01:25.439 such as income support, pensions,[br]unemployment benefits, etc. 0:01:25.439,0:01:29.240 Everyone gets 1500s euros a month. 0:01:29.240,0:01:31.679 Unconditionally[br]and until the end of your days. 0:01:31.679,0:01:34.650 Madness, I already hear you think. 0:01:34.650,0:01:36.540 Well, you should keep[br]watching then, 0:01:36.540,0:01:39.309 because then you will see[br]that the Swiss are going to have 0:01:39.309,0:01:44.109 a referendum about that basic income[br]and that it already exists in practice. 0:01:44.109,0:01:46.840 Among others, in a village in Namibia. 0:01:46.840,0:01:50.579 Reports by[br]Alina Kneepkens and Jozef Devillé. 0:01:55.899,0:02:01.243 Our country is at a standstill,[br]we break world records on traffic congestion, 0:02:01.243,0:02:04.920 1 in 10 Belgian employees[br]sits at home with a burnout 0:02:04.920,0:02:07.039 and not a single country[br]can beat Belgium 0:02:07.039,0:02:09.719 at taking antidepressants[br]and sleeping pills. 0:02:09.719,0:02:13.359 We work ourselves half to death,[br]but government after government 0:02:13.359,0:02:15.280 we are asked to put some more effort 0:02:15.280,0:02:17.120 because we need to work even harder 0:02:17.120,0:02:19.040 and the government needs to cut spending. 0:02:19.040,0:02:22.089 The government wants at least[br]to meet its budget targets. 0:02:22.089,0:02:24.279 Which has previously resulted in 0:02:24.279,0:02:26.469 the restructuration of the budget. 0:02:26.469,0:02:28.660 And now we must to cut spending before all. 0:02:28.660,0:02:31.489 Flanders has no money and the Federal Government has no money either. 0:02:31.489,0:02:34.119 The needed effort is already great[br]and it will increase. 0:02:34.119,0:02:36.200 That is also the choice we make. 0:02:36.200,0:02:39.680 It is felt that many people[br]can no longer keep up 0:02:39.680,0:02:43.000 and that the middle class[br]is slowly being squeezed dry. 0:02:43.490,0:02:48.140 There is great worry[br]among the Belgian working population. 0:02:49.000,0:02:52.000 We often hear[br]that there is no alternative, 0:02:52.000,0:02:54.000 that we can't do anything[br]but cut spending. 0:02:55.080,0:03:00.620 But it turns out that[br]one big idea for changing how the government provides financial assistance [br] 0:03:01.070,0:03:04.030 may have appeal to some on the left and the right. 0:03:04.560,0:03:09.516 It is a minimum level of government payments,[br]known as guaranteed basic income. 0:03:09.852,0:03:14.480 What would the world be like if everyone[br]had the right to earn an income, 0:03:14.480,0:03:17.280 even if they couldn't find employment? 0:03:17.280,0:03:20.480 Today, a utopia where[br]everyone gets paid? 0:03:20.480,0:03:23.460 Switzerland may scrap[br]its anti-poverty programs 0:03:23.460,0:03:26.000 and replace them with[br]an unconditional basic income. 0:03:27.000,0:03:30.560 An unconditional basic income,[br]what is that? 0:03:30.560,0:03:34.879 Exactly what the word says,[br]that everyone aged 18 or older, 0:03:34.879,0:03:37.160 regardless of gender or current income, 0:03:37.160,0:03:40.039 receives a basic income[br]from the government, 0:03:40.039,0:03:42.679 unconditionally, whether you have a job, 0:03:42.679,0:03:45.920 are studying or remain at home[br]to take care of the kids, 0:03:45.920,0:03:50.250 everyone receives the same[br]to meet his basic needs. 0:03:50.250,0:03:55.400 You are allowed to work and earn as much[br]as you want on top of your basic income. 0:03:55.400,0:03:58.280 In Belgium, various people[br]have been working 0:03:58.280,0:04:00.759 on a basic income since the 80s. 0:04:00.759,0:04:03.719 For example, Philippe van Parijs[br]set up a working group 0:04:03.719,0:04:07.439 with, among others, Guy Standing[br]and Roland Duchâtelet. 0:04:07.439,0:04:09.439 We still know Duchâtelet from Vivant 0:04:09.439,0:04:13.079 but today he is primarily known as the owner[br]of several football teams. 0:04:13.079,0:04:15.479 Francine Mestrum is one of the rare 0:04:15.479,0:04:17.678 but very vocal opponents. 0:04:18.947,0:04:23.079 Psychiatrist Dirk de Wachter and[br]Sarah van Liefferinghe of the Pirate Party 0:04:23.079,0:04:26.759 see the advantages[br]for people's well-being. 0:04:26.759,0:04:28.759 We see how many people are stuck 0:04:28.759,0:04:34.159 in the rat race of working more,[br]working harder, working longer, 0:04:34.159,0:04:39.000 so we can consume more[br]and our economy can grow. 0:04:39.000,0:04:42.599 But we feel, and so do a lot of people,[br]that this model frustrates us, 0:04:42.599,0:04:45.079 it exhausts us and[br]makes us emotionally empty. 0:04:45.079,0:04:48.265 A lot of people can't handle the work, 0:04:48.265,0:04:50.531 consider it too burdening, 0:04:50.531,0:04:56.439 come to me and say:[br]"Doctor, help me, I can't go on" 0:04:56.439,0:05:01.919 and "helping", as a doctor, means[br]declaring them "unfit for work". 0:05:01.919,0:05:04.359 And so, in the last ten years[br]the number of people 0:05:04.359,0:05:06.519 who became chronically unfit for work[br]has risen with 50%, 0:05:08.510,0:05:11.609 we have to start thinking about that[br]on a fundamental level 0:05:11.609,0:05:15.359 and basic income[br]is one of those fundamental things 0:05:15.359,0:05:19.000 that can provide a beginning for that. 0:05:19.420,0:05:23.800 The time for basic income is now. 0:05:23.800,0:05:27.026 And the reason is that with globalisation,[br]that took off in the 1980s, 0:05:30.082,0:05:35.040 what has actually been happening is,[br]the world's labor supply, 0:05:35.040,0:05:41.660 the number of people exposed[br]to a global labor market, has quadrupled. 0:05:41.700,0:05:46.013 So what has been happening[br]in the last 30 years 0:05:46.013,0:05:49.746 is a downward pressure[br]on our real wages. 0:05:54.516,0:05:56.559 The British economist Guy Standing 0:05:56.559,0:06:00.119 led the largest experiment[br]with a basic income ever. 0:06:00.119,0:06:06.120 In India 20,000 people received[br]a real basic income for two years. 0:06:06.120,0:06:10.720 Soon, he'll share with the world[br]those incredible results. 0:06:10.720,0:06:12.679 Recently he was a guest in Brussels, 0:06:12.679,0:06:15.800 on invitation of former EU commissioner 0:06:15.800,0:06:19.000 of employment and social affairs,[br]Laszlo Andor. 0:06:20.680,0:06:22.680 Thank you very much. 0:06:22.680,0:06:28.060 The worst thing would be[br]to go back to the old norm. 0:06:28.060,0:06:32.480 Professor Standing used to work at[br]the International Labour Organisation. 0:06:32.480,0:06:34.200 Now he talks in his books 0:06:34.200,0:06:37.160 about the growing underclass[br]in our society 0:06:37.160,0:06:40.440 and what he, with a neologism,[br]calls the precariat. 0:06:40.440,0:06:43.073 The precariat consists 0:06:43.073,0:06:47.256 of millions and millions of people 0:06:47.256,0:06:50.770 exposed to insecure labor. 0:06:50.770,0:06:52.900 Without knowing where they're going. 0:06:52.900,0:06:56.280 They have no sense[br]of occupational career. 0:06:56.280,0:07:00.130 It's a trend in which we've been stuck[br]since the 80s, with Thatcher and Reagan, 0:07:00.130,0:07:03.639 and after 30 years of "greed is good" 0:07:03.639,0:07:05.500 it's time for something else. 0:07:05.500,0:07:08.000 Other models, now! 0:07:09.720,0:07:13.240 Invest in people, not in weapons![br]Michel, U-turn or war! 0:07:13.240,0:07:15.243 Shut up and work! 0:07:15.243,0:07:17.246 0:07:17.246,0:07:19.270 No cuts to our future! 0:07:19.270,0:07:22.280 Harder? Faster? Longer?[br]Like Machines? 0:07:23.720,0:07:28.000 And this uncertainly[br]is extremely stressful. 0:07:28.000,0:07:32.610 So people in the precariat[br]are living, mostly, 0:07:32.610,0:07:36.000 on the edge of unsustainable debt. 0:07:36.000,0:07:40.160 One accident,[br]and they're out in the streets. 0:07:40.000,0:07:45.360 According to the countries,[br]we are now 2 or 3 times richer 0:07:45.360,0:07:49.320 per capita[br]than in the golden 60s, 0:07:49.320,0:07:52.690 and we're still here with an[br]enormous amount of unemployment. 0:07:52.690,0:07:57.280 People who fear for their job,[br]and we're 2 to 3 times richer. 0:07:57.290,0:08:00.239 Aren't we all acting[br]completely foolishly? 0:08:00.239,0:08:03.879 Poverty is solved with income, 0:08:03.879,0:08:07.770 so people need to receive benefits[br]that are high enough, 0:08:07.770,0:08:09.980 which is not happening today. 0:08:09.980,0:08:14.020 The proponents of a basic income[br]are completely right in that regard, 0:08:14.020,0:08:16.939 poor people need an income 0:08:16.939,0:08:19.000 to live in dignity. 0:08:21.479,0:08:24.280 To see with our own eyes[br]what a basic income 0:08:24.280,0:08:28.399 does to people in poverty,[br]we traveled to Namibia, 0:08:28.399,0:08:30.479 a country of great contrasts. 0:08:30.479,0:08:33.600 The gigantic profits[br]from diamond exports 0:08:33.600,0:08:36.840 stand in shrill contrast[br]with the dangerous situation 0:08:36.840,0:08:38.950 where people live in poverty. 0:08:40.280,0:08:43.520 Otjivero is a poor settlement[br]in the desert 0:08:43.520,0:08:45.799 where people had nothing at all. 0:08:47.960,0:08:51.530 We were dirt poor,[br]here in Otjivero. 0:08:51.530,0:08:53.530 But thanks to the basic income 0:08:53.530,0:08:56.030 we had something to eat[br]and somewhere to sleep. 0:08:56.940,0:09:01.159 Otjivero was chosen in 2009[br]for an experiment 0:09:01.159,0:09:06.079 where its 930 residents received[br]100 Namibian dollars each month 0:09:06.079,0:09:08.879 or about 7 euros per person. 0:09:08.879,0:09:11.560 Unconditionally,[br]people were free to decide 0:09:11.560,0:09:14.060 what they would do[br]with that money. 0:09:14.060,0:09:20.473 It was mostly plastic[br]and carton box-houses, 0:09:20.473,0:09:22.736 in which people lived. 0:09:22.736,0:09:26.400 And the grant proved 0:09:26.400,0:09:32.000 that after six months,[br]a year after the implementation, 0:09:32.000,0:09:37.360 - you could see how[br]the face of Otjivero changed. 0:09:38.000,0:09:42.480 The Namibian council of churches,[br]a few labor unions and NGO's 0:09:42.480,0:09:45.759 provided the funds[br]for this extraordinary project. 0:09:45.759,0:09:49.400 Priest Wilfred Diergaart[br]and bishop Zephania Kameeta 0:09:49.400,0:09:54.129 chose Otjivero as the ideal[br]settlement for this experiment. 0:09:54.129,0:09:56.239 This piece of no man's land[br]in the desert 0:09:56.239,0:09:58.675 is populated[br]by various ethnic groups. 0:09:59.841,0:10:02.079 Scientists Claudia[br]and Dirk Haarmann 0:10:02.079,0:10:04.519 have performed intensive[br]research on location 0:10:04.519,0:10:07.399 and in cooperation with[br]the University of Cape Town 0:10:07.399,0:10:09.000 they analyzed the results. 0:10:09.000,0:10:11.513 When we started with the pilot project,[br]we thought 0:10:11.513,0:10:14.036 that 100 Namibian dollars[br]is not a lot of money, 0:10:14.036,0:10:17.800 it will just make the difference[br]in terms of food security 0:10:17.800,0:10:23.000 and it will just help people to cope[br]with their daily lives in poverty. 0:10:23.000,0:10:26.380 But we were actually very[br]surprised by the results: 0:10:26.380,0:10:32.160 malnourishment went down[br]from 42 to 10 percent. 0:10:32.160,0:10:34.160 People had enough food to eat. 0:10:34.160,0:10:38.280 But the amazing thing is that[br]people really started to become active 0:10:38.280,0:10:40.560 and took their lives into their own hands. 0:10:40.560,0:10:44.300 And there actually was a real[br]empowerment process within the village. 0:10:46.360,0:10:49.400 Thanks to the basic income,[br]my business flourished. 0:10:49.400,0:10:52.800 I'm a carpenter, I make beds and such. 0:10:54.000,0:10:58.240 We thought about[br]how we could improve our lives. 0:10:58.240,0:11:04.040 Marie-Rose set up as a hairdresser.[br]She also sells bread and biscuits. 0:11:05.240,0:11:07.560 It's my job. 0:11:07.560,0:11:09.440 I get money from here. 0:11:10.771,0:11:14.000 It's called purchasing power:[br]as soon as you give people money, 0:11:14.000,0:11:16.000 they can also spend it. 0:11:17.600,0:11:21.760 The greatest success[br]I have seen there, 0:11:21.760,0:11:24.640 was the establishment of a bakery 0:11:24.640,0:11:27.640 from the proceeds of this grant. 0:11:27.640,0:11:29.240 My name is Frida. 0:11:29.240,0:11:34.440 That bakery has now reached[br]the level of self-sustainability. 0:11:34.440,0:11:39.840 If you give a person money,[br]why should they become lazy? 0:11:39.840,0:11:43.880 Take me, I'm not lazy,[br]I have been given hope again, 0:11:43.880,0:11:48.000 and I'm busy every day. 0:11:48.000,0:11:53.440 If you give someone money, they can decide[br]for themselves what to do with it. 0:11:53.440,0:11:57.760 The government only gave us corn flour 0:11:57.760,0:12:00.440 but not everyone eats porridge. 0:12:00.440,0:12:03.600 How do you know that everybody[br]likes to eat corn flour? 0:12:03.600,0:12:06.160 Not everyone eats it. 0:12:07.250,0:12:11.280 You give them money and they[br]decide what they want to buy. 0:12:11.280,0:12:16.520 And that is the way[br]an adult learns about life. 0:12:16.520,0:12:21.120 It is an adult policy, rather[br]than a paternalistic policy. 0:12:22.000,0:12:25.919 But why do we need[br]a basic income in Belgium 0:12:25.919,0:12:29.240 when we already have[br]such an extensive benefits system? 0:12:29.240,0:12:34.480 Well, you only get money[br]unconditionally if you're the king. 0:12:34.480,0:12:37.599 Belgium does have[br]a fine social safety net, 0:12:37.599,0:12:41.039 but it's also terribly complex. 0:12:41.039,0:12:44.440 If people start working part-time,[br]which is sometimes possible, 0:12:44.440,0:12:47.559 they have less income[br]than their disability benefits. 0:12:47.559,0:12:50.399 So they are punished for it. 0:12:50.399,0:12:52.800 That is exceptionally counterproductive. 0:12:52.800,0:12:56.759 It makes you dependent, that also[br]takes away your motivation. 0:12:56.759,0:13:00.079 You earn less with a low paying job 0:13:00.079,0:13:02.159 than you would get on benefits. 0:13:02.159,0:13:05.119 So one of the main arguments[br]in favour of basic income 0:13:05.119,0:13:07.320 in the Belgian or European context 0:13:07.320,0:13:10.759 is that the current system[br]creates a sort of poverty trap, 0:13:10.759,0:13:15.349 an unemployment trap,[br]because it's conditional, 0:13:15.349,0:13:17.629 because those benefits[br]are conditional. 0:13:17.629,0:13:20.759 We have gotten to the point[br]where we are paying people 0:13:20.759,0:13:25.280 to monitor what an unemployed[br]person is doing, and that's insane. 0:13:25.280,0:13:31.200 And with a basic income grant, you[br]don't need a huge administration. 0:13:31.000,0:13:34.720 The redistribution of money currently[br]requires us to spend a lot of money 0:13:34.720,0:13:38.960 on people who are doing something[br]that is frankly pointless. 0:13:38.960,0:13:41.160 Or people who are replaceable this way. 0:13:41.160,0:13:43.919 So we can make that redistribution[br]a lot more efficient 0:13:43.919,0:13:46.600 by just giving a basic income. 0:13:46.600,0:13:50.200 And the people themselves,[br]they do not need to cheat. 0:13:50.200,0:13:52.880 Also, there's no way you can cheat. 0:14:00.000,0:14:04.200 If no one can commit fraud[br]to get a basic income, 0:14:04.200,0:14:07.799 no one needs to be checked. 0:14:07.799,0:14:09.640 One of the foremost parts 0:14:09.640,0:14:13.119 in our benefits system[br]becomes obsolete this way. 0:14:14.439,0:14:17.500 Who was it that was looking[br]for more ways to cut spending? 0:14:23.760,0:14:27.719 Basic income is an idea[br]that refuses to die. 0:14:27.719,0:14:31.719 It started[br]with Thomas Paine in 1795. 0:14:31.719,0:14:34.119 But also in 1848 in Brussels 0:14:34.119,0:14:38.759 Belgian Liberal Joseph Charlier[br]wrote about it in this house. 0:14:44.640,0:14:46.600 That proposal is really a proposal 0:14:46.600,0:14:48.840 of a really unconditional basic income. 0:14:48.840,0:14:51.000 Modest, but really unconditional. 0:14:51.640,0:14:56.470 Only the person[br]whose basic necessities are met 0:14:56.470,0:14:58.280 is independent. 0:14:58.280,0:15:04.990 Currently, those who depend on others[br]for their absolute needs are slaves. 0:15:05.000,0:15:12.000 Perhaps one last excerpt that[br]also expresses the ambition well. 0:15:12.120,0:15:19.120 The answer to the social problem is[br]as simple as it is far-reaching. 0:15:20.000,0:15:23.439 That a simple idea[br]can have immense consequences, 0:15:23.439,0:15:26.249 also proves this Belgian phenomenon. 0:15:26.249,0:15:27.759 No thank you. 0:15:27.759,0:15:30.759 Just kidding, gracias![br]Grazie! 0:15:30.759,0:15:35.720 Yes, with 2000 euros a month you don't need[br]to worry for the rest of your life. 0:15:35.720,0:15:37.920 Win For Life, don't worry. 0:15:37.920,0:15:41.480 I scratched that lottery ticket in 2010 0:15:41.480,0:15:45.079 and it still didn't really sink in. 0:15:45.079,0:15:49.000 But when you stick[br]that ticket in the machine, 0:15:49.000,0:15:52.320 and that jingle plays, you're like 0:15:52.320,0:15:54.000 "it really is real." 0:15:54.000,0:15:55.799 And then she said "oh, you're lucky, 0:15:55.799,0:15:58.840 because it's always paid out[br]on the first of the month, 0:15:58.840,0:16:03.359 so starting the day after tomorrow,[br]every month 2000 euros 0:16:03.359,0:16:05.240 will be deposited into your account. 0:16:05.240,0:16:06.679 For the rest of your life. 0:16:06.679,0:16:09.159 We'll call our winner Anja. 0:16:09.159,0:16:11.159 She is worried about the stigma 0:16:11.159,0:16:13.880 that she'd become lazy[br]for the rest of her life. 0:16:15.370,0:16:18.989 Actually I'm working more than I used to, 0:16:18.989,0:16:20.600 since I got the Win For Life. 0:16:20.600,0:16:22.759 But also because I like doing it. 0:16:22.759,0:16:27.920 What I'm doing as an entrepreneur,[br]that doesn't feel like working to me, 0:16:27.920,0:16:32.359 because I like doing it,[br]but if I hadn't had that Win For Life, 0:16:32.359,0:16:36.950 I never would've had the chance[br]to do what I like doing. 0:16:36.950,0:16:38.749 That's just wonderful. 0:16:38.749,0:16:40.460 That woman does what she likes. 0:16:40.460,0:16:43.080 She is free,[br]that's really the whole point. 0:16:43.080,0:16:45.959 A basic income[br]is a freedom income 0:16:45.959,0:16:49.400 and people don't realise that yet. 0:16:49.400,0:16:52.979 And when you see the collective[br]happiness that is being wasted, 0:16:52.979,0:16:57.320 because people refuse to seriously[br]think about it, that's huge. 0:16:57.320,0:17:02.840 That full time job is no longer[br]putting me under pressure either, 0:17:02.840,0:17:05.239 like it was before. 0:17:05.239,0:17:08.519 I think that for a lot of people[br]it's like: "I have to keep this job, 0:17:08.519,0:17:11.239 because it's all that I have[br]and it's something to hold on to" 0:17:11.239,0:17:15.439 and in my case it's: "Well, if I[br]Iose that job, it's not a disaster." 0:17:15.439,0:17:18.680 Something I've concluded[br]as an entrepreneur is 0:17:18.680,0:17:21.159 people who like doing things 0:17:21.159,0:17:25.358 do it really well and they are[br]much more productive than people 0:17:25.358,0:17:27.920 who are working because they have to. 0:17:27.920,0:17:33.749 That is also the function[br]of a basic income, 0:17:33.749,0:17:37.080 in terms of people's human capital. 0:17:37.080,0:17:42.240 I would never have started my own business[br]if I hadn't had that Win For Life, 0:17:42.240,0:17:47.479 for fear of failure or becoming bankrupt. 0:17:47.479,0:17:51.199 Anja also had more worries[br]before she won her Win For Life. 0:17:51.199,0:17:54.159 Damn, my hair dryer broke down. 0:17:54.159,0:17:59.599 For example, about the safety[br]of the ramshackle house she lived in 0:17:59.599,0:18:02.280 and she couldn't count[br]on financial help from home 0:18:02.280,0:18:05.280 to buy a proper house. 0:18:05.280,0:18:10.960 I never would've dreamed[br]we could live in such a beautiful house. 0:18:10.960,0:18:14.660 But that was not a problem, because[br]suddenly the bank was glad to see us, 0:18:14.660,0:18:18.360 with 2000 euros extra income. 0:18:18.360,0:18:22.360 So in the case of Win For Life[br]it is "For Life". 0:18:22.360,0:18:27.800 But the big problem there is[br]that there is a huge difference 0:18:27.800,0:18:33.639 between 10, 100, 1000 people[br]in 11 million. 0:18:33.639,0:18:36.960 But what happens in the heads[br]of those 11 million Belgians 0:18:36.960,0:18:40.099 when we randomly offer a few people 0:18:40.099,0:18:43.199 an unconditional chance[br]at 2000 euros a month? 0:18:43.199,0:18:45.000 Would they stop working? 0:18:46.000,0:18:49.880 2000 is a nice amount. 0:18:49.880,0:18:55.120 I wouldn't directly stop working,[br]but my partner might. 0:18:55.120,0:18:59.640 You could go on a short[br]vacation more often. 0:18:59.640,0:19:02.280 That would make life[br]more pleasant and easier. 0:19:02.280,0:19:04.280 Perhaps a renovation? 0:19:04.280,0:19:08.320 I'd also save, I wouldn't immediately[br]spend it on fancy things. 0:19:08.320,0:19:11.080 For the rest of your life you wouldn't[br]have to work for somebody else. 0:19:11.080,0:19:15.080 I'd open a shop and I'd quit my job. 0:19:15.080,0:19:18.060 Open a shop or a restaurant. 0:19:18.680,0:19:23.000 I'll tell you right now[br]that I'd use it for good causes. 0:19:23.000,0:19:26.520 Small-scale projects from people[br]who want to do something 0:19:26.520,0:19:28.640 or the less wealthy. 0:19:28.640,0:19:32.280 Orphans, I pity them a lot as well. 0:19:32.280,0:19:34.280 Can I scratch now? 0:19:34.000,0:19:37.520 The reactions here[br]confirm the expectations 0:19:37.520,0:19:40.599 of the societal effect[br]of a basic income. 0:19:40.599,0:19:42.679 It makes people think[br]about their free time, 0:19:42.679,0:19:45.650 it makes people more independent[br]and nobody thinks of being lazy. 0:19:45.650,0:19:47.080 Alas. 0:19:47.880,0:19:49.440 Too bad. 0:19:50.489,0:19:52.280 But what do they think[br]about the implementation 0:19:52.280,0:19:56.000 of a basic income for each Belgian? 0:19:56.280,0:19:59.640 That is of course not a bad idea,[br]but it's not feasible. 0:19:59.640,0:20:01.360 It's not feasible. 0:20:01.360,0:20:03.400 Freedom is a sensitive matter to me. 0:20:03.400,0:20:06.760 It's a fantastic system,[br]if it's for everyone. 0:20:06.760,0:20:10.560 If everyone can decide[br]what to do with it, 0:20:10.560,0:20:12.320 I'll sign up right now, immediately. 0:20:12.320,0:20:15.640 If everyone is doing well,[br]then there's also no misery. 0:20:15.640,0:20:20.840 Where will they get the money in the[br]first place, is what I'm thinking. 0:20:20.840,0:20:25.600 I won't scratch for too long,[br]because I still have potatoes to cook. 0:20:28.000,0:20:32.719 If there is a country where there is[br]enough money for a basic income, 0:20:32.719,0:20:34.719 it's Switzerland. 0:20:34.719,0:20:38.480 The citizens of the country[br]of banks will vote in 2016 0:20:38.480,0:20:41.720 on a basic income for every Swiss. 0:20:41.720,0:20:43.519 A group of a few artists 0:20:43.519,0:20:46.640 is calling itself[br]"Generation basic income". 0:20:46.640,0:20:49.640 They collected[br]more than 100,000 signatures 0:20:49.640,0:20:52.359 and compelled their government[br]to a referendum 0:20:52.359,0:20:55.160 through the Swiss system[br]of direct democracy. 0:20:55.160,0:20:58.160 If people vote yes, 0:20:58.160,0:21:01.499 the Swiss government will be[br]constitutionally obligated 0:21:01.499,0:21:04.159 to implement the system,[br]no matter what. 0:21:04.159,0:21:07.520 With that, Switzerland is internationally 0:21:07.520,0:21:11.600 the furthest along with a possible utopia. 0:21:14.119,0:21:16.029 Daniel Häni is an entrepreneur, 0:21:16.029,0:21:18.719 and the man behind[br]"Unternehmen mitte" in Basel, 0:21:18.719,0:21:21.439 a coffee bar in a former bank building 0:21:21.439,0:21:25.000 where everyone is welcome,[br]without having to consume anything. 0:21:25.680,0:21:29.600 The referendum is a political process. 0:21:29.600,0:21:35.880 People ask themselves questions 0:21:35.880,0:21:39.520 and when people ask themselves[br]questions, they think. 0:21:39.520,0:21:42.640 In that way, awareness starts to exist. 0:21:42.640,0:21:46.720 The action of the money pile in Bern[br]also fits in that context. 0:21:53.800,0:21:58.480 The basic income is an idea in a situation 0:21:58.480,0:22:02.680 where there is plenty of everything. 0:22:03.556,0:22:07.000 These are in fact[br]8 million real Swiss coins. 0:22:07.000,0:22:11.850 With this stunt, "Generation basic income"[br]drew international attention. 0:22:11.840,0:22:15.560 You stand in front of that money pile[br]and you ask yourself: 0:22:15.560,0:22:18.400 "What's still missing,[br]if everything is there?" 0:22:20.000,0:22:23.439 The Swiss are often said to be neutral. 0:22:23.439,0:22:25.120 Enno Schmidt is very clear: 0:22:25.120,0:22:28.560 Even in a rich country like[br]Switzerland, a basic income 0:22:28.560,0:22:31.000 is possible and necessary. 0:22:33.080,0:22:39.200 Whether people vote yes or no,[br]is of course very important to us. 0:22:39.200,0:22:41.200 We want to win. 0:22:41.200,0:22:44.840 But to understand how a democracy[br]works, you have to say: 0:22:44.840,0:22:48.280 even if the majority votes[br]against basic income, 0:22:48.280,0:22:51.880 it tells us where we stand,[br]and that's good. 0:22:55.000,0:22:58.725 Enno and Co. have a long way[br]to go with their campaign 0:22:58.725,0:23:01.614 because the man in the street[br]still has many doubts. 0:23:01.614,0:23:07.360 I really don't know yet, you have[br]to weigh up these things. 0:23:07.360,0:23:10.320 I haven't thought enough about it yet. 0:23:10.320,0:23:16.280 I can't say if I find it good or bad. 0:23:16.040,0:23:18.040 I really don't know yet. 0:23:18.040,0:23:22.600 With basic income[br]a discussion gets started 0:23:22.600,0:23:27.400 about what you really want[br]to do. 0:23:27.400,0:23:32.520 I'd take the time to ask myself 0:23:32.520,0:23:37.200 if what I'm doing now[br]is what I really want to do. 0:23:37.200,0:23:39.200 It's a development. 0:23:39.200,0:23:43.720 This is what we're doing now[br]as a part of history. 0:23:43.720,0:23:48.560 It's necessary that a lot of people[br]concern themselves with basic income 0:23:48.560,0:23:52.880 and develop[br]the ability necessary for that. 0:23:52.880,0:23:55.640 It shows when you think about the matter. 0:23:55.640,0:23:58.720 A lot of people[br]can't think for themselves. 0:23:58.720,0:24:02.640 They give in to[br]an argument "and that's that". 0:24:02.640,0:24:06.560 So they have to develop independence, 0:24:06.560,0:24:09.960 just like other powers[br]they don't have yet. 0:24:09.960,0:24:12.640 Then you're already[br]close to a basic income. 0:24:13.000,0:24:18.000 Alright, dear Swiss,[br]but you're not that special. 0:24:18.000,0:24:20.839 In Europe, citizens can submit[br]an initiative as well. 0:24:20.839,0:24:23.039 The European citizen's initiative 0:24:23.039,0:24:26.880 is an initiative[br]from the European Commission. 0:24:26.880,0:24:30.399 Christina Lambrecht of the Belgian[br]movement for basic income 0:24:30.399,0:24:32.480 explains how it works. 0:24:32.480,0:24:36.559 We have written up a text[br]regarding basic income. 0:24:36.559,0:24:38.760 We submitted it to the Commission, 0:24:38.760,0:24:41.210 and they said "Okay, you can go for it." 0:24:41.560,0:24:45.800 First of all, we have to surpass[br]a minimum threshold of 7 countries. 0:24:45.800,0:24:48.273 15 countries have already[br]joined the campaign, 0:24:48.273,0:24:50.426 and are getting ready[br]to collect signatures. 0:24:50.426,0:24:54.599 So in Belgium we had[br]to reach 16,500 signatures. 0:24:54.599,0:24:57.160 We reached 19,500. 0:24:57.160,0:24:59.519 When I reached the ministry, 0:24:59.519,0:25:02.719 they said to me, very friendly, mind you, 0:25:02.719,0:25:05.689 dear madam, we can't do anything[br]with that at the moment, 0:25:05.689,0:25:08.760 at this moment everyone[br]is in election mode, 0:25:08.760,0:25:11.960 and the current minister of home affairs, 0:25:11.960,0:25:15.719 I won't mention her name,[br]that's not very friendly, 0:25:15.719,0:25:18.399 she's going to file that in a cabinet 0:25:18.399,0:25:20.320 and no one's going to look at it anymore. 0:25:20.320,0:25:25.359 So in my home I have 19,500[br]signatures of all those Belgians, 0:25:25.359,0:25:28.759 from north and south[br]who supported our initiative 0:25:28.759,0:25:32.119 and frankly haven't been recognized to say 0:25:32.119,0:25:36.719 "Look, we want the European Commission[br]to put that idea on the table." 0:25:38.139,0:25:40.070 Ok, let's go back to Switzerland. 0:25:40.070,0:25:42.600 Ironically, the country[br]that isn't a member of the EU 0:25:42.600,0:25:46.549 and where a national[br]citizen's initiative is binding. 0:25:59.000,0:26:01.680 Tumasch is a biological farmer 0:26:01.680,0:26:04.560 in the beautiful mountains[br]of Lower Engadin. 0:26:07.250,0:26:12.560 What would happen, if an unconditional[br]basic income was implemented? 0:26:12.560,0:26:14.760 What do you think about it? 0:26:14.760,0:26:20.240 I would get a freedom[br]I do not currently have. 0:26:20.240,0:26:25.680 The basic income[br]would be a sort of subsisdy. 0:26:27.200,0:26:32.800 But I would still keep working.[br]And it has more advantages. 0:26:32.800,0:26:36.880 Like what?[br]- It's the only solution 0:26:36.880,0:26:41.120 for our disrupted relations... 0:26:41.120,0:26:47.400 ...or rather our disrupted[br]financial system. 0:26:47.400,0:26:53.760 That's really a social problem[br]that needs a solution. 0:26:53.760,0:26:59.440 And right now there is[br]no better idea than basic income. 0:27:00.000,0:27:03.000 In Switzerland the idea is ripening, 0:27:03.000,0:27:04.679 but how are we doing? 0:27:04.679,0:27:08.119 We're willing to dream[br]about a better future, 0:27:08.119,0:27:09.880 but our daily way of life 0:27:09.880,0:27:12.320 is still controlled by entrenched ideas. 0:27:12.320,0:27:14.919 The concept of a work week, 0:27:14.919,0:27:16.839 that's an obsolete concept. 0:27:16.839,0:27:20.000 The concept of a retirement pension[br]at a certain age, 0:27:20.000,0:27:22.240 that's actually also an obsolete concept. 0:27:23.039,0:27:26.719 En then there's the robots, those are[br]only getting better at their work 0:27:26.719,0:27:28.879 and they don't get burnouts. 0:27:28.879,0:27:31.679 Robots are already taking over[br]a large part of our work 0:27:31.679,0:27:35.439 and in the future that[br]will increase by another 47%. 0:27:37.129,0:27:40.549 We can actually afford[br]to hand out money to everyone 0:27:40.549,0:27:43.359 and those who want to work[br]get some more money 0:27:43.359,0:27:45.069 and those who don't want to work 0:27:45.069,0:27:47.480 they don't work and do what they want. 0:27:47.480,0:27:50.240 In principle, society is[br]rich enough to do that. 0:27:50.240,0:27:53.359 With a basic income really everyone 0:27:53.359,0:27:56.000 in the history of mankind 0:27:56.000,0:27:58.640 gets the choice about the kind of work[br]they want to do. 0:28:00.840,0:28:04.000 Finally the flexible labor market[br]that people want so badly. 0:28:05.440,0:28:11.200 "Labor market" is actually an ugly word;[br]people are not merchandise. 0:28:11.200,0:28:16.280 But with a basic income it will[br]finally become a real market. 0:28:16.280,0:28:20.880 Then you can say yes or no to a job.[br]So you can also say no. 0:28:21.000,0:28:24.080 With a basic income for everyone 0:28:24.080,0:28:28.630 you radically oppose[br]the ruling status quo. 0:28:28.630,0:28:32.360 Freedom must be the most important thing,[br]those who want to work can do that 0:28:32.360,0:28:34.560 and so can those who don't. 0:28:34.560,0:28:36.439 Power to the people. 0:28:36.439,0:28:38.420 Who could be opposed to that? 0:28:42.360,0:28:46.920 If people have a choice, they are[br]empowered to make their own decisions, 0:28:46.920,0:28:50.760 they are empowered to become[br]responsible, democratic citizens. 0:28:50.760,0:28:56.840 This is not always in business' interest[br]or in every politicians' interest. 0:28:57.000,0:29:00.799 Basic income will give employees[br]the possibility 0:29:00.799,0:29:03.480 to say no to unattractive jobs. 0:29:03.480,0:29:06.720 At a recent debate about basic income 0:29:06.720,0:29:08.640 this aspect quickly becomes the topic. 0:29:08.640,0:29:12.439 The basic income is a floor, a base, 0:29:12.439,0:29:14.800 on which people can build a life. 0:29:14.800,0:29:17.920 Not a net in which people remain trapped. 0:29:17.920,0:29:20.760 Well, when you think about it a bit, 0:29:20.760,0:29:23.879 it turns out it's not just[br]something that's fair, 0:29:23.879,0:29:26.220 but also better for the economy 0:29:26.220,0:29:28.559 and better for the health of our society. 0:29:28.559,0:29:32.289 I mentioned just now,[br]and I think we fully agree, 0:29:32.289,0:29:35.439 our labor market is changing greatly. 0:29:35.439,0:29:40.640 But paying a basic income[br]for that is nonsense! 0:29:40.640,0:29:43.799 Francine Mestrum continues[br]to oppose the basic income 0:29:43.799,0:29:47.000 because she worries about[br]the liberal thinking behind it 0:29:47.000,0:29:51.520 and possible deterioration[br]of current social protection. 0:29:51.520,0:29:54.600 There are thousands of people waiting, 0:29:54.600,0:29:57.520 who will take any job. 0:29:57.520,0:30:02.239 So, not a chance that employers will say 0:30:02.239,0:30:03.959 "We'll still pay you just as much" 0:30:03.959,0:30:07.879 "Oh, you don't want to do that work[br]anymore, I will pay you some more" 0:30:07.879,0:30:10.879 That chance is zero. 0:30:10.879,0:30:12.599 But what is something that could happen? 0:30:12.599,0:30:17.439 What could happen, well, what[br]my organisation is working on 0:30:17.439,0:30:19.959 and what we try to defend 0:30:19.959,0:30:22.860 is a reform of the[br]social protection system. 0:30:22.860,0:30:26.029 We have worked for a 100 years 0:30:26.029,0:30:30.480 on a system of social[br]protection with rights. 0:30:30.480,0:30:37.719 And today it's not working[br]well enough yet. 0:30:37.719,0:30:41.000 So we need to improve it, 0:30:41.000,0:30:43.599 but we can't throw it overboard, 0:30:43.599,0:30:45.480 we don't have that right. 0:30:45.480,0:30:49.400 I don't think it's useful[br]to turn the knobs 0:30:49.400,0:30:52.270 and increase child benefits[br]a bit for the first one, 0:30:52.270,0:30:54.520 decrease a bit for the[br]second one, and... 0:30:54.520,0:30:57.629 It no longer works, we must dare[br]to rethink it radically. 0:30:58.079,0:31:01.840 Young people are more prone[br]to question existing systems 0:31:01.840,0:31:05.379 and we hear and see that[br]at this debate. 0:31:05.379,0:31:08.000 Yes, just like most people[br]who came to listen, 0:31:08.000,0:31:11.599 I have heard good arguments[br]for and against. 0:31:11.599,0:31:15.240 Yes, a friend of mine[br]introduced it a year or two ago 0:31:15.240,0:31:17.390 and I was immediately opposed. 0:31:17.390,0:31:20.680 Because I thought,[br]that is such a leftist utopia, 0:31:20.680,0:31:23.560 no realistic person[br]can be in favor of that. 0:31:23.560,0:31:26.159 But in the meantime[br]I've read so much about it 0:31:26.159,0:31:27.666 and I've changed my mind. 0:31:27.666,0:31:30.680 I see a young generation of people 0:31:30.680,0:31:33.379 and in the coming years,[br]this young generation 0:31:33.379,0:31:34.840 will have to raise its voice. 0:31:34.840,0:31:38.000 A young generation of people[br]who think completely differently 0:31:38.000,0:31:40.560 about work, about society. 0:31:40.560,0:31:43.080 Take me as an example:[br]I am unemployed, 0:31:43.080,0:31:45.080 I'm educated,[br]I'm unemployed. 0:31:45.080,0:31:46.599 Diploma,[br]still unemployed. 0:31:46.599,0:31:49.199 Started a degree, completed it,[br]still unemployed. 0:31:49.199,0:31:51.990 Completed paid training,[br]still unemployed. 0:31:51.990,0:31:54.000 If someone were in my place,[br]they would say 0:31:54.000,0:31:56.919 Don't do it,[br]just go to sleep. 0:31:56.919,0:32:00.560 Young people don't think[br]like the previous generation, 0:32:00.560,0:32:04.680 For them the world is something new,[br]they're discovering it. 0:32:04.680,0:32:07.080 I think young people 0:32:07.080,0:32:10.159 are far more likely to assume[br]the existence of prosperity. 0:32:10.159,0:32:13.159 I think it's good[br]that people start thinking 0:32:13.159,0:32:16.680 about the social rights of a human 0:32:16.680,0:32:19.400 and these days people[br]mostly point towards the duties. 0:32:19.400,0:32:22.830 These days people are mostly thinking[br]about activating, activating, 0:32:22.830,0:32:25.050 but yes, indeed, the duty to contribute, 0:32:25.050,0:32:27.240 but you're also entitled[br]to get something. 0:32:27.240,0:32:30.159 Basic income underscores that right[br]and creates happiness. 0:32:30.159,0:32:34.159 Then I want to ask you what you're going[br]to do with your basic income system 0:32:34.159,0:32:38.169 when someone 0:32:38.169,0:32:42.239 is feeling down, 0:32:42.239,0:32:46.280 say, he goes gambling one night,[br]and he loses everything. 0:32:46.280,0:32:50.190 His money is gone,[br]what do you tell him? 0:32:50.190,0:32:53.759 "You've had your chance. Too bad."? 0:32:53.759,0:32:56.040 Will he die in the gutter, or what? 0:32:56.040,0:32:58.186 A universal scheme 0:32:58.186,0:33:02.002 means, I know you're receiving it,[br]and you know I'm receiving it. 0:33:02.002,0:33:04.520 It means, I can say to you: 0:33:04.520,0:33:08.880 You've got a basic income,[br]try make something out of it. 0:33:08.880,0:33:10.880 And you can say the same to me. 0:33:10.880,0:33:16.560 When you talk to the people in Otjivero,[br]they will tell you: 0:33:16.560,0:33:20.039 We feel like one family. 0:33:21.440,0:33:27.480 They told us before that no one was caring for anyone. 0:33:28.160,0:33:33.146 Even if there was a fight[br]at a house close to you, 0:33:33.146,0:33:36.112 you would not go and enquire. 0:33:36.112,0:33:41.200 But now we have grown[br]into one family. 0:33:46.000,0:33:50.519 So basic income enhances[br]the community feeling. 0:33:50.519,0:33:52.280 But what about inflation? 0:33:52.280,0:33:53.960 As healthy, consuming Belgians, 0:33:53.960,0:33:56.000 wouldn't we want to know[br]if our bread 0:33:56.000,0:33:59.000 will suddenly become[br]three times as expensive? 0:33:59.759,0:34:05.160 It actually has a potentially[br]lowering effect on prices. 0:34:05.160,0:34:10.159 If you provide a basic income,[br]and if that leads to more demand 0:34:10.159,0:34:15.600 for local food or local services,[br]guess what happens? 0:34:15.600,0:34:19.359 They materialise, because people[br]have greater incentive 0:34:19.359,0:34:22.639 to increase the supply[br]of those items. 0:34:22.639,0:34:29.560 That money circulates, and in fact[br]improves the economy of the country 0:34:29.560,0:34:34.920 and, for that matter, the economy[br]of the so called rural areas. 0:34:34.920,0:34:40.280 So you actually help strengthen the[br]local economy, improve job creation, 0:34:40.280,0:34:44.280 and those tend to be[br]import-substituting. 0:34:44.280,0:34:46.360 The money will not disappear, 0:34:46.360,0:34:52.106 like diamonds[br]which have been exported 0:34:52.106,0:34:55.152 out of the country.[br]It's here. 0:34:55.152,0:34:58.080 It leads to more money being generated, 0:34:58.080,0:35:02.200 because production goes up,[br]and tax income goes up, etc. 0:35:02.200,0:35:04.966 So you can actually find 0:35:04.966,0:35:08.282 that using a basic income[br]has a growth potential. 0:35:08.282,0:35:11.160 I don't think we need[br]any more pilots 0:35:11.160,0:35:14.320 to prove what can be done with that. 0:35:14.320,0:35:17.516 Otjivero is basically like a window 0:35:17.516,0:35:20.772 how Namibia could[br]develop what could be done. 0:35:20.772,0:35:25.200 Yes, Namibia can be that example. 0:35:25.200,0:35:30.400 If the leaders just take the courage[br]and the political will, 0:35:30.400,0:35:33.640 Namibia can become[br]that country in the world. 0:35:33.640,0:35:38.640 Suddenly, people are saying: wow,[br]actually for many years we thought 0:35:38.640,0:35:43.200 that it would be impossible to have[br]a basic income in... Africa?! 0:35:43.200,0:35:46.260 Our coalition has made the calculations. 0:35:46.260,0:35:50.040 And we have found that it is feasible 0:35:50.040,0:35:52.680 to implement a b.i.g. [Basic[br]Income Grant] nationally. 0:36:12.000,0:36:14.526 And for Belgium? 0:36:14.526,0:36:16.822 Is it affordable in Belgium? 0:36:16.822,0:36:20.510 It's not affordable. 0:36:20.510,0:36:23.519 Bullshit, there is enough[br]prosperity in this world. 0:36:23.519,0:36:26.640 We all know, nowadays that the 85[br]richest people on this planet 0:36:26.640,0:36:29.719 own as much as the 3.5 billion poorest. 0:36:29.719,0:36:32.509 With a basic income, you can scrap[br]a number of budget items 0:36:32.509,0:36:34.199 from your social protection. 0:36:34.199,0:36:36.800 Income support,[br]for example, disappears. 0:36:36.800,0:36:39.329 I've calculated it,[br]there's about 0:36:39.329,0:36:42.480 12 to 13 billion[br]you can scrap. 0:36:42.480,0:36:46.640 12 to 13 billion,[br]that's not enough. 0:36:46.640,0:36:50.719 And I challenge[br]all proponents of basic income 0:36:50.719,0:36:52.799 to come with a detailed, 0:36:52.799,0:36:57.360 well-founded calculation for basic income. 0:36:58.000,0:37:01.079 Very well, miss Mestrum,[br]these are Pierre Catelin, 0:37:01.079,0:37:03.670 Ismaël Daoud and Axelle De Brandt. 0:37:03.670,0:37:06.600 Axelle and Pierre are therapists[br]and are working on their book 0:37:06.600,0:37:10.359 about the model 'revenue de base XXL'. 0:37:10.359,0:37:14.119 Ismaël is an engineer and worked [br]in his spare time for 6 months 0:37:14.119,0:37:15.439 on a calculation model. 0:37:15.439,0:37:20.000 In his spare time, because for now[br]we don't have a basic income yet 0:37:20.000,0:37:23.000 to be free and innovative citizens. 0:37:23.000,0:37:29.000 Pierre and Axelle's model for basic income[br]is very generous 0:37:29.000,0:37:32.800 so my first reaction was[br]like, it's not feasible. 0:37:32.800,0:37:39.310 But then, I was curious[br]and tried to calculate. 0:37:43.640,0:37:47.320 If basic income is adopted,[br]it will happen here. 0:37:47.320,0:37:53.200 Our MPs will have less power[br]if they vote for this, it takes courage. 0:38:00.120,0:38:04.480 He we are in the chamber of the[br]federal parliament of Belgium. 0:38:04.480,0:38:08.760 Recently they voted for the[br]6th reform of the State, 0:38:08.760,0:38:11.590 which transfers competences 0:38:11.590,0:38:14.440 from the federal level[br]towards regions and communities. 0:38:14.440,0:38:16.560 But we forgot about the citizens. 0:38:16.560,0:38:22.200 We had to organise a competence switch[br]from public administrators to the citizens 0:38:22.200,0:38:26.320 therefore we need a 7th reform[br]of the State that does just that. 0:38:27.480,0:38:31.920 In my job 0:38:31.920,0:38:35.600 I help people reorganise their lives. 0:38:35.600,0:38:41.066 And what people[br]often tell me is, 0:38:41.066,0:38:43.300 they need more money[br]and more time. 0:38:43.300,0:38:46.439 It's quantified as follows, 0:38:46.439,0:38:49.540 in billions of francs. 0:38:50.080,0:38:54.000 We need 187 billion euros[br]to pay a basic income 0:38:54.000,0:38:58.400 of 1500 Euros[br]to every adult, lifelong, 0:38:58.400,0:39:00.319 and also 200 euros to each child 0:39:00.319,0:39:05.700 plus all personal insurances,[br]paid by the government. 0:39:05.700,0:39:09.399 We have recalculated it all,[br]and figures look correct. 0:39:09.399,0:39:12.000 But isn't all of this,[br]a bit too generous? 0:39:13.240,0:39:17.440 If the sums were lower,[br]I'm afraid 0:39:17.440,0:39:20.520 we would ignore the potential[br]of the system: 0:39:20.520,0:39:22.800 getting more freedom. 0:39:22.800,0:39:28.160 Firstly there are government expenditures[br]that become superfluous, 0:39:28.160,0:39:31.800 because they are replaced. 0:39:31.800,0:39:37.120 The state won't need to spend[br]41 billion on pensions anymore 0:39:37.120,0:39:40.680 because basic income[br]is itself a sort of pension. 0:39:40.680,0:39:43.800 Unemployment benefits[br]would also become redundant 0:39:43.800,0:39:47.400 because in this system[br]there is no unemployment. 0:39:47.400,0:39:50.480 Whether you work or not,[br]you get 1500 euros per month. 0:39:51.000,0:39:53.359 A whole range of things like benefits 0:39:53.359,0:39:55.400 and pensions can be replaced, 0:39:55.400,0:39:58.320 thus saving about 71 billion, 0:39:58.320,0:40:02.160 but we still need to find 116.7 billion. 0:40:02.160,0:40:05.400 By a sound rationalisation[br]of public administration, 0:40:05.400,0:40:10.080 Ishmael finds another 25 billion. 0:40:10.080,0:40:15.400 The third part consists of[br]extra revenues from a tax shift. 0:40:15.400,0:40:20.160 It will focus on those who are[br]now undertaxed. 0:40:20.160,0:40:23.760 In Belgium capital is[br]taxed at 6 percent, 0:40:23.760,0:40:28.440 Labour is taxed at 43 percent,[br]that's a big difference. 0:40:28.440,0:40:34.280 The idea is to increase taxes on capital,[br]movable or immovable goods. 0:40:34.280,0:40:40.200 Then you can reduce taxes on labour. 0:40:40.200,0:40:43.840 So you get a more balanced system 0:40:43.840,0:40:46.960 where people do not have[br]to protest in the streets, 0:40:46.960,0:40:50.000 because they feel[br]they have contributed enough. 0:40:50.000,0:40:54.320 We consider it a noble contribution. 0:40:54.320,0:40:57.120 It offers a wide margin in society. 0:40:57.120,0:40:59.960 When people now hear[br]the word 'contribution', 0:40:59.960,0:41:04.480 they think it's a swindle.[br]That is not the goal. 0:41:04.480,0:41:08.120 There should be[br]a differentiated VAT system: 0:41:08.120,0:41:12.480 higher for luxury goods,[br]lower for basic goods. 0:41:12.480,0:41:16.960 But the average VAT should be[br]around 25 percent. 0:41:16.960,0:41:20.960 That provides another 16 billion euros. 0:41:21.000,0:41:25.200 By an average increase of VAT to 25%, 0:41:25.200,0:41:30.160 and other shifts on taxes and charges,[br]we arrive at 95.4 billion. 0:41:30.160,0:41:32.480 That brings us to a positive balance. 0:41:32.480,0:41:36.519 This model results in a profit of more[br]than 4 billion for the government. 0:41:37.519,0:41:40.549 Namibia showed us how[br]purchase power can rise. 0:41:40.549,0:41:42.679 But an exact projection[br]of the spending power 0:41:42.679,0:41:45.280 isn't possible with this static model. 0:41:45.280,0:41:47.000 They also consider, however, 0:41:47.000,0:41:49.600 residual earnings and cost of government. 0:41:49.600,0:41:53.920 The price of the launch[br]of the basic income is 0 euro, 0:41:53.920,0:41:57.520 provided that some public[br]enterprises are privatized. 0:41:57.520,0:42:01.250 Dear Pierre, Ishmael and Axelle,[br]are you really sure of this model? 0:42:02.200,0:42:03.640 Yes,[br]- Absolutely. 0:42:03.640,0:42:05.640 In fact it will[br]generate savings 0:42:05.640,0:42:08.600 without deterioration of[br]public services. 0:42:08.600,0:42:12.000 Because this way,[br]the system is much simpler. 0:42:12.000,0:42:16.200 You actually begins with a clean slate. 0:42:16.200,0:42:21.160 There are no poltical[br]a prioris or ideologies. 0:42:21.000,0:42:23.919 Again, why should you do it? 0:42:23.919,0:42:27.440 Why should you give basic income[br]to rich people? 0:42:27.440,0:42:30.000 Can somebody kindly answer[br]this simple question? 0:42:30.280,0:42:34.880 Basic income is for everyone,[br]that's the difference. 0:42:34.880,0:42:40.880 Some people do not realise[br]that excluding rich people 0:42:40.880,0:42:44.280 is still excluding people. 0:42:44.280,0:42:48.960 A basic income excludes no one,[br]it is not a class struggle. 0:42:48.960,0:42:50.720 It is about the human. 0:42:50.500,0:42:53.000 That problem has been solved as well. 0:42:53.000,0:42:55.990 (Applause) 0:42:55.990,0:42:59.360 Politicians are afraid[br]that if you empower people too much, 0:42:59.360,0:43:03.840 they stand up and demand things[br]and then they become empowered citizens. 0:43:03.840,0:43:06.160 And I think, politicians[br]are afraid of that. 0:43:06.160,0:43:09.360 Because in Otjivero you could see[br]this empowerment process. 0:43:09.360,0:43:11.656 They people can tell their own stories, 0:43:11.656,0:43:14.562 they even demanded the President[br]to come out and say, 0:43:14.562,0:43:17.360 if you still have doubts about[br]the basic income grant, 0:43:17.360,0:43:20.400 why don't you then come[br]to Otjivero and discuss with us? 0:43:20.400,0:43:25.320 It is not that it isn't[br]spoken about in politics. 0:43:25.320,0:43:31.600 A lot of politicians in Germany, Switzer-[br]land and Canada are talking about it. 0:43:31.600,0:43:34.880 In a short term, it will be[br]on the political agenda. 0:43:35.000,0:43:37.680 One of the problems with basic income 0:43:37.680,0:43:44.720 is that within each party there are[br]both proponents and opponents 0:43:44.720,0:43:50.640 and sometimes you find very[br]emotional proponents and opponents 0:43:50.640,0:43:53.379 and that in fact makes it difficult[br]to move forward. 0:43:53.379,0:43:57.180 Because it is difficult for a party[br]to find enough unity within itself 0:43:57.180,0:43:59.280 to effectively promote the idea. 0:43:59.280,0:44:01.480 To me, it also proves that it is an idea 0:44:01.480,0:44:03.640 of the future and not of the past, 0:44:03.640,0:44:06.720 because this left-right[br]polarisation is an illusion. 0:44:06.720,0:44:12.286 It stems from our parliamentary system[br]that dates from the 19th century. 0:44:12.286,0:44:17.592 The only Belgian party with[br]basic income in its program 0:44:17.592,0:44:20.000 is the Pirate Party. 0:44:27.840,0:44:30.920 Basic Income Now, is their message. 0:44:30.920,0:44:35.309 There is no discussion[br]about another economic paradigm 0:44:35.309,0:44:37.880 or another way to construct[br]the welfare state, 0:44:37.880,0:44:40.110 because we're stuck in,[br]'this is what we have now' 0:44:40.110,0:44:41.879 and we don't dare to break away from that, 0:44:41.879,0:44:44.280 we must bind our voters to us 0:44:44.280,0:44:47.079 and satisfy them[br]and they don't believe in it. 0:44:47.079,0:44:52.400 Every new party, especially a party[br]with refreshing and good ideas, 0:44:52.400,0:44:57.809 is more dangerous than an idiot[br]talking some bullshit. 0:44:57.809,0:45:01.239 We were a very dangerous party in that way 0:45:03.366,0:45:04.210 because we certainly had a strong image, 0:45:04.210,0:45:06.120 we were well prepared. 0:45:06.120,0:45:11.380 Duchatelet came up with a clear[br]proposal for basic income in the late 90s. 0:45:11.380,0:45:13.579 with his party Vivant. 0:45:13.579,0:45:15.909 We got a lot of votes, by the way. 0:45:15.909,0:45:19.840 In 1999 we got 1 in 40 votes. For a party 0:45:19.840,0:45:23.850 that barely got any TV coverage,[br]that's a great result. 0:45:23.850,0:45:27.000 So after the national elections 0:45:27.000,0:45:29.259 they immediately introduced[br]an electoral threshold, 0:45:29.259,0:45:32.526 to make sure that next time[br]we wouldn't be successful. 0:45:53.176,0:45:57.453 For the benefit of the rich[br]employees must retreat. 0:45:57.453,0:46:01.320 It is becoming extremely urgent 0:46:01.320,0:46:04.840 that we need a new progressive[br]politics of redistribution 0:46:04.840,0:46:07.800 and a new system[br]of income distribution 0:46:07.800,0:46:11.480 in which people have[br]the right to basic security 0:46:11.480,0:46:14.400 to exist as a human being[br]in modern society. 0:46:14.400,0:46:17.120 If basic income is not part 0:46:17.120,0:46:19.440 of that progressive strategy, 0:46:19.440,0:46:21.136 then I think we are entitled 0:46:21.136,0:46:23.587 to be very alarmed[br]about what's happening. 0:46:23.587,0:46:28.488 Therefore, it is important that this[br]utopia, this dream, gives people hope 0:46:28.490,0:46:31.040 and gives people the message, 0:46:31.040,0:46:34.400 it's not wrong to be[br]optimistic and hopeful. 0:46:34.400,0:46:37.240 'Be outraged, be committed' 0:46:37.240,0:46:40.079 he says, and I completely agree with that. 0:46:40.079,0:46:44.640 Think about your world, your[br]existence, your job, your life 0:46:44.640,0:46:48.519 and try from there to mean[br]something in the world, 0:46:48.519,0:46:52.109 and don't wait[br]until some great leader 0:46:52.109,0:46:53.930 says from above, that's the way to act. 0:46:53.930,0:46:59.480 If we allow our societies[br]to become more and more unequal, 0:46:59.480,0:47:03.920 and more and more prone to insecurity[br]for masses of people, 0:47:03.920,0:47:05.920 then it will be scary. 0:47:30.000,0:47:34.120 A society with fewer insecure[br]and angry people: 0:47:34.120,0:47:37.519 could a basic income really achieve this? 0:47:37.519,0:47:40.599 Basic income also poses new questions: 0:47:40.599,0:47:43.039 what will happen to migration, 0:47:43.039,0:47:45.960 if basic income only[br]exists in Belgium? 0:47:45.960,0:47:48.600 Isn't the implementation required[br]at a European level 0:47:48.600,0:47:51.519 or even to be studied globally? 0:47:51.519,0:47:55.120 Will we only then be talking about a real utopia? 0:47:55.120,0:48:03.079 Yes, I will tell you,[br]it's unthinkable not to do it. 0:48:03.079,0:48:08.880 Yes, because only 8% of the people[br]are producing everything we need. 0:48:08.880,0:48:15.159 And the other 92%, do we need[br]to invent jobs for them 0:48:15.159,0:48:18.539 In some administration[br]in order to give them money? 0:48:18.539,0:48:20.350 No, just give money to everyone. 0:48:20.360,0:48:26.360 People are scared[br]of the Basic Income Grant, 0:48:26.360,0:48:32.520 because it does not stop of giving[br]100 Namibian dollars to poor Namibians. 0:48:32.520,0:48:35.200 But it touches many, many questions. 0:48:35.200,0:48:39.600 The thing is, that when any new idea, 0:48:39.600,0:48:44.160 or any idea that, confronting[br]all problems, comes up, 0:48:44.160,0:48:49.000 the biggest challenge for people[br]is to open their minds. 0:49:22.520,0:49:26.640 It's my life.[br]It's not my job, it's my life. 0:49:59.000,0:50:03.480 Admittedly, something to talk[br]about during upcoming family dinners. 0:50:04.960,0:50:07.080 If you are looking[br]for additional arguments, 0:50:07.080,0:50:09.759 on our Facebook page[br]you will find more information 0:50:09.759,0:50:14.119 about the financing model proposed [br]by Ismaël, Pierre en Axelle. 0:50:14.119,0:50:17.320 And for those who still consider[br]basic income a stupid idea... 0:50:17.320,0:50:21.779 the right to vote for women was also[br]considered a stupid idea not so long ago. 0:50:22.679,0:50:26.879 Wishing you happy holidays 0:50:26.879,0:50:29.800 and a new year[br]with only pleasant surprises 0:50:29.800,0:50:34.200 I hope to see you back for a new Panorama[br]on Thursday 8th January. 0:50:34.200,0:50:36.200 Thank you for watching.