0:00:09.403,0:00:11.057
Well, how should I...?

0:00:14.272,0:00:17.384
I don't actually think I've ever given a talk on the history of Mozilla

0:00:17.384,0:00:20.497
to a large set of people, which is pretty shocking...

0:00:20.497,0:00:21.674
Ok! So...

0:00:21.674,0:00:23.274
I'm gonna give it a try.

0:00:24.926,0:00:27.138
I'm not sure if I've actually given a talk

0:00:27.138,0:00:29.084
on the history of Mozilla to this many people.

0:00:29.084,0:00:33.019
So that's probably an indication that I need to do more of it.

0:00:33.849,0:00:37.956
Mozilla's been around for a long time, since 1998.

0:00:38.788,0:00:41.092
And I thought when we got started...

0:00:41.092,0:00:42.392
I'd like to ask:

0:00:42.392,0:00:43.800
Of the people here,

0:00:43.800,0:00:47.116
how many have been in Mozilla for three months or less?

0:00:47.116,0:00:48.772
Can you raise your hand?

0:00:48.772,0:00:50.426
Ok, excellent.

0:00:51.888,0:00:54.653
How many have been here a year or so?

0:00:55.530,0:00:57.468
That's a pretty good group too.

0:00:57.539,0:00:59.231
Ok, how about the five year?

0:01:00.144,0:01:02.788
Pretty good and I'm gonna say the ten year.

0:01:02.788,0:01:05.101
How many people? Who's around, though?

0:01:05.170,0:01:11.372
One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine...

0:01:12.278,0:01:15.280
So there's nine people in this room that have been working on Mozilla

0:01:15.280,0:01:16.580
for ten years and more.

0:01:16.580,0:01:19.675
And there's probably another nine or ten people in this gathering today

0:01:19.675,0:01:22.091
who have been here that long as well.

0:01:22.091,0:01:26.874
And so I'm gonna explain the different roles that we had in the early days.

0:01:26.874,0:01:30.682
I'll try to name some names as we go along, I won't get all of those names,

0:01:30.682,0:01:35.140
but if you see this people and have questions about Mozilla or Mozilla's history,

0:01:35.140,0:01:39.343
find a good time and ask them, because we all have many memories.

0:01:40.436,0:01:44.730
So, Mozilla started in 1998. It came out of Netscape.

0:01:45.436,0:01:49.754
Netscape at one time had been the almost monopoly browser vendor.

0:01:49.754,0:01:52.404
It was the first commercial browser,

0:01:52.404,0:01:56.557
so we had, I don't know, 99% of the market share at one time.

0:01:57.294,0:02:00.127
And it was a pretty exciting time.

0:02:00.127,0:02:03.613
That was when the Internet and the Web actually really exploded.

0:02:03.613,0:02:07.556
Microsoft appeared. They started building its own browser.

0:02:07.556,0:02:11.696
Microsoft did a couple of things that ended up eventually building a good browser.

0:02:11.765,0:02:17.382
And it also engaged in a whole range of illegal activities.

0:02:17.528,0:02:20.297
And so the combination of that changed the landscape drammatically.

0:02:20.297,0:02:25.560
And Netscape management had the foresight to recognise they could not continue

0:02:25.560,0:02:28.971
and be successful in the way they had been operating.

0:02:29.072,0:02:33.794
And they realised with the help of the engineering folk set at Netscape

0:02:34.041,0:02:41.457
that the best opportunity was to convert their typical proprietary closed commercial product

0:02:41.457,0:02:44.096
into an open source product.

0:02:44.150,0:02:46.180
This was radical in its day.

0:02:46.938,0:02:49.946
Open source is mainstream now, but it was not then.

0:02:50.562,0:02:53.747
Open source was deep in the technical community,

0:02:53.747,0:02:55.232
it never surfaced in a product,

0:02:55.232,0:02:56.863
it was all sort of odd

0:02:57.204,0:02:59.792
and it was a very radical move.

0:03:00.066,0:03:02.895
The second thing that happened is that the management team,

0:03:02.895,0:03:04.595
I was there at the time,

0:03:04.595,0:03:05.665
a lot of us were,

0:03:05.665,0:03:08.075
but I was part of these discussions,

0:03:09.074,0:03:12.672
realised that an open source project had to be real.

0:03:13.256,0:03:17.788
So, inside Netscape there was created a small group of people

0:03:17.788,0:03:23.182
who were charged with the job of building a successful open source project.

0:03:23.891,0:03:27.356
And there was a larger group of people, engineering,

0:03:27.356,0:03:31.226
that was charged with building a successful Netscape product.

0:03:31.226,0:03:34.606
That Netscape product was designed to make money for Netscape

0:03:34.693,0:03:38.832
and ultimately money for AOL, after AOL bought Netscape.

0:03:38.997,0:03:43.625
So, in the very early days of Mozilla, through '98, '99, 2000,

0:03:43.625,0:03:45.502
we had these two different groups.

0:03:45.594,0:03:49.060
We had the engineering group, which was a 100-150 people

0:03:49.060,0:03:52.419
working on building the Netscape navigator product

0:03:52.419,0:03:57.052
managed by a set of people wanting to use that product to make money for AOL.

0:03:57.651,0:04:02.482
Then we had the small group of people who were charged with building Mozilla

0:04:02.482,0:04:04.497
as an open source project,

0:04:04.497,0:04:07.900
building contributors from all sorts of different places

0:04:07.900,0:04:12.641
and building a technology base that was useful for many different companies.

0:04:12.762,0:04:14.732
The open source side.

0:04:14.787,0:04:17.085
That was small in name.

0:04:17.339,0:04:20.258
There were six or eight of us.

0:04:20.282,0:04:22.372
Of those, Mick was one of them,

0:04:22.372,0:04:23.472
Gerv was one of them,

0:04:23.472,0:04:24.434
Dan was one of them,

0:04:24.434,0:04:25.308
Brendan was one of them,

0:04:25.308,0:04:26.454
I was one of them,

0:04:26.454,0:04:29.722
Shaver was one of them and there was a few of other folks

0:04:29.722,0:04:32.037
who aren't here any longer.

0:04:32.698,0:04:35.637
That was one group, then we had this very large engineering group

0:04:35.637,0:04:37.898
building the Netscape navigator product.

0:04:37.898,0:04:39.910
And in there Chofmann was there,

0:04:39.910,0:04:41.165
Johnny was there,

0:04:41.226,0:04:42.541
Jonas was there,

0:04:42.541,0:04:44.326
Dbaron was there...

0:04:44.512,0:04:47.071
Dbaron came actually a little later.

0:04:47.071,0:04:49.455
But there is a bunch of people here in that engineering group.

0:04:49.539,0:04:51.239
That went on for a little while

0:04:51.239,0:04:53.989
and it turned out to be not stable.

0:04:54.806,0:04:59.153
It turned out that the efforts of the Netscape management group

0:04:59.153,0:05:02.030
to build the product to make money for them

0:05:02.030,0:05:05.505
came into conflict with how we wanted to manage the code base

0:05:05.640,0:05:07.935
as a Mozilla open source project.

0:05:08.056,0:05:10.969
That conflict simmered for a while

0:05:12.076,0:05:14.436
and eventually it exploded.

0:05:16.616,0:05:19.963
Yes, please feel free to ask questions at any point.

0:05:21.771,0:05:22.432
[Question]

0:05:24.697,0:05:29.158
No, it turned out there are lots of ways to build a browser that makes money

0:05:29.971,0:05:31.725
that people don't like.

0:05:31.834,0:05:35.660
So in those days, Netscape had been acquired by AOL

0:05:35.735,0:05:38.811
and AOL was a website property.

0:05:38.811,0:05:40.869
So to that management team,

0:05:40.869,0:05:44.313
the browser was a tool to drive people to the AOL website.

0:05:45.547,0:05:49.343
You can do that, but it doesn't mean you like the product.

0:05:50.021,0:05:53.981
You can add user interface features to it,

0:05:53.981,0:05:57.124
you can focus on new buttons and menu items

0:05:57.124,0:05:59.462
that in those cases were AOL specific,

0:05:59.462,0:06:00.992
you can put your resources there

0:06:00.992,0:06:03.457
rather than on security and new features,

0:06:03.626,0:06:05.910
you might not be interested in features

0:06:05.910,0:06:08.410
that help people find things across the web,

0:06:08.410,0:06:11.031
because AOL wanted them going to AOL.

0:06:11.162,0:06:14.143
So we found that there were immense conflicts

0:06:14.243,0:06:16.852
and also, in an open source project,

0:06:16.952,0:06:22.286
you have contributors who have an "ownership stake",

0:06:22.498,0:06:26.210
meaning that they put effort in, they are building a product,

0:06:26.210,0:06:28.225
if they are using the product they have a set of needs

0:06:28.225,0:06:29.825
that might be different.

0:06:30.315,0:06:32.309
As part of the open source project

0:06:32.309,0:06:35.204
we were balancing the needs of our employers, Netscape,

0:06:35.204,0:06:36.728
with various other people.

0:06:36.987,0:06:38.618
And eventually,

0:06:42.070,0:06:43.301
that broke down.

0:06:43.537,0:06:47.063
So for example, we'll take user interface

0:06:47.063,0:06:50.126
which is always a contentious issue in a product.

0:06:50.126,0:06:52.201
The single most contentious issue,

0:06:52.201,0:06:54.740
way back in 1999 and 2000,

0:06:54.740,0:06:56.263
was user interface,

0:06:56.907,0:06:59.788
because Netscape would want a user interface

0:06:59.788,0:07:01.564
that drove people to AOL

0:07:01.564,0:07:05.908
and Mozilla wanted an interface that was good for people using the Web.

0:07:11.087,0:07:14.059
I was the General Manager of the small group of people

0:07:14.059,0:07:17.371
building Mozilla as an open source project.

0:07:17.371,0:07:21.194
In those days we called ourselves staff@mozilla.org

0:07:21.194,0:07:23.102
or mozilla.org staff.

0:07:26.724,0:07:29.515
When the tension exploded over the interface,

0:07:30.346,0:07:32.618
over really who controlled the code,

0:07:32.618,0:07:37.263
we had long fights about what would the basic process is

0:07:37.263,0:07:39.422
by which we build the product.

0:07:40.022,0:07:42.418
So things we take for granted today,

0:07:42.418,0:07:45.444
like you have to earn the right to be a committer,

0:07:45.951,0:07:48.208
we fought with Netscape over that.

0:07:48.292,0:07:51.443
Things like code needs code review,

0:07:51.502,0:07:53.310
it has to be good enough;

0:07:53.310,0:07:55.367
that being hired as an employee

0:07:55.367,0:07:58.061
doesn't automatically make your code good enough;

0:07:58.061,0:08:00.406
that even after you are hired as an employee

0:08:00.406,0:08:04.524
your peers need to decide your code is good enough.

0:08:04.524,0:08:08.942
So basic things like code review were immense fights.

0:08:09.849,0:08:13.215
I was the representative of Mozilla

0:08:13.367,0:08:16.790
and when those tensions came to a head,

0:08:16.928,0:08:18.020
I was fired.

0:08:19.080,0:08:19.587
Yes.

0:08:20.149,0:08:23.424
Was Mozilla the open source browser in those days?

0:08:25.662,0:08:29.670
Mozilla was in those days a technol..

0:08:30.746,0:08:35.924
Sorry, the question was "Was Mozilla the open source browser in those days?"

0:08:37.713,0:08:43.571
Mozilla in those days was seen as a technology development organisation.

0:08:44.773,0:08:47.875
And Netscape liked to think that it was building the browser.

0:08:48.447,0:08:50.040
[Question]

0:08:58.182,0:09:00.297
Did everyone hear Dan?

0:09:00.297,0:09:02.748
The initial theory was like the Linux kernel,

0:09:02.748,0:09:06.227
where Mozilla would be the technology development asset

0:09:06.227,0:09:07.388
that builds the kernel

0:09:07.388,0:09:10.444
and other organisation would build the commercial products from it.

0:09:16.213,0:09:19.132
So we had this ongoing tensions

0:09:21.754,0:09:25.484
and one of them was Mozilla was becoming a product

0:09:25.484,0:09:26.761
in its own right.

0:09:27.190,0:09:30.392
It turned out that as the Netscape and AOL management

0:09:30.392,0:09:35.055
began building their product to drive traffic to AOL,

0:09:35.055,0:09:38.239
more people started using the Mozilla version

0:09:38.239,0:09:40.024
than the Netscape version.

0:09:41.103,0:09:43.788
That was going on in the background

0:09:46.224,0:09:47.863
and let to some of these tensions.

0:09:47.863,0:09:49.424
So I was fired

0:09:49.424,0:09:52.682
and the belief at Netscape at the time

0:09:52.682,0:09:54.521
was that by getting rid of me,

0:09:54.521,0:09:57.124
Netscape management would then have the ability

0:09:57.124,0:09:59.431
to control the Mozilla open source project

0:09:59.431,0:10:04.059
and could convert it into a set of people that helped Netscape

0:10:04.059,0:10:05.829
build the product that they wanted.

0:10:06.276,0:10:09.741
Essentially, to view the community as a free work force

0:10:09.741,0:10:12.504
that would help build the Netscape product.

0:10:13.335,0:10:18.673
Of course, the competing view is that we're all building an open source project

0:10:18.673,0:10:21.288
that has to meet the needs of the community

0:10:21.288,0:10:23.782
and that people who contribute and build the product

0:10:23.782,0:10:25.443
have some say in what happens to it.

0:10:29.604,0:10:36.367
What happened at that point was that the two groups of people,

0:10:36.367,0:10:40.314
the small group of people that had been mozilla.org staff

0:10:40.314,0:10:43.890
and the larger group of people which were all the engineers

0:10:43.890,0:10:45.843
contributing to Mozilla

0:10:46.584,0:10:49.594
reunited to form one shared outlook.

0:10:50.935,0:10:54.540
What happened was that essentially the engineers working at Netscape

0:10:54.540,0:10:58.788
were very clear that the leadership that they were following was Mozilla.

0:10:58.811,0:10:59.996
And it was me.

0:11:00.116,0:11:02.396
And it was not their management.

0:11:03.380,0:11:06.839
So, everyone involved voted to continue to try to build

0:11:06.839,0:11:08.031
an open source project.

0:11:08.031,0:11:10.987
So I remained the General Manager of Mozilla.

0:11:10.987,0:11:13.231
I remained the leader of the Mozilla project

0:11:13.231,0:11:17.459
and the spokesperson for the development of the Mozilla project,

0:11:17.459,0:11:20.732
much to the surprise of the Netscape and AOL management.

0:11:22.133,0:11:24.732
We learned a lot of lessons out of that.

0:11:24.732,0:11:29.075
We learned from that that leadership depends on who will follow you.

0:11:30.152,0:11:32.260
You need to lead people.

0:11:33.728,0:11:37.822
My own view is that you have to be leading in the right direction

0:11:37.973,0:11:39.766
enough of the time,

0:11:39.797,0:11:45.700
that enough people follow or enough people also lead in that direction.

0:11:48.277,0:11:49.277
[Question]

0:11:50.464,0:11:56.042
This would be... I was fired in 2001 and yes...

0:11:58.221,0:11:58.759
Yes.

0:12:03.637,0:12:05.778
Yeah. So that was 2001 when I was fired.

0:12:08.628,0:12:09.459
[Question]

0:12:13.785,0:12:14.431
Yes.

0:12:15.936,0:12:17.436
The question was:

0:12:17.436,0:12:20.176
"The open web is here today it's easy to see why it's important

0:12:20.176,0:12:24.432
back then in those days before the open web, how did you know?

0:12:24.432,0:12:26.494
What makes you willing to risk your job?"

0:12:29.141,0:12:32.033
We'd been working on a browser for a while,

0:12:32.033,0:12:34.819
so we could tell that the browser was important.

0:12:34.819,0:12:42.233
It was clear at that time, when Microsoft had maybe 90-95% market share

0:12:42.233,0:12:46.832
in the browser, in the operating system and in the productivity suites,

0:12:46.832,0:12:48.395
Office and Excel,

0:12:48.395,0:12:51.320
which were the only things that people used in those days.

0:12:51.320,0:12:53.051
And so it was clear

0:12:53.051,0:12:55.020
that in those days,

0:12:55.890,0:12:58.387
Microsoft controlled access to the Internet.

0:12:59.528,0:13:01.925
We didn't call it the open web then but it was the Internet

0:13:01.925,0:13:03.494
and we knew it was great.

0:13:04.789,0:13:08.503
It was very clear that by controlling the browser,

0:13:08.503,0:13:13.526
Microsoft controlled how individual people experienced the Internet.

0:13:14.557,0:13:18.349
That the server side of the Internet in those days

0:13:18.349,0:13:21.846
was developing, growing and becoming richer and more capable.

0:13:21.846,0:13:24.757
But the client side was deteriorating

0:13:24.757,0:13:26.272
and through that client,

0:13:26.272,0:13:29.934
Microsoft was able to ignore formats

0:13:30.517,0:13:35.461
to make vast quantities of content unavailable to people.

0:13:36.475,0:13:38.314
And to determine the business model

0:13:38.314,0:13:40.857
through which you could access content

0:13:40.857,0:13:44.378
and to have an immense influence over the entire structure of the Internet.

0:13:44.510,0:13:46.041
So that much was clear.

0:13:46.118,0:13:49.903
It sounds melodramatic but the future of the Internet

0:13:50.426,0:13:53.511
was already an issue at that point.

0:13:53.511,0:13:56.196
It was very clear the browser was the leverage point.

0:13:56.549,0:13:59.038
We were very clear about our jobs.

0:13:59.038,0:14:01.329
One second, I'm gonna tell a couple of stories

0:14:01.329,0:14:02.798
and then I'll get you Chris.

0:14:02.798,0:14:05.740
But we were very clear that our jobs were on the line.

0:14:05.740,0:14:07.071
It wasn't just me.

0:14:07.071,0:14:08.479
It was everyone I named and Marcia.

0:14:08.479,0:14:09.840
Is Marcia here?

0:14:10.025,0:14:11.294
I didn't see her hand go up.

0:14:11.294,0:14:14.958
But we would have meanings as the small group that was mozilla.org

0:14:15.002,0:14:17.196
when the tensions got really high

0:14:17.196,0:14:18.542
and we would get together

0:14:18.542,0:14:20.042
and we would say things like

0:14:20.042,0:14:23.163
"What happens if AOL pulls the plug?

0:14:23.485,0:14:26.204
What happens if we're all fired tomorrow?

0:14:26.204,0:14:28.581
How do we keep Mozilla operating?"

0:14:29.029,0:14:31.306
Those would be things like...

0:14:32.986,0:14:36.416
Our release engineer at the time

0:14:36.531,0:14:40.392
had the keys to the server room where the Mozilla machines operated.

0:14:41.889,0:14:44.734
These are small details but they were really important at the time

0:14:44.734,0:14:48.517
and we knew that if he could do it

0:14:48.517,0:14:51.655
he would help us keep Mozilla operating

0:14:51.655,0:14:55.323
and we knew that Chofmann was running the engineering organisation

0:14:55.323,0:14:57.755
and we knew that he would be helpful as it turned out,

0:14:57.755,0:14:59.063
we needed him.

0:14:59.395,0:15:05.949
And Marcia had the keys to the closet that was our single supply of Mozilla t-shirts.

0:15:07.913,0:15:10.569
Which I bought with my own money.

0:15:10.569,0:15:12.822
Oh, no. That was later, nevermind. The ones I bought later.

0:15:14.553,0:15:16.253
But she had that key

0:15:16.253,0:15:19.487
and she had access to some other things.

0:15:19.487,0:15:21.996
So we would sit and think how many machines do we need,

0:15:21.996,0:15:23.819
how many employees do we need.

0:15:23.819,0:15:25.503
If we have one employee,

0:15:25.503,0:15:28.079
is it Leef who runs the build machines?

0:15:28.079,0:15:29.487
If we have one employee,

0:15:29.487,0:15:30.564
is it Brendan?

0:15:30.656,0:15:32.118
Who is he?

0:15:32.279,0:15:35.085
And what's the best way to keep Mozilla operating?

0:15:35.900,0:15:39.255
But when it came to it I was the only one who was fired

0:15:39.255,0:15:42.103
and so the rest of the Mozilla folks were left

0:15:42.103,0:15:44.868
and Chofmann provided a haven

0:15:45.143,0:15:48.171
for us to try and continue to be effective as well.

0:15:48.171,0:15:51.137
So this was this first era.

0:15:53.408,0:15:56.824
So after I was fired there were a bunch of people still at Netscape,

0:15:56.824,0:15:58.831
working on Netscape navigator.

0:15:58.831,0:16:03.790
As part of that we finally managed to ship our first product as Mozilla.

0:16:03.790,0:16:05.590
Mozilla 1.0 we called it.

0:16:06.099,0:16:09.371
And this had been a long time in coming.

0:16:09.663,0:16:12.019
That was in 2002.

0:16:12.586,0:16:17.104
We started Mozilla in 1998 and expected to have a product

0:16:17.104,0:16:19.264
very shortly afterwards.

0:16:19.272,0:16:22.291
But it turned out, when we got into it

0:16:22.291,0:16:25.280
that the technology was pretty old.

0:16:25.280,0:16:30.780
Brendan made the decision to really build the new technology base.

0:16:30.932,0:16:33.009
That technology base is Gecko.

0:16:33.671,0:16:37.768
It cost us years to get the rendering engine to a point

0:16:37.768,0:16:40.958
where we could really build a good application on it and ship it.

0:16:40.958,0:16:43.380
We finally did that in 2002.

0:16:43.705,0:16:47.800
It was Mozilla 1.0 and it was technically a good product.

0:16:47.800,0:16:50.772
It was technically a shockingly good product.

0:16:50.772,0:16:54.177
Across the open source space, where people knew it

0:16:54.177,0:16:56.531
they were retelling us they were really shocked

0:16:56.531,0:16:58.208
to how good a product it was.

0:16:58.532,0:17:01.136
But it was not a consumer product.

0:17:01.724,0:17:05.292
It was really built by developers, for developers.

0:17:05.292,0:17:08.094
It didn't have a clear designed aesthetic,

0:17:08.094,0:17:11.763
it didn't have an approach to consumers.

0:17:11.763,0:17:13.694
So it was a very powerful product

0:17:13.694,0:17:17.476
and if you couldn't figure out what was really the best user experience

0:17:17.476,0:17:19.666
you'd build both and have a pref for it.

0:17:19.828,0:17:24.504
It was known as loaded and overweight

0:17:24.504,0:17:27.629
and technically good, but a poor product.

0:17:27.629,0:17:29.368
That was 2002.

0:17:29.754,0:17:31.569
About a year later,

0:17:31.923,0:17:35.402
AOL decided they were tired of investing in the browser.

0:17:35.402,0:17:37.087
They still had, I don't know,

0:17:37.087,0:17:40.990
75 or a 150 people they were paying to work on the browser

0:17:40.990,0:17:42.952
and they weren't really getting anywhere with it.

0:17:42.952,0:17:49.488
At long last, they became interested in taking mozilla.org assets

0:17:49.488,0:17:54.294
and giving them to those of us who'd been running the project.

0:17:55.293,0:17:59.812
Again, to give you a sense of what life was like in those days,

0:17:59.812,0:18:02.491
mozilla.org assets were

0:18:02.491,0:18:06.214
the trademark, the name, mozilla.org,

0:18:07.834,0:18:14.077
four big servers we fought for that ran all mozilla.org

0:18:17.573,0:18:20.223
and some seed startup money.

0:18:20.261,0:18:21.661
That was really it.

0:18:22.405,0:18:23.451
Yeah, Mick.

0:18:23.919,0:18:25.212
[Question]

0:18:36.769,0:18:38.938
That's definitely the timing.

0:18:39.338,0:18:42.081
Yes, so that was why it may well have been.

0:18:42.434,0:18:44.767
What Mick said was

0:18:44.767,0:18:50.387
"wasn't it the case that the reason AOL stopped investing in browsers

0:18:50.387,0:18:55.293
and in Gecko is that they just completed a deal with Microsoft

0:18:55.293,0:18:57.866
where they had agreed to use IE

0:18:57.866,0:19:02.914
or the Microsoft rendering engine in their browser."

0:19:02.914,0:19:04.360
Is that right?

0:19:05.247,0:19:09.001
Yes, that's right. The AOL client, that I forgotten about.

0:19:09.001,0:19:17.307
So Microsoft managed to buy AOL out of their own browser effort.

0:19:19.173,0:19:20.658
But it was good for us.

0:19:20.658,0:19:23.075
Because that didn't seem like a lot of assets,

0:19:23.075,0:19:25.329
but it was really critical to us.

0:19:25.437,0:19:30.986
We had thought before about starting our own effort at mozilla.org

0:19:30.986,0:19:32.517
but without the name,

0:19:32.517,0:19:34.647
it would have been really hard.

0:19:34.647,0:19:37.910
And four giant servers doesn't seem like much today,

0:19:37.910,0:19:39.795
but in that era it was a big deal.

0:19:39.795,0:19:42.336
We also got some seed money from them,

0:19:42.336,0:19:44.403
we got 2 million dollars.

0:19:44.618,0:19:47.073
That was a funny story too because

0:19:47.073,0:19:49.481
I had ended up working with Mitch Kapor,

0:19:49.664,0:19:52.506
I don't know if you know, from Lotus,

0:19:52.506,0:19:54.544
those who remember Lotus 1-2-3,

0:19:54.544,0:19:57.693
and Mitch had come to see that open source was really important,

0:19:57.693,0:20:00.806
after he left Lotus and he had his own open source organisation,

0:20:00.806,0:20:02.675
and I was working with him.

0:20:02.675,0:20:05.479
And he really stepped in to help us.

0:20:05.479,0:20:10.641
So Mozilla has a history of things appearing when we need them.

0:20:10.949,0:20:14.225
There is that saying that is it luck,

0:20:14.225,0:20:16.256
or is it effort, or is it skill.

0:20:16.279,0:20:19.906
And Mozilla has been blessed with all three:

0:20:19.906,0:20:24.814
immense effort, tremendous skill and this luck that things appear.

0:20:24.814,0:20:29.953
So, Mitch appeared and he essentially arm wrestled AOL

0:20:29.953,0:20:31.968
for that seed money.

0:20:32.203,0:20:34.860
We look at the 2 million dollars

0:20:34.860,0:20:37.107
and we thought that we could support maybe 10 people

0:20:37.107,0:20:38.261
for two years.

0:20:38.391,0:20:40.912
Because we had set down as mozilla.org

0:20:40.912,0:20:43.297
and thought that to be effective as a project,

0:20:43.297,0:20:45.990
the minimum number of people we needed was 10.

0:20:45.990,0:20:48.265
Running the machines was one person.

0:20:48.265,0:20:51.346
You know, we keep the project alive but we couldn't be successful.

0:20:51.346,0:20:54.165
And Mitch had pitched a little bit of other money

0:20:54.165,0:20:57.369
and IBM and Sun were our first commercial partners

0:20:57.369,0:21:01.254
and they pitched in some money and started maybe with 12 or 13 employees.

0:21:01.254,0:21:02.946
What that meant was:

0:21:04.339,0:21:06.710
Johnny Stenback and D Baron,

0:21:06.710,0:21:08.756
that was the platform team.

0:21:09.090,0:21:12.166
One person on Firefox for the front-end team,

0:21:12.166,0:21:13.774
one person on Thunderbird,

0:21:13.774,0:21:15.459
one release engineer,

0:21:15.459,0:21:17.343
Chofmann as an engineering manager,

0:21:17.343,0:21:21.347
Mick did the ultimate sacrifice and ran our systems for us,

0:21:21.347,0:21:25.590
for a year or two before we were able to get him back

0:21:25.590,0:21:28.018
into a role that really fit him better,

0:21:28.018,0:21:33.018
we had one person helping us on sustainability,

0:21:33.018,0:21:35.138
Brendan as Brendan,

0:21:35.138,0:21:37.383
and me trying to be successful.

0:21:37.383,0:21:38.914
And that was it.

0:21:38.914,0:21:41.060
And that seemed like a lot to us.

0:21:41.106,0:21:41.667
[Question]

0:21:41.714,0:21:43.839
That's right, I forgot Asa

0:21:43.839,0:21:45.685
How can I forget Asa?

0:21:46.211,0:21:47.303
[Question]

0:21:49.761,0:21:51.589
And project management.

0:21:52.265,0:21:53.388
And still.

0:21:53.857,0:21:56.192
From that day till now, phenomenal.

0:21:56.192,0:21:59.954
Whenever I have a problem with my browser, Asa is always able

0:21:59.954,0:22:01.731
to figure out what it is.

0:22:01.731,0:22:02.662
So that's it.

0:22:02.662,0:22:04.485
No one else can ever do that.

0:22:04.485,0:22:05.270
[Question]

0:22:13.170,0:22:16.687
All of a sudden, we had our own independence.

0:22:17.365,0:22:19.411
It was pretty scary,

0:22:19.943,0:22:21.936
10 people is not really enough,

0:22:21.936,0:22:27.091
there was no ongoing financial sustainability that we knew of,

0:22:27.091,0:22:28.691
it was a gamble,

0:22:28.845,0:22:32.547
but we had our own independence and we could make a product.

0:22:33.607,0:22:37.462
We made phenomenal changes in that period.

0:22:37.462,0:22:40.729
It was our second set of phenomenal changes.

0:22:40.729,0:22:45.295
When we were founded we made up an organisation that was revolutionary,

0:22:45.295,0:22:46.933
as Chofmann described.

0:22:46.933,0:22:48.418
How do you work with a company?

0:22:48.418,0:22:49.979
How did we do code review?

0:22:49.979,0:22:51.418
How did you earn your authority?

0:22:51.418,0:22:53.518
There was nothing quite like it before.

0:22:53.518,0:22:55.728
When we started the foundation

0:22:55.728,0:22:59.164
we remade ourselves over again.

0:22:59.164,0:23:02.192
We were, as I said, a small number of people,

0:23:02.323,0:23:06.882
we made a bet on a new product that was Firefox.

0:23:07.018,0:23:10.025
We didn't have a product to ship at that time.

0:23:10.140,0:23:13.158
And Asa with our community involvement

0:23:13.158,0:23:15.467
continued to ship the Mozilla suite

0:23:15.467,0:23:16.813
for fifteen months,

0:23:16.813,0:23:18.609
as the only product we had in the marketplace

0:23:18.609,0:23:20.417
until Firefox was ready.

0:23:20.417,0:23:23.406
We made that bet, which is a scary bet.

0:23:23.406,0:23:25.542
Imagine not to have a browser,

0:23:25.542,0:23:29.420
I mean we didn't have a person working on the product we were shipping.

0:23:30.533,0:23:34.830
But we did that because we knew that Firefox was our opportunity

0:23:34.830,0:23:36.738
to make a commercial product.

0:23:37.895,0:23:42.632
Our first five or six years of life taught us that technology alone

0:23:42.632,0:23:46.835
will not change the industry the way we want to.

0:23:47.064,0:23:52.120
Technology alone does not change people's lives the way we want to do that.

0:23:52.120,0:23:55.824
Our opportunity with the browser is to have a product that touches people.

0:23:55.824,0:23:56.600
Yeah.

0:23:56.692,0:23:57.584
[Question]

0:24:00.980,0:24:03.762
Yeah. So that's where I'm trying to get to.

0:24:03.762,0:24:06.950
That technology alone is not enough,

0:24:06.950,0:24:09.675
that raw power of technology is not enough,

0:24:09.675,0:24:12.137
that if you really want to touch people,

0:24:12.137,0:24:15.402
not us, not power users, not developers

0:24:15.402,0:24:18.098
but if you want to touch consumers

0:24:18.098,0:24:19.905
and change their lives,

0:24:19.905,0:24:23.414
you have to be utterly committed to that.

0:24:23.721,0:24:26.905
You can't build the features that you want

0:24:26.905,0:24:28.989
just because you want them.

0:24:28.989,0:24:30.997
You can't tell people:

0:24:30.997,0:24:33.345
"Oh, you should behave this way,

0:24:33.345,0:24:35.352
you should want to be this way."

0:24:35.352,0:24:38.112
You have to build the product that is elegant

0:24:38.112,0:24:41.456
and beautiful and powerful under the covers

0:24:41.456,0:24:43.049
but that people love.

0:24:43.049,0:24:44.518
That was the first thing.

0:24:44.518,0:24:46.172
That is a big change.

0:24:46.172,0:24:49.056
Many open source projects never make that change.

0:24:49.056,0:24:52.508
I started calling it the tyranny of the product.

0:24:52.508,0:24:57.013
If you are serious about wanting to touch hundreds of millions of people

0:24:57.013,0:25:00.434
you have to be committed to those hundreds of millions of people.

0:25:00.434,0:25:02.457
You can't just think they're stupid,

0:25:02.457,0:25:04.065
or they don't understand.

0:25:04.065,0:25:08.855
You have to really be committed to making their lives better.

0:25:08.855,0:25:10.991
So that's what Firefox do.

0:25:10.991,0:25:17.980
So we didn't rewrite all these switches, and all the preferences

0:25:19.849,0:25:22.746
the way our first product had.

0:25:22.746,0:25:28.894
We also made an initial experience for people they could relate to.

0:25:29.231,0:25:31.154
That's our Start page.

0:25:31.695,0:25:32.595
Before...

0:25:32.888,0:25:33.626
[Question]

0:25:39.939,0:25:41.935
Do you want to?

0:25:42.451,0:25:47.316
You don't have mics, and there's no mic for that.

0:25:47.978,0:25:49.932
How about... you (...)

0:25:49.956,0:25:52.170
So I'm gonna step back.

0:25:52.170,0:25:54.275
How did Firefox come into being?

0:25:54.275,0:25:58.569
Firefox had started in a few years before, in 2001 maybe,

0:25:59.848,0:26:05.581
where it became clear that the old products had a bunch of problems.

0:26:05.673,0:26:09.724
Not only was it really built for developers and much too powerful,

0:26:09.724,0:26:13.167
not too powerful but not elegant

0:26:16.069,0:26:18.717
and not beautiful on how it displayed its power.

0:26:18.717,0:26:25.025
And it was a combined browser, email client, IRC client, app launcher environment.

0:26:27.419,0:26:29.477
This was a cause of intense fighting

0:26:29.477,0:26:32.017
and so a small group of engineers went off

0:26:32.017,0:26:35.142
and had an idea for doing something more elegant,

0:26:35.142,0:26:39.988
just a browser, that was focussed on a product

0:26:39.988,0:26:41.985
a family would want to use.

0:26:41.985,0:26:44.283
So there were five or six of them.

0:26:44.399,0:26:45.214
[Question]

0:26:52.746,0:26:55.111
Yeah. So Dan says a couple of those guys

0:26:55.111,0:26:58.719
were at Netscape working on the suite as their day job

0:26:58.719,0:27:02.713
and during their spare time some were community members

0:27:02.713,0:27:05.235
and some were not engineers like Asa was involved

0:27:06.320,0:27:09.290
So that had been bubbling a lot for a while, and so on.

0:27:09.290,0:27:12.147
It wasn't anywhere near done

0:27:13.101,0:27:17.092
and it was both a source of a relief and some contention

0:27:17.092,0:27:19.174
for the engineers working on it.

0:27:19.360,0:27:22.269
Was there more you wanted to say?

0:27:22.699,0:27:27.634
Ok. So it had been bubbling a lot and existed in a source code repository,

0:27:27.634,0:27:32.270
I think when we formed the foundation it was 0.2 or maybe 0.3.

0:27:33.844,0:27:37.711
That's probably a good time to tell the story of the name of Firefox.

0:27:37.711,0:27:41.136
So when it was first started, the engineers thought

0:27:41.136,0:27:45.296
"wow we're building a new browser out of the ashes of Mozilla 1.0"

0:27:45.296,0:27:47.658
and so it was named Phoenix.

0:27:47.758,0:27:48.865
[Question]

0:27:54.261,0:27:57.239
For a really non-product but Mozilla/Browser when it came to have a name

0:27:57.239,0:27:58.872
it was Phoenix.

0:27:59.033,0:28:02.633
Well, there is a company, Phoenix Technologies,

0:28:02.633,0:28:05.098
it's a BIOS company, it's been around forever,

0:28:05.098,0:28:08.440
they once had a browser kind of thing

0:28:08.440,0:28:11.705
and so the World of Trademarks contacted us

0:28:11.705,0:28:14.058
and said we couldn't use the name Phoenix

0:28:14.058,0:28:15.819
and we looked at it and they were probably right,

0:28:15.819,0:28:17.974
they had a product that was pretty close.

0:28:17.974,0:28:21.998
So of course, from Phoenix, the next obvious name is Firebird.

0:28:23.285,0:28:27.216
So our browser was Firebird for one or two releases

0:28:27.216,0:28:31.187
and it turns out there was, and still is,

0:28:31.861,0:28:35.691
an open source database project by the name of Firebird.

0:28:36.845,0:28:37.998
[Question]

0:28:43.610,0:28:48.083
So, not really legally trademark violation

0:28:48.083,0:28:50.167
cos it's distinct enough

0:28:50.167,0:28:55.319
but certainly perceived as unfriendly, awkward and difficult.

0:28:56.227,0:29:00.042
That went on for a while, and Brendan and the rest of us

0:29:00.042,0:29:02.928
posted something that said

0:29:02.928,0:29:06.520
"OK, you're right, we're gonna change the name

0:29:06.520,0:29:09.221
we'll change it before we ship our next version."

0:29:10.057,0:29:12.197
That was a problem,

0:29:13.692,0:29:18.161
because it meant that the version was ready to ship

0:29:18.161,0:29:20.023
before we had a name for it.

0:29:22.391,0:29:26.628
Shipping it with no name seemed like a loss of momentum,

0:29:26.628,0:29:28.682
Brendan had made a commitment

0:29:28.682,0:29:35.939
and we had a really intense emotional survival fight

0:29:37.253,0:29:39.776
like a couple of weeks, I think it was a couple of weeks,

0:29:39.776,0:29:42.960
to try to figure out what we were gonna call this thing.

0:29:42.960,0:29:45.297
The developer, Ben,

0:29:45.297,0:29:49.717
liked the idea of doing something with fire in the name.

0:29:51.076,0:29:53.812
So we went through a dictionary or a book

0:29:53.812,0:29:55.548
looking for all the words that started with fire

0:29:55.548,0:29:56.802
that might make sense.

0:29:56.802,0:29:58.410
So we started going through them.

0:29:58.625,0:30:01.419
On the side, we were doing a very professional process

0:30:01.419,0:30:04.079
of thinking about "oh, what does the browser mean?

0:30:04.079,0:30:06.366
How do you develop a brand?

0:30:06.366,0:30:08.765
Is it navigation? Is it freedom?

0:30:08.765,0:30:10.588
Is it these kinds of words?

0:30:10.588,0:30:12.992
What are the values you associate with it?

0:30:12.992,0:30:14.553
Is it trust or is it fun?

0:30:14.553,0:30:17.146
And there was this very professional process on the side.

0:30:17.156,0:30:20.326
But the reality was the name was chosen

0:30:20.326,0:30:22.845
when Ben had a list of words that started with fire,

0:30:22.845,0:30:24.996
we started looking at the ones we liked,

0:30:24.996,0:30:26.850
and then taking the ones we liked

0:30:26.850,0:30:29.709
and looking to see which of them didn't have trademark problems.

0:30:30.369,0:30:31.976
And Firefox was the one.

0:30:31.976,0:30:34.192
It turned out it had a slight trademark issue

0:30:34.192,0:30:35.880
but we were able to resolve that one.

0:30:35.880,0:30:38.448
We also knew that it had a mascot,

0:30:38.448,0:30:41.668
we could have an image that would be good

0:30:41.668,0:30:43.614
and I think it might have been Asa

0:30:43.614,0:30:45.847
who first found the Chinese red panda,

0:30:45.847,0:30:48.711
that there really truly is an animal called the Firefox

0:30:48.711,0:30:51.498
and it's adorable or whatever.

0:30:51.498,0:30:53.152
So there we were.

0:30:53.152,0:30:58.340
We picked the name and then were able to ship Firefox 0.8.

0:30:58.340,0:30:59.086
Seven!

0:30:59.117,0:31:01.351
Seven? Ok, seven.

0:31:01.436,0:31:03.664
So this would be in 2004.

0:31:03.664,0:31:08.053
This is in the spring of 2004,

0:31:08.113,0:31:11.357
we had the foundation for seven or eight months,

0:31:11.357,0:31:13.165
we're burning through our money,

0:31:13.165,0:31:15.940
we're trying to figure out how we're gonna support ourselves,

0:31:15.940,0:31:18.812
we have a good size community,

0:31:18.812,0:31:25.932
we have an office, a very funky sublet from some friends of the Mozilla project,

0:31:25.932,0:31:30.967
who when the giant .com boom had gotten a lot more office space

0:31:30.967,0:31:32.452
than they needed

0:31:32.452,0:31:35.391
and so they'd given us this little funky sublet,

0:31:35.391,0:31:37.758
there is one picture of it floating around

0:31:37.758,0:31:40.453
if you've seen that picture of 10 or 12 of us at a table

0:31:40.453,0:31:43.502
with the cables hanging down in the middle of it,

0:31:43.502,0:31:48.502
it had no running water, you had to go back into the janitor's closet

0:31:48.502,0:31:53.161
in the back of the building to get running water or to wash any dishes,

0:31:53.161,0:31:55.761
we bought a portable dishwasher

0:31:55.761,0:32:01.064
and we rolled it down to the janitor's closet to wash our margarine glasses, mostly.

0:32:05.499,0:32:07.945
So we were finally able, in the midst of all of that,

0:32:07.945,0:32:09.830
we have a name, we can ship our product.

0:32:09.830,0:32:11.668
So we shipped our 0.7,

0:32:11.668,0:32:16.847
and I think it was when we got to 0.8 with Firefox

0:32:16.847,0:32:19.735
which it would have been on May or June of 2004,

0:32:19.735,0:32:24.021
that we finally understood we had a chance.

0:32:24.128,0:32:25.782
Like a real chance.

0:32:25.782,0:32:29.014
Because 0.8 of Firefox was far enough along

0:32:29.014,0:32:31.068
that people started noticing it.

0:32:31.068,0:32:34.664
And the number of people using Firefox started to grow.

0:32:34.664,0:32:37.358
Pretty soon there were more people using Firefox 8

0:32:37.358,0:32:39.073
than had ever used the Mozilla suite.

0:32:39.073,0:32:42.140
Something like a million, or two or three million.

0:32:42.378,0:32:45.333
And the other way that I knew that we were on the right track

0:32:45.333,0:32:47.202
was Tim O'Reilly called us up.

0:32:47.202,0:32:48.941
I mean I know Tim forever

0:32:48.941,0:32:50.834
because I've been in the open source world for a number of years

0:32:50.834,0:32:52.165
but this time he called up to say

0:32:52.165,0:32:54.610
"Hey, we're hearing a lot about Firefox.

0:32:54.610,0:32:56.633
Can we come down and talk to you?"

0:32:56.633,0:33:01.144
Tim O'Reilly's greater skill is he has a phenomenal nose for what's new,

0:33:01.144,0:33:04.240
what's coming and what technology is gonna be interesting.

0:33:04.240,0:33:06.304
So there were a lot of clues.

0:33:06.795,0:33:11.011
Then, the summer of 2004 was a long summer.

0:33:11.225,0:33:15.167
Because in between 0.9 and 1.0 was five or six months,

0:33:15.167,0:33:17.867
that's when the extension system was built

0:33:18.530,0:33:23.649
and I think I've been the most nervous I've ever been in that phase.

0:33:23.649,0:33:27.427
I remember speaking and I could not...

0:33:27.427,0:33:30.213
I was on a panel but I walked across the stage constantly,

0:33:30.213,0:33:31.729
I was sick to my stomach

0:33:31.729,0:33:33.976
because we knew this was our big bet,

0:33:33.976,0:33:35.846
we could see the stuff was happening

0:33:35.846,0:33:39.106
but there was that pressure that you have to ship the product.

0:33:39.179,0:33:41.578
So the final phases of Firefox,

0:33:41.578,0:33:43.309
getting the first version out,

0:33:43.309,0:33:46.227
were the start page and we...

0:33:46.596,0:33:51.219
Before Firefox the start page had been a typical open source project:

0:33:51.219,0:33:54.803
"Hi! Wanna help? Here is Bugzilla.

0:33:54.856,0:33:56.584
Don't like Bugzilla? Here's Despot.

0:33:56.584,0:34:00.253
You don't like that? Here's the link for Tinderbox."

0:34:01.561,0:34:05.355
So when we made the commitment to ship a consumer product

0:34:05.355,0:34:10.020
we realised that doesn't help most people.

0:34:11.266,0:34:12.512
[Question]

0:34:16.318,0:34:20.777
Unlike Bugzilla, which is smooth and lovely...

0:34:21.999,0:34:25.214
That shows you our standards, right?

0:34:25.214,0:34:34.023
So this was again an immense emotional intense, like knocked-down drag-out fight.

0:34:34.023,0:34:36.979
What to do? How much commercial relationship do we have?

0:34:36.979,0:34:41.886
There's the point of maintaining our values

0:34:41.886,0:34:46.143
and doing things in a way that represents our values

0:34:46.143,0:34:48.588
and be where people are.

0:34:48.588,0:34:50.942
There's often no easy answer.

0:34:50.942,0:34:54.271
In the past we had voted we will go where people are.

0:34:54.271,0:34:55.802
That's how we have impact.

0:34:55.802,0:34:57.462
We could be an open source project.

0:34:57.462,0:35:01.561
We were a very successful open source project in 1999

0:35:01.561,0:35:05.478
where we had thousands of people already contributing to Mozilla.

0:35:05.478,0:35:08.341
We were irrelevant to the marketplace.

0:35:08.341,0:35:10.802
We were irrelevant to consumers' lives

0:35:10.802,0:35:12.830
and irrelevant to citizen's lives.

0:35:12.830,0:35:15.053
And we changed that with Firefox

0:35:15.053,0:35:19.231
by consciously deciding to go where people are.

0:35:19.685,0:35:23.859
We even did a commercial relationship with Google and Yahoo,

0:35:24.817,0:35:27.956
which of course turned out after the fact

0:35:27.956,0:35:30.493
to be what sustains us going forward.

0:35:30.493,0:35:32.959
But we did those commercial relationships

0:35:32.959,0:35:36.297
because we wanted their searchs and we thought that they would be good.

0:35:36.297,0:35:40.091
Now, after the fact, it turns out they generated the money

0:35:40.091,0:35:41.730
that allows us to grow.

0:35:41.730,0:35:46.145
So sustainability is also an important piece.

0:35:46.145,0:35:48.594
How do you build those relationships

0:35:48.594,0:35:50.450
in a way that have Mozilla values in them?

0:35:50.450,0:35:53.387
We've done that before and we'll continue to do that.

0:35:53.387,0:35:56.235
And now I'm trying to think about...

0:35:56.235,0:35:58.372
Do we wanna have questions?

0:35:58.372,0:36:01.158
Has everybody asked the questions they have?

0:36:01.158,0:36:04.982
I can keep talking or we can go on to questions.

0:36:04.982,0:36:07.582
I do wanna close at the end, but go ahead.

0:36:07.689,0:36:08.951
[Question]

0:36:26.395,0:36:31.896
So we knew that... so we shipped Firefox 4...

0:36:31.896,0:36:33.681
Firefox 1,

0:36:34.182,0:36:37.004
in November 2004

0:36:39.923,0:36:45.857
and we had a goal of, I don't know, 10 million downloads in 30 days,

0:36:46.133,0:36:48.279
which we past in 10 days.

0:36:48.279,0:36:54.038
So we knew by December that the amount of money we would be getting

0:36:54.038,0:36:56.538
was beyond our expectations.

0:36:56.627,0:36:59.572
We didn't know how far it would go.

0:36:59.657,0:37:03.713
So we had been hoping to be able to generate enough revenue

0:37:03.713,0:37:06.840
to sustain those 10 people, or 12 people.

0:37:06.840,0:37:10.508
At the time, we didn't even know how to sustain those.

0:37:10.508,0:37:14.285
By January 1st, we knew that we would be able to do that.

0:37:14.285,0:37:17.160
The response to Firefox 1

0:37:17.168,0:37:19.788
was sort of the stuff of dreams.

0:37:20.312,0:37:24.426
Now, it turns out, those were also stressful times.

0:37:24.426,0:37:25.789
What happened?

0:37:25.789,0:37:27.543
We shipped Firefox 1 by February or March,

0:37:27.543,0:37:29.259
there was a security issue

0:37:29.259,0:37:33.081
that we didn't actually know how to fix right away.

0:37:33.081,0:37:35.125
Like a lot of times when a security issue is reported

0:37:35.125,0:37:38.653
it turns out that figuring out the problem is the hard part

0:37:38.653,0:37:41.128
and fixing it is the easier part.

0:37:41.128,0:37:44.038
But this was one, it was a class of vulnerability

0:37:44.038,0:37:46.910
that someone, somewhere, is this the guy in Japan?

0:37:46.985,0:37:51.019
I think someone had figured out a new way of attacking products.

0:37:51.019,0:37:58.222
So we had this immense focus, attention and user base growing

0:37:58.222,0:38:02.043
and this phenomenally difficult product to try and deal with it,

0:38:02.043,0:38:03.512
really giant.

0:38:03.512,0:38:07.323
So, someday if you see Johnny Stenback and you wanna know

0:38:07.323,0:38:09.137
what immense pressure is really like

0:38:09.137,0:38:11.330
ask him about that period,

0:38:11.330,0:38:14.286
the one that... 0.5 and 1.0.6...

0:38:14.286,0:38:17.181
So success has its own issues.

0:38:17.181,0:38:19.502
That was one of things that we learned.

0:38:19.502,0:38:22.119
That it is phenomenal to be at the centre

0:38:22.119,0:38:24.735
and so we experienced that with Mozilla today,

0:38:24.735,0:38:29.056
that success is phenomenal but it brings its own stresses and tensions,

0:38:29.056,0:38:32.491
and if you're not careful and you just focus on the stress,

0:38:32.491,0:38:35.920
it's easy to forget that is the sign of success.

0:38:37.589,0:38:41.233
The sign of success in that era was that we had this product,

0:38:41.233,0:38:45.896
like it was critical to fix this problem right away.

0:38:45.896,0:38:47.657
And you don't know how to do it.

0:38:47.657,0:38:49.259
Everybody's looking at you,

0:38:49.259,0:38:52.198
you really have to be more than you thought you could be.

0:38:52.198,0:38:55.751
It's immensely stressful, that's success.

0:38:55.914,0:38:58.686
So if you find yourself in those settings today,

0:38:58.686,0:39:01.131
of course try to step back, take a deep breath,

0:39:01.131,0:39:03.729
be healthy, get some exercise, do all of those things

0:39:03.729,0:39:07.878
but remember that that level of stress and tension

0:39:07.878,0:39:10.419
reflects the importance that we have,

0:39:10.419,0:39:12.673
how critical we are to people's lives

0:39:12.919,0:39:15.079
and is a measure of success.

0:39:15.079,0:39:18.312
Not the best measure, there's more fun measures

0:39:18.312,0:39:20.388
but when you're in the middle of those settings

0:39:20.388,0:39:22.180
it is important to remember that

0:39:22.180,0:39:24.740
if we didn't matter then that stress isn't gonna be the same.

0:39:24.740,0:39:25.525
Yes.

0:39:26.254,0:39:27.100
[Question]

0:39:31.151,0:39:32.121
Sure.

0:39:33.607,0:39:35.668
When we started as a foundation

0:39:35.668,0:39:37.568
there was never any question about that.

0:39:37.568,0:39:39.315
AOL knew that would be the case,

0:39:39.315,0:39:41.875
all of us who wanted to work for it knew it would be the case.

0:39:41.875,0:39:45.243
So we set it up that way,

0:39:47.180,0:39:48.810
and then, as in December of 2004,

0:39:48.810,0:39:52.448
became clear that we were gonna get significant amounts of money.

0:39:52.448,0:39:56.408
I think December was probably a 3 million dollar check,

0:39:56.408,0:39:58.839
as I remember, something like that.

0:39:58.839,0:40:02.204
So we had (...) that much in a year and suddenly we had it in a month.