WEBVTT 00:00:01.985 --> 00:00:03.928 Hi I'm Jeremy Allison 00:00:03.928 --> 00:00:06.711 with Google's Open Source Program Office 00:00:06.711 --> 00:00:08.852 and I'm here at the Free Software Foundation's 00:00:08.852 --> 00:00:12.189 LibrePlanet conference here in Boston. NOTE Paragraph 00:00:12.189 --> 00:00:15.662 And I'm very lucky to be here with Karen Sandler 00:00:15.662 --> 00:00:18.952 who is the Executive Director of the GNOME Foundation. 00:00:18.952 --> 00:00:20.013 Welcome Karen. 00:00:20.013 --> 00:00:22.484 Thanks Jeremy. [laughs] 00:00:22.484 --> 00:00:25.736 So Karen originally was a lawyer 00:00:25.736 --> 00:00:28.320 at the Software Freedom Law Center 00:00:28.320 --> 00:00:30.917 and then moved over to being the Executive Director 00:00:30.917 --> 00:00:32.132 of the GNOME Foundation 00:00:32.132 --> 00:00:33.981 taking over from Stormy Peters 00:00:33.981 --> 00:00:36.264 who I interviewed a few years ago. 00:00:36.264 --> 00:00:37.527 So Karen, could you tell us 00:00:37.527 --> 00:00:39.614 a little bit more about the GNOME Foundation 00:00:39.614 --> 00:00:40.876 and what it is that you do for 00:00:40.876 --> 00:00:42.228 Free Software? 00:00:42.228 --> 00:00:44.425 Sure, and actually I am still a lawyer 00:00:44.425 --> 00:00:47.418 so you made it sound like I was a lawyer 00:00:47.418 --> 00:00:49.520 and maybe people would like me better 00:00:49.520 --> 00:00:51.070 if I weren't still a lawyer 00:00:51.070 --> 00:00:52.666 but I am. 00:00:52.666 --> 00:00:55.505 Actually the legal work that I do now 00:00:55.505 --> 00:00:56.704 is almost entirely pro bono work 00:00:56.704 --> 00:00:57.930 at the Software Freedom Law Center still 00:00:57.930 --> 00:00:59.360 even though I no longer work there 00:00:59.360 --> 00:01:01.391 and also for Conservancy 00:01:01.391 --> 00:01:03.411 and also for QuestionCopyright.org 00:01:03.411 --> 00:01:06.183 and I've also just recently have become 00:01:06.183 --> 00:01:07.405 an advisor of the Ada Initiative 00:01:07.405 --> 00:01:08.734 which I'm really excited about. 00:01:08.734 --> 00:01:10.241 But you asked about the GNOME Foundation 00:01:10.241 --> 00:01:12.099 which I'm the Executive Director of 00:01:12.099 --> 00:01:16.992 and I'm the luckiest lawyer in the world 00:01:16.992 --> 00:01:19.261 to have that job. [laughs] 00:01:19.261 --> 00:01:20.915 What exactly do you want to know about it? 00:01:20.915 --> 00:01:22.632 You asked a good question and I got distracted 00:01:22.632 --> 00:01:25.299 by talking about my legal background. 00:01:25.299 --> 00:01:27.393 OK, so, for people who may not know 00:01:27.393 --> 00:01:33.161 GNOME is a Free Software desktop for, um, 00:01:33.161 --> 00:01:37.473 it shipped on most Linux distributions as the default desktop 00:01:37.473 --> 00:01:39.566 or as I am at the LibrePlanet conference 00:01:39.566 --> 00:01:40.315 [laugh] 00:01:40.315 --> 00:01:42.227 perhaps I should say GNU/Linux distributions. 00:01:42.227 --> 00:01:45.727 — as the default desktop, and 00:01:45.727 --> 00:01:47.908 it's, if people are used to it 00:01:47.908 --> 00:01:52.655 it's the visual interface that you would see if you're using the desktop 00:01:52.655 --> 00:01:54.316 so it's what drives the windows 00:01:54.316 --> 00:01:55.229 the mouse etc. 00:01:55.229 --> 00:01:56.994 It's the visual look of it. 00:01:56.994 --> 00:02:00.871 So what makes GNOME different from other desktop software? 00:02:00.871 --> 00:02:04.738 Yeah, and I'd also add that GNOME is also the backbone of 00:02:04.738 --> 00:02:08.194 quite of number of GNU/Linux distributions. 00:02:08.210 --> 00:02:14.875 There's a lot of GNOME in Ubuntu and also Linux Mint 00:02:14.875 --> 00:02:18.160 and the OpenSuSE distribution 00:02:18.160 --> 00:02:19.576 has GNOME 3 as a default. 00:02:19.576 --> 00:02:20.414 Don't forget Fedora! 00:02:20.414 --> 00:02:22.391 And Fedora has GNOME — 00:02:22.391 --> 00:02:23.815 yeah, well I mean I'm going through it — 00:02:23.815 --> 00:02:26.945 And also — so Fedora and also 00:02:26.945 --> 00:02:29.893 Debian uses GNOME 3 as default as well. 00:02:29.893 --> 00:02:34.408 So it is actually ah pretty well deployed. 00:02:34.408 --> 00:02:35.435 What makes GNOME different 00:02:35.435 --> 00:02:36.710 from other desktops, you ask, 00:02:36.710 --> 00:02:40.309 is, well, it's just so pretty! 00:02:40.309 --> 00:02:42.411 So when I was sitting there as a lawyer 00:02:42.411 --> 00:02:43.949 at the Software Freedom Law Center 00:02:43.949 --> 00:02:45.123 and GNOME 3 came out 00:02:45.123 --> 00:02:46.724 I was astounded. 00:02:46.724 --> 00:02:48.751 I hadn't really thought too much about 00:02:48.751 --> 00:02:51.381 the step before except to be frustrated 00:02:51.381 --> 00:02:57.867 that it was hard to explain to non-GNU/Linux users 00:02:57.867 --> 00:02:59.326 why I cared so much that 00:02:59.326 --> 00:03:01.295 I was using kind of an uglier desktop 00:03:01.295 --> 00:03:02.802 or you know I used my old computer 00:03:02.802 --> 00:03:05.487 and why freedom mattered so much. 00:03:05.487 --> 00:03:09.051 And when I saw GNOME 3 I was bowled over. 00:03:09.051 --> 00:03:12.658 It was so sleek and pretty and beautiful 00:03:12.658 --> 00:03:14.626 And I felt like it was exactly the thing 00:03:14.626 --> 00:03:17.576 that we need to bridge the gap to new users 00:03:17.576 --> 00:03:21.097 and to users who are just coming into this space. 00:03:21.097 --> 00:03:24.028 I mean, through my medical devices advocacy 00:03:24.028 --> 00:03:26.338 — and we may talk about that after, I'm not sure — 00:03:26.338 --> 00:03:28.743 I come across a lot of people 00:03:28.743 --> 00:03:30.554 who are Mac users 00:03:30.554 --> 00:03:33.316 or people who don't really know too much about 00:03:33.316 --> 00:03:34.816 Free and Open Source Software 00:03:34.816 --> 00:03:36.588 and the biggest complaint that they have 00:03:36.588 --> 00:03:38.090 when they start looking into it 00:03:38.090 --> 00:03:39.920 is that it's so difficult to use. 00:03:39.920 --> 00:03:44.673 And so what GNOME, and GNOME 3 in particular, has NOTE Paragraph 00:03:44.673 --> 00:03:48.914 is that it's just so easy and so beautiful. 00:03:48.914 --> 00:03:50.972 So I'm really proud to be affiliated with it 00:03:50.972 --> 00:03:52.906 and I think that it's a great strategy. 00:03:52.906 --> 00:03:54.458 And we're about to release GNOME 3.4 00:03:54.458 --> 00:03:56.376 probably by the time this is posted 00:03:56.376 --> 00:03:58.589 3.4 will probably be out, since it's just coming out on Wednesday 00:03:58.589 --> 00:04:00.233 but there are a lot of amazing improvements 00:04:00.233 --> 00:04:02.476 that are coming in with 3.4. 00:04:02.476 --> 00:04:04.476 And it's only going to get better from there. 00:04:04.476 --> 00:04:06.206 So I believe the GNOME 3 slogan is 00:04:06.206 --> 00:04:08.184 'made of easy' 00:04:08.184 --> 00:04:11.672 I thought it was made of software. 00:04:11.672 --> 00:04:17.065 So one of the most popular GNU/Linux distributions, 00:04:17.065 --> 00:04:19.422 or Linux distributions, is Ubuntu. 00:04:19.422 --> 00:04:24.616 And Ubuntu has chosen to use its own separate interface 00:04:24.616 --> 00:04:30.429 called Unity rather than sticking with the GNOME 3 shell. 00:04:30.429 --> 00:04:34.590 So what was the— what's behind that? 00:04:34.590 --> 00:04:39.203 And is there a chance that Unity can be unified 00:04:39.203 --> 00:04:41.995 as it were? With the GNOME desktop? 00:04:41.995 --> 00:04:43.127 I think that's a great question 00:04:43.127 --> 00:04:47.600 and I don't mean to turn the tables too much here 00:04:47.600 --> 00:04:50.689 but a lot of the decision to go to Unity 00:04:50.689 --> 00:04:53.588 happened before I became Executive Director of GNOME. 00:04:53.588 --> 00:04:55.171 I've only been Executive Director of GNOME 00:04:55.171 --> 00:04:56.774 for seven or eight months now and 00:04:56.774 --> 00:04:59.489 you I believe were an advisory board representative 00:04:59.489 --> 00:05:00.788 during that time. 00:05:00.788 --> 00:05:02.187 [laughter] 00:05:02.187 --> 00:05:03.478 Well thank you. 00:05:03.478 --> 00:05:06.726 But what I guess what is going on in the GNU/Linux space 00:05:06.726 --> 00:05:08.579 is that we're realising just what I said before 00:05:08.579 --> 00:05:09.929 which is just that we have a real challenge 00:05:09.929 --> 00:05:13.723 to reach new users and to reach unsophisticated — 00:05:13.723 --> 00:05:15.426 er, I think saying 'unsophisticated' 00:05:15.426 --> 00:05:16.830 that's really talking down to these users. 00:05:16.830 --> 00:05:20.235 I don't mean it like that, I mean non-power users. 00:05:20.235 --> 00:05:22.810 Not — you know, users that aren't developers 00:05:22.810 --> 00:05:26.825 and sort of understanding the fact that if Free Software is going to be successful 00:05:26.825 --> 00:05:29.102 we have to reach a much wider audience. 00:05:29.102 --> 00:05:32.428 And I think that's also what Canonical is trying to do with Unity. 00:05:32.428 --> 00:05:34.909 And so both of these efforts are actually 00:05:34.909 --> 00:05:36.561 building on the same technology. 00:05:36.561 --> 00:05:40.254 So Canonical is still very active in the GNOME community. 00:05:40.254 --> 00:05:42.163 They're still a member of our advisory board and 00:05:42.163 --> 00:05:44.860 you'll see that the GNOME 3.2 press release 00:05:44.860 --> 00:05:46.601 had a quote from Canonical on it as well. 00:05:46.601 --> 00:05:48.689 So there's a lot of work being done together, 00:05:48.689 --> 00:05:51.113 and there's a lot of you know a lot of sharing 00:05:51.113 --> 00:05:52.894 and a lot of combined efforts 00:05:52.894 --> 00:05:54.114 which I think is really good. 00:05:54.114 --> 00:05:55.685 And at the end of the day 00:05:55.685 --> 00:05:58.196 there are two different competing desktop experiences 00:05:58.196 --> 00:06:01.258 but that share a lot of technology. 00:06:01.258 --> 00:06:06.022 So there are actually three different competing desktops. 00:06:06.022 --> 00:06:07.335 Well there's more than that! 00:06:07.335 --> 00:06:10.750 Well this is true, but the other popular one is KDE 00:06:10.750 --> 00:06:12.525 which I believe these days just stands for 00:06:12.525 --> 00:06:14.416 the K Desktop Environment. 00:06:14.416 --> 00:06:17.723 Is there a chance do you guys work together with 00:06:17.723 --> 00:06:20.783 the other Linux desktop which is KDE 00:06:20.783 --> 00:06:23.106 and do you colloborate on technology? 00:06:23.106 --> 00:06:25.814 Well actually I would think that if we're going to 00:06:25.814 --> 00:06:28.353 talk about the main desktop environments 00:06:28.353 --> 00:06:31.310 I think we if I mean we talk about GNOME 00:06:31.310 --> 00:06:33.109 and we talk about Unity 00:06:33.109 --> 00:06:35.660 we should also talk about Linux Mint 00:06:35.660 --> 00:06:37.579 which is built on GNOME 3 technologies 00:06:37.579 --> 00:06:39.657 but is a distinctive environment. 00:06:39.657 --> 00:06:43.093 And then there are a whole other, a whole other host 00:06:43.093 --> 00:06:45.602 of desktops that people like because 00:06:45.602 --> 00:06:47.678 they're tailored to their particular needs. 00:06:47.678 --> 00:06:50.119 And that's great. That's one of the benefits of Free Software 00:06:50.119 --> 00:06:52.577 is that we can take the technology that people make 00:06:52.577 --> 00:06:55.791 and refine it and make it into something that we want. 00:06:55.791 --> 00:07:01.426 KDE actually pre-dates GNOME as a project. 00:07:01.426 --> 00:07:02.797 There was a licensing problem when 00:07:02.797 --> 00:07:05.681 KDE was originally launched about 15 years ago 00:07:05.681 --> 00:07:10.754 and after about six months the — Miguel de Icaza 00:07:10.754 --> 00:07:14.235 and Federico and other early GNOME developers 00:07:14.235 --> 00:07:15.998 decided that they wanted to fix that licensing problem 00:07:15.998 --> 00:07:17.588 and make a truly free desktop. 00:07:17.588 --> 00:07:20.225 And so two ultimately free desktops were born 00:07:20.225 --> 00:07:21.916 and they've been competing ever since. 00:07:21.916 --> 00:07:23.436 We do work with KDE quite a lot. 00:07:23.436 --> 00:07:25.004 We've had a couple of desktop summits, 00:07:25.004 --> 00:07:26.693 we do some hackfests together. 00:07:26.693 --> 00:07:28.411 We're trying to increase areas of collaboration 00:07:28.411 --> 00:07:30.972 whereever we can. 00:07:30.972 --> 00:07:34.541 So um here's an interesting thing: 00:07:34.541 --> 00:07:37.403 the desktop, the Linux desktop, is getting really pretty, 00:07:37.403 --> 00:07:40.855 very easy to use, and yet 00:07:40.855 --> 00:07:44.016 on the plane I was flying out here 00:07:44.016 --> 00:07:47.673 I went to the bathroom and looked around. 00:07:47.673 --> 00:07:50.895 There was one old guy using a laptop, 00:07:50.895 --> 00:07:54.073 myself, who also had a laptop which I wasn't using, 00:07:54.073 --> 00:07:57.230 another old guy who was using a laptop. 00:07:57.230 --> 00:08:00.896 Every other person using a computer on that plane 00:08:00.896 --> 00:08:04.016 was using a tablet PC, mainly an iPad. 00:08:04.016 --> 00:08:08.588 What is GNOME doing to address the complete change 00:08:08.588 --> 00:08:11.508 in computing that appears to be taking place 00:08:11.508 --> 00:08:14.024 that desktop computing is for old people 00:08:14.024 --> 00:08:15.854 and everyone else uses tablets? 00:08:15.854 --> 00:08:17.786 That's a really good question. 00:08:17.786 --> 00:08:19.945 I would actually say that a few years ago 00:08:19.945 --> 00:08:21.405 if you looked around on a plane, 00:08:21.405 --> 00:08:23.692 not that many people had laptops. 00:08:23.692 --> 00:08:25.559 Some people had laptops but not that many. 00:08:25.559 --> 00:08:28.303 And I think that largely, and this is actually just 00:08:28.303 --> 00:08:31.561 I'm sort of stepping away from talking on behalf of GNOME here 00:08:31.561 --> 00:08:35.184 I'm just saying that as an observer of technology in our society 00:08:35.184 --> 00:08:38.016 that I think what a lot of these tablet devices are doing 00:08:38.016 --> 00:08:40.503 are replacing a niche that we haven't had before. 00:08:40.503 --> 00:08:42.650 So I think that people are doing things with those 00:08:42.650 --> 00:08:45.228 with tablet computers that are not necessarily 00:08:45.228 --> 00:08:48.297 replacing laptops but they're sort of you know 00:08:48.297 --> 00:08:50.654 addressing a whole new need 00:08:50.654 --> 00:08:52.649 that phones were sort of starting to get at 00:08:52.649 --> 00:08:57.627 but weren't quite, so I think that that makes it a little more complicated. 00:08:57.627 --> 00:09:00.338 I do think that are— that technology is changing 00:09:00.338 --> 00:09:02.327 and the way that we think about it is changing. 00:09:02.327 --> 00:09:04.432 And the number of people who expect access 00:09:04.432 --> 00:09:05.617 to it have changed. 00:09:05.617 --> 00:09:07.541 Which is why you know all of these pushes 00:09:07.541 --> 00:09:11.348 in the GNU/Linux environments to make all of our interfaces 00:09:11.348 --> 00:09:13.177 very easy to use are coming from. 00:09:13.177 --> 00:09:15.597 Because we perceive the fact that people 00:09:15.597 --> 00:09:18.528 and again my mother hates it when I talk about her 00:09:18.528 --> 00:09:21.236 but five years ago she would have never used 00:09:21.236 --> 00:09:22.950 a computer for anything! 00:09:22.950 --> 00:09:24.963 I kept, every year I would try to do something 00:09:24.963 --> 00:09:26.772 "Mom, let's put our recipes in, you know, 00:09:26.772 --> 00:09:28.294 let's share information, you know!" 00:09:28.294 --> 00:09:30.137 And nothing nothing nothing nothing nothing. 00:09:30.137 --> 00:09:32.787 Now, she does everything. 00:09:32.787 --> 00:09:35.092 I mean, it's just, basically technology has gotten to a point 00:09:35.092 --> 00:09:37.432 her friends are started using it, everybody's started using it. 00:09:37.432 --> 00:09:40.258 She, you know, so people who didn't use computers before 00:09:40.258 --> 00:09:41.853 are using them and that means there's a whole 00:09:41.853 --> 00:09:44.547 different kind of computer usage 00:09:44.547 --> 00:09:47.029 that's being represented in these tablets. 00:09:47.029 --> 00:09:49.072 And it's still early days for GNOME 3. 00:09:49.072 --> 00:09:52.904 So basically we have gone and rebuilt GNOME as GNOME 3 00:09:52.904 --> 00:09:55.473 and created this awesome beautiful desktop environment 00:09:55.473 --> 00:09:58.266 and we'll have to see where it goes from here. 00:09:58.266 --> 00:10:00.613 So I know there are efforts to bring it on to tablets. 00:10:00.613 --> 00:10:02.847 There are efforts to bring it on to mobile space. 00:10:02.847 --> 00:10:05.464 And hopefully we'll make sure they get somewhere. 00:10:05.464 --> 00:10:06.937 But it takes time. 00:10:06.937 --> 00:10:08.677 And Free Software unfortunately sometimes 00:10:08.677 --> 00:10:09.864 because of its very nature 00:10:09.864 --> 00:10:11.494 because they're community development 00:10:11.494 --> 00:10:13.380 because often they're non-profit driven 00:10:13.380 --> 00:10:15.845 takes a little longer sometimes. 00:10:15.845 --> 00:10:17.091 But I hope we'll get there. 00:10:17.091 --> 00:10:19.356 So your talk today was actually about 00:10:19.356 --> 00:10:22.395 accessibility on the GNOME 3 desktop. 00:10:22.395 --> 00:10:25.835 Could you describe for able-bodied viewers 00:10:25.835 --> 00:10:29.487 what accessibility on a desktop means? 00:10:29.487 --> 00:10:33.410 Yeah well as somebody pointed out in the question section of the talk 00:10:33.410 --> 00:10:35.519 accessibility means a lot of things 00:10:35.519 --> 00:10:36.702 and it means a lot of different things 00:10:36.702 --> 00:10:38.621 to a lot of different people. 00:10:38.621 --> 00:10:42.210 Accessibility to me means that people can use 00:10:42.210 --> 00:10:44.288 computers regardless of disability. 00:10:44.288 --> 00:10:47.703 So in the GNOME world or the things that GNOME is 00:10:47.703 --> 00:10:50.784 most focused on, are visual impairments. 00:10:50.784 --> 00:10:53.362 So, and that's partly for historical reasons 00:10:53.362 --> 00:10:58.802 but we have a lot of effort in trying to get the 00:10:58.802 --> 00:11:01.970 desktop much more usable by visually impaired users. 00:11:01.970 --> 00:11:04.115 And I would say that that's a very large portion 00:11:04.115 --> 00:11:06.497 of the accessibility efforts that we do. 00:11:06.497 --> 00:11:08.239 But we do other efforts as well. 00:11:08.239 --> 00:11:11.779 Actually we have a testimonial on our website now 00:11:11.779 --> 00:11:13.932 because we've launched an accessibility campaign 00:11:13.932 --> 00:11:15.357 with GNOME where we want to make 00:11:15.357 --> 00:11:17.584 2012 the year of accessibility at GNOME 00:11:17.584 --> 00:11:19.942 so you can donate on the GNOME website 00:11:19.942 --> 00:11:22.460 and give to our campaign. 00:11:22.460 --> 00:11:25.523 But along with the campaign to explain it to people 00:11:25.523 --> 00:11:27.143 we've launched these testimonials 00:11:27.143 --> 00:11:29.579 from people who are, who you know have disabilities 00:11:29.579 --> 00:11:31.750 who are using GNOME for every day. 00:11:31.750 --> 00:11:34.603 And one of those is a person with visual impairment 00:11:34.603 --> 00:11:37.316 who uses GNOME to you know 00:11:37.316 --> 00:11:39.326 basically to use a computer and make a living 00:11:39.326 --> 00:11:40.941 but — as a developer — 00:11:40.941 --> 00:11:43.632 but we also have somebody who I think 00:11:43.632 --> 00:11:45.839 I should have looked this up before today 00:11:45.839 --> 00:11:49.284 I think he has cystic fibrosis and he's severely disabled 00:11:49.284 --> 00:11:52.736 and he's just thrilled that GNOME 3 makes it possible 00:11:52.736 --> 00:11:55.422 for him to use a computer at all by himself. 00:11:55.422 --> 00:11:58.296 So with GNOME 3 he can, he says he can, 00:11:58.296 --> 00:12:00.487 you know he can search on the Internet 00:12:00.487 --> 00:12:02.315 for music videos and talk with his friends. 00:12:02.315 --> 00:12:04.440 And he never thought that he'd be able to do that by himself. 00:12:04.440 --> 00:12:06.524 So accessibility means a lot of things. 00:12:06.524 --> 00:12:09.887 For us it means you know we will, we definitely 00:12:09.887 --> 00:12:14.174 want to push forward making our desktop usable by everybody 00:12:14.174 --> 00:12:18.309 partcularly people with particular disabilities like blindness. 00:12:18.309 --> 00:12:22.447 So the other thing that you're very interested in 00:12:22.447 --> 00:12:25.693 is women in computing 00:12:25.693 --> 00:12:28.367 and I believe that’s the Ada Initiative 00:12:28.367 --> 00:12:29.984 that you’re associated with. 00:12:29.984 --> 00:12:31.095 Could you tell our viewers 00:12:31.095 --> 00:12:32.953 a little more about that? 00:12:32.953 --> 00:12:33.810 Yeah I’d love to and 00:12:33.810 --> 00:12:35.253 it’s actually two things 00:12:35.253 --> 00:12:36.648 and I think one led me 00:12:36.648 --> 00:12:38.179 to the other. The first one is 00:12:38.179 --> 00:12:39.682 the GNOME Outreach Program 00:12:39.682 --> 00:12:41.677 for Women and Google is a sponsor 00:12:41.677 --> 00:12:43.602 of the program and we’re so 00:12:43.602 --> 00:12:45.284 grateful that Google sponsors interns 00:12:45.284 --> 00:12:48.105 in our community 00:12:48.105 --> 00:12:49.198 because what our program does 00:12:49.198 --> 00:12:51.313 is we specifically invite women 00:12:51.313 --> 00:12:53.985 to apply and take on — 00:12:53.985 --> 00:12:56.641 it’s inspired by Google Summer of Code actually 00:12:56.641 --> 00:12:58.631 — and it encourages them to come into projects. 00:12:58.631 --> 00:13:00.349 They don’t need to be [into?] 00:13:00.349 --> 00:13:01.677 development although many of them are 00:13:01.677 --> 00:13:02.952 we have marketing interns, 00:13:02.952 --> 00:13:07.234 design interns, you know, documentation interns. 00:13:07.234 --> 00:13:08.316 And what these women do 00:13:08.316 --> 00:13:09.182 is that they come in, 00:13:09.182 --> 00:13:10.051 and in order to apply 00:13:10.051 --> 00:13:11.678 you must have made contributions already 00:13:11.678 --> 00:13:13.381 into the project so basically 00:13:13.381 --> 00:13:15.912 it specifically invites women to come 00:13:15.912 --> 00:13:17.912 and participate in our community 00:13:17.912 --> 00:13:19.920 and tells them how to get started. 00:13:19.920 --> 00:13:21.838 And in order to even submit the application 00:13:21.838 --> 00:13:23.402 you have to make contacts with people, 00:13:23.402 --> 00:13:25.283 talk to them, figure out, you know, 00:13:25.283 --> 00:13:27.041 what the needs are in the project 00:13:27.041 --> 00:13:29.372 and make a real fix. 00:13:29.372 --> 00:13:31.514 So the program’s been really successful 00:13:31.514 --> 00:13:34.712 and what we’ve done is basically systematically addressed 00:13:34.712 --> 00:13:36.054 all of those reasons why 00:13:36.054 --> 00:13:37.615 we think women are excluded 00:13:37.615 --> 00:13:39.335 or have traditionally not been present in the 00:13:39.335 --> 00:13:40.850 Free and Open Source Software community. 00:13:40.850 --> 00:13:42.989 And at GNOME it’s been tremendously successful: 00:13:42.989 --> 00:13:44.605 a very high percentage of the women 00:13:44.605 --> 00:13:46.747 that participate in our programs 00:13:46.747 --> 00:13:48.331 stay in our community. 00:13:48.331 --> 00:13:50.827 I think, there’s a number that — 00:13:50.827 --> 00:13:51.858 I think it’s something like 00:13:51.858 --> 00:13:55.383 40% of the women who participated in, uh, 00:13:55.383 --> 00:13:56.687 two rounds ago 00:13:56.687 --> 00:13:58.159 and the round before that 00:13:58.159 --> 00:13:59.511 — not only stayed in our community 00:13:59.511 --> 00:14:00.889 but were active in outreach. 00:14:00.889 --> 00:14:02.786 So they were mentors, 00:14:02.786 --> 00:14:04.094 they were speaking 00:14:04.094 --> 00:14:05.692 on behalf of GNOME to get more people involved 00:14:05.692 --> 00:14:07.394 because they had such a good experience. 00:14:07.394 --> 00:14:08.536 And so it’s this kind of thing and 00:14:08.536 --> 00:14:12.242 the GNOME community has changed so much since I first became involved in it 00:14:12.242 --> 00:14:14.484 many years ago where now I go to a conference 00:14:14.484 --> 00:14:15.805 and there are women there. 00:14:15.805 --> 00:14:18.155 And not only that, there’s a supportive community 00:14:18.155 --> 00:14:19.753 where, you know, sometimes when 00:14:19.753 --> 00:14:21.533 I have a bad day 00:14:21.533 --> 00:14:24.186 I posted a blog recently where I had spoken 00:14:24.186 --> 00:14:26.013 on a panel at South by Southwest [SXSW] 00:14:26.013 --> 00:14:30.764 and my discussion was so intellectual and high level 00:14:30.764 --> 00:14:32.701 — but I posted a photo of me 00:14:32.701 --> 00:14:34.686 and the other three panelists and 00:14:34.686 --> 00:14:38.584 somebody commented on a specific part of my anatomy 00:14:38.584 --> 00:14:39.853 oh 00:14:39.853 --> 00:14:41.924 and it shocked me and I remembered — 00:14:41.924 --> 00:14:43.179 That is gross. 00:14:43.179 --> 00:14:47.060 “Oh! That is why I don’t post photos of myself generally!” 00:14:47.060 --> 00:14:48.189 But it was like 00:14:48.189 --> 00:14:51.408 “I’m already a seasoned member of our community, 00:14:51.408 --> 00:14:54.017 one bad comment isn’t going to turn me away.” 00:14:54.017 --> 00:14:55.208 But five years ago, 00:14:55.208 --> 00:14:57.677 I maybe would have just gone away. 00:14:57.677 --> 00:14:59.293 But I knew that I could go to the 00:14:59.293 --> 00:15:02.199 women’s outreach forum on the GNOME server 00:15:02.199 --> 00:15:03.794 and I — you know, on the IRC channel — 00:15:03.794 --> 00:15:04.889 and we all talked about it and 00:15:04.889 --> 00:15:06.485 three other people said 00:15:06.485 --> 00:15:08.525 “I had that happen to me last week” 00:15:08.525 --> 00:15:10.517 and it’s unfortunate that it’s so common 00:15:10.517 --> 00:15:12.179 but we’ve created infrastructure, 00:15:12.179 --> 00:15:13.745 we’ve created ways that we can talk about it 00:15:13.745 --> 00:15:15.145 that allows women to cope and understand 00:15:15.145 --> 00:15:18.222 that our community is more valuable and 00:15:18.222 --> 00:15:20.485 not just represented by the few bad actors. 00:15:20.485 --> 00:15:24.183 So the GNOME Outreach Program which is the fantastic 00:15:24.183 --> 00:15:28.187 and Marina who is actually at Red Hat 00:15:28.187 --> 00:15:30.290 and she does this and she’s amazing, 00:15:30.290 --> 00:15:32.393 she’s the one who spearheads this effort, 00:15:32.393 --> 00:15:33.118 it’s incredible. 00:15:33.118 --> 00:15:33.930 You’re laughing? 00:15:33.930 --> 00:15:36.086 No, I’ve actually interviewed Marina, 00:15:36.086 --> 00:15:37.629 if people want to look back 00:15:37.629 --> 00:15:39.841 you can find an interview with her 00:15:39.841 --> 00:15:41.339 on exactly this topic. 00:15:41.339 --> 00:15:43.898 Oh OK, so I’ll skip to the Ada Initiative. 00:15:43.898 --> 00:15:44.868 Yeah. 00:15:44.868 --> 00:15:46.617 which is — so I’ve just become an advisor 00:15:46.617 --> 00:15:48.588 to that because I went to a conference 00:15:48.588 --> 00:15:51.985 in Melbourne when I was there for Linux Conf Australia 00:15:51.985 --> 00:15:54.824 They had this — it’s called AdaCamp 00:15:54.824 --> 00:15:56.356 and I was astounded by 00:15:56.356 --> 00:15:59.281 how many articulate amazing interesting women 00:15:59.281 --> 00:16:00.204 there were who had so much more 00:16:00.204 --> 00:16:02.757 information about women in technology 00:16:02.757 --> 00:16:04.009 than I ever had. 00:16:04.009 --> 00:16:05.951 I’ve been interviewed as a woman in Free Software 00:16:05.951 --> 00:16:08.450 in the past and [laughs] — 00:16:08.450 --> 00:16:10.669 following the old axiom that 00:16:10.669 --> 00:16:11.616 in order to be an expert 00:16:11.616 --> 00:16:12.637 about women in Free Software 00:16:12.637 --> 00:16:14.936 you just had to be one. 00:16:14.936 --> 00:16:15.577 Yeah. 00:16:15.577 --> 00:16:16.125 [laughs] 00:16:16.125 --> 00:16:19.190 So they — but these women had statistics 00:16:19.190 --> 00:16:20.648 and they had real knowledge 00:16:20.648 --> 00:16:24.050 and they had amazing recommendations of things that 00:16:24.050 --> 00:16:27.476 Free Software projects and software companies 00:16:27.476 --> 00:16:30.534 can do to make sure that 00:16:30.534 --> 00:16:33.595 they’re actually encouraging women to participate. 00:16:33.595 --> 00:16:35.906 And so that’s why I decided to affiliate with them, 00:16:35.906 --> 00:16:36.608 and to support them. 00:16:36.608 --> 00:16:37.571 Their work is incredible. 00:16:37.571 --> 00:16:39.074 They’ve helped create 00:16:39.074 --> 00:16:40.893 codes of conduct for conferences, 00:16:40.893 --> 00:16:42.779 they’ve helped deal with problems as they arise, 00:16:42.779 --> 00:16:44.369 they’ve helped draw attention to the issue 00:16:44.369 --> 00:16:46.152 in the field, so it’s great, 00:16:46.152 --> 00:16:47.258 the Ada Initiative. 00:16:47.258 --> 00:16:48.190 That’s really good, 00:16:48.190 --> 00:16:49.597 so that’s the search term if 00:16:49.597 --> 00:16:52.414 people want to find out more about it. 00:16:52.414 --> 00:16:54.878 Because we could do with 00:16:54.878 --> 00:16:56.482 more women in engineering, 00:16:56.482 --> 00:16:58.986 and in the Free Software communities. 00:16:58.986 --> 00:17:01.291 So the other interesting thing that 00:17:01.291 --> 00:17:04.687 you deal with is you have a very interesting 00:17:04.687 --> 00:17:06.632 perspective on Free Software 00:17:06.632 --> 00:17:08.929 as it relates to medical devices, 00:17:08.929 --> 00:17:10.870 why that's really important. 00:17:10.870 --> 00:17:12.697 I don't want you to go into any specific details 00:17:12.697 --> 00:17:15.245 but maybe you could explain to our viewers 00:17:15.245 --> 00:17:18.439 a little bit about how important that is. 00:17:18.439 --> 00:17:20.693 Yeah, I don't know how to explain it 00:17:20.693 --> 00:17:21.788 without at least getting into 00:17:21.788 --> 00:17:24.402 the specific story of me 00:17:24.402 --> 00:17:25.950 but I'll make it really short 00:17:25.950 --> 00:17:28.790 and it's that I have a heart condition 00:17:28.790 --> 00:17:32.789 I have a very big heart 00:17:32.789 --> 00:17:34.713 and I'm fine, I have no symptoms 00:17:34.713 --> 00:17:36.789 but I am at a very high risk of suddenly dying. 00:17:36.789 --> 00:17:37.886 And I was already a lawyer 00:17:37.886 --> 00:17:39.686 at the Software Freedom Law Center 00:17:39.686 --> 00:17:41.217 when I was told that I needed 00:17:41.217 --> 00:17:42.382 a pacemaker/defibrillator 00:17:42.382 --> 00:17:45.756 so — and I'd been a programmer back in college 00:17:45.756 --> 00:17:47.872 — so my first question was 00:17:47.872 --> 00:17:49.781 "Well, what is the software on the device?" 00:17:49.781 --> 00:17:52.194 And the doctor not only had no answer for me 00:17:52.194 --> 00:17:54.150 he'd never thought about that question before. 00:17:54.150 --> 00:17:56.380 The medical device rep came in 00:17:56.380 --> 00:17:57.688 who happened to be there that day 00:17:57.688 --> 00:17:59.385 had also never thought about that question 00:17:59.385 --> 00:18:00.539 and had no answer. 00:18:00.539 --> 00:18:06.447 And so I began this big discovery that 00:18:06.447 --> 00:18:08.441 to make a long story short 00:18:08.441 --> 00:18:09.721 brought me to the realisation that 00:18:09.721 --> 00:18:11.969 actually the Food and Drug Administration 00:18:11.969 --> 00:18:13.197 is not reviewing 00:18:13.197 --> 00:18:15.143 the source code on these devices 00:18:15.143 --> 00:18:19.103 because they're not asking for the 00:18:19.103 --> 00:18:20.074 source code to review it, 00:18:20.074 --> 00:18:22.137 they actually don't even keep a copy. 00:18:22.137 --> 00:18:23.161 So there are all these issues 00:18:23.161 --> 00:18:25.448 with the fact that we're all relying on these 00:18:25.448 --> 00:18:27.175 medical device companies 00:18:27.175 --> 00:18:30.183 for creating and testing their own software. 00:18:30.183 --> 00:18:32.191 Which, you know, these companies 00:18:32.191 --> 00:18:33.108 have an interest in making sure that 00:18:33.108 --> 00:18:34.726 nobody dies 00:18:34.726 --> 00:18:39.135 but when you have something that's 00:18:39.135 --> 00:18:40.121 being implanted into your body 00:18:40.121 --> 00:18:41.998 and being literally screwed into your heart 00:18:41.998 --> 00:18:43.463 Yousort of start to realise that 00:18:43.463 --> 00:18:45.279 "Well, why can't I look at the software 00:18:45.279 --> 00:18:46.723 that's on this device?" 00:18:46.723 --> 00:18:48.382 And not only that, I actually 00:18:48.382 --> 00:18:50.183 even offered to sign an NDA, I wasn't even 00:18:50.183 --> 00:18:52.043 asking "please publish it to the world" 00:18:52.043 --> 00:18:53.140 I was just saying 00:18:53.140 --> 00:18:54.679 "I would feel a lot better personally 00:18:54.679 --> 00:18:56.508 if I could take a look at the code." 00:18:56.508 --> 00:18:58.418 And that was a non-starter with these 00:18:58.418 --> 00:18:59.700 medical device companies. 00:18:59.700 --> 00:19:01.124 So what I've started doing is 00:19:01.124 --> 00:19:02.166 in addition to the research about the 00:19:02.166 --> 00:19:03.810 legal ramifications and what the framework are 00:19:03.810 --> 00:19:05.906 are to just sort of start talking about it 00:19:05.906 --> 00:19:07.648 and sort of let people know 00:19:07.648 --> 00:19:09.371 that this is really a problem that 00:19:09.371 --> 00:19:12.194 the medical devices that we have right now fail. 00:19:12.194 --> 00:19:13.736 They're great, they're amazing devices 00:19:13.736 --> 00:19:15.001 but they have software in them 00:19:15.001 --> 00:19:16.245 and software has bugs. 00:19:16.245 --> 00:19:18.734 So over time they will fail and 00:19:18.734 --> 00:19:20.940 you know, just because software is available 00:19:20.940 --> 00:19:23.871 for review doesn't mean it will be 100% safe. 00:19:23.871 --> 00:19:25.328 It will also have bugs. 00:19:25.328 --> 00:19:26.828 But the chances are that if there are problems 00:19:26.828 --> 00:19:28.079 they'll be caught faster 00:19:28.079 --> 00:19:29.719 that anyone can fix them; 00:19:29.719 --> 00:19:31.417 all of the reasons why Free Software 00:19:31.417 --> 00:19:34.191 is so great to work on and so great to have 00:19:34.191 --> 00:19:35.699 in your company's products 00:19:35.699 --> 00:19:37.049 are exactly the same reasons why 00:19:37.049 --> 00:19:39.578 it makes so much more sense to have it in medical devices. 00:19:39.578 --> 00:19:40.443 But on top of that 00:19:40.443 --> 00:19:42.485 it's just an issue of public safety. 00:19:42.485 --> 00:19:44.630 So, you know, you can come at it 00:19:44.630 --> 00:19:47.193 from either just the sensible 00:19:47.193 --> 00:19:50.153 "these devices fail and instead of —" 00:19:50.153 --> 00:19:51.363 There are all these think tanks that 00:19:51.363 --> 00:19:53.845 are going around researching these devices 00:19:53.845 --> 00:19:54.912 and they are finding ways to 00:19:54.912 --> 00:19:56.815 show that they're maliciously hackable. 00:19:56.815 --> 00:19:59.895 And those same think tanks would be reviewing 00:19:59.895 --> 00:20:02.788 the source code line-by-line and finding problems 00:20:02.788 --> 00:20:04.239 so that they could be fixed. 00:20:04.239 --> 00:20:05.835 You know there's a tremendous amount 00:20:05.835 --> 00:20:07.070 of interest in this. 00:20:07.070 --> 00:20:08.435 And once you start thinking about your 00:20:08.435 --> 00:20:10.393 medical devices you think about all the software 00:20:10.393 --> 00:20:13.620 you rely on, it's not just my medical device, 00:20:13.620 --> 00:20:15.675 what about our voting machines? 00:20:15.675 --> 00:20:16.845 What about our cars? 00:20:16.845 --> 00:20:18.033 Our cars have been — there was a 00:20:18.033 --> 00:20:21.439 security exploit on cars where 00:20:21.439 --> 00:20:24.598 they could be remotely hacked into 00:20:24.598 --> 00:20:27.674 through the most amazing of ways 00:20:27.674 --> 00:20:32.434 and controlled: steered and accelerated 00:20:32.434 --> 00:20:34.186 and — just amazing stuff. 00:20:34.186 --> 00:20:38.268 So, you know, it's everything that we rely on, 00:20:38.268 --> 00:20:41.017 and all that software interacts together. 00:20:41.017 --> 00:20:43.551 So we need our software that we rely on 00:20:43.551 --> 00:20:46.620 to be, you know, to be Free and Open. 00:20:46.620 --> 00:20:49.028 We're building just so much infrastructure 00:20:49.028 --> 00:20:52.415 both, you know, in our hearts, in our bodies, 00:20:52.415 --> 00:20:56.395 but also in our society, our financial markets. 00:20:56.395 --> 00:20:59.504 The only way we'll create a good society 00:20:59.504 --> 00:21:00.892 going forward is by making sure that 00:21:00.892 --> 00:21:02.829 it's freedom and — 00:21:02.829 --> 00:21:04.465 As I like to often say 00:21:04.465 --> 00:21:07.675 eventually your doorknob is going to have a processor 00:21:07.675 --> 00:21:08.416 [laugh] 00:21:08.416 --> 00:21:11.808 running software and who controls the code in that? 00:21:11.808 --> 00:21:13.281 It will end up being extremely important 00:21:13.281 --> 00:21:14.965 going forward. 00:21:14.965 --> 00:21:17.480 So there's one final question I'd like to ask 00:21:17.480 --> 00:21:19.168 — thank you so much for your time — 00:21:19.168 --> 00:21:23.435 but what I always like to ask people 00:21:23.435 --> 00:21:27.047 is for viewers who might not be currently in the 00:21:27.047 --> 00:21:29.022 Free Software community, 00:21:29.022 --> 00:21:30.590 who might be thinking about it: 00:21:30.590 --> 00:21:32.968 how did you get to where you are? 00:21:32.968 --> 00:21:36.689 So, you know, imagine that you're a young woman 00:21:36.689 --> 00:21:40.051 in your late teens or early twenties 00:21:40.051 --> 00:21:42.328 what advice would you give to someone like that 00:21:42.328 --> 00:21:45.116 to be able to end up in the august position 00:21:45.116 --> 00:21:47.883 of Director of the GNOME Foundation? 00:21:47.883 --> 00:21:51.008 People actually do ask me — especially law students — 00:21:51.008 --> 00:21:53.764 how they can emulate my career path 00:21:53.764 --> 00:21:55.699 and I tell them that I wish I was as organised 00:21:55.699 --> 00:21:57.703 as they are to even ask about it. 00:21:57.703 --> 00:21:59.392 I kind of, to be totally honest, 00:21:59.392 --> 00:22:01.742 just stumbled into these jobs. 00:22:01.742 --> 00:22:06.262 I would say that interest in technology for women 00:22:06.262 --> 00:22:07.779 happens very early. 00:22:07.779 --> 00:22:12.653 So I would say to all of you 00:22:12.653 --> 00:22:15.054 if you know of a little girl 00:22:15.054 --> 00:22:18.122 try and introduce them to some kind of technology 00:22:18.122 --> 00:22:20.406 because once you get past a certain age 00:22:20.406 --> 00:22:23.576 for many girls it's too late. 00:22:23.576 --> 00:22:25.437 At the AdaCamp we had a session 00:22:25.437 --> 00:22:28.984 where we talked about how we could get 00:22:28.984 --> 00:22:30.845 more high school girls interested in technology 00:22:30.845 --> 00:22:32.747 and I was like "hang on, let's stop for a second 00:22:32.747 --> 00:22:34.307 and let's go around the room really fast 00:22:34.307 --> 00:22:36.515 and say what we think our earliest positive 00:22:36.515 --> 00:22:38.314 technology experience was that we think was 00:22:38.314 --> 00:22:39.553 the most formative." 00:22:39.553 --> 00:22:41.304 So that we could sort of think of how to 00:22:41.304 --> 00:22:43.294 create that for other girls. 00:22:43.294 --> 00:22:44.925 And almost everybody as I went around 00:22:44.925 --> 00:22:47.428 had a parent, notably a father, 00:22:47.428 --> 00:22:49.099 who had been interested in computers 00:22:49.099 --> 00:22:51.605 and who had encouraged us at a very early age. 00:22:51.605 --> 00:22:53.687 So I would say that that — I had a father 00:22:53.687 --> 00:22:55.625 who was an engineer 00:22:55.625 --> 00:22:57.419 and he encouraged me from the get-go 00:22:57.419 --> 00:23:00.389 and I'm very old in Free Software terms 00:23:00.389 --> 00:23:03.755 so he encouraged me on Prodigy and Compuserve 00:23:03.755 --> 00:23:06.534 and I had a computer from the earliest days 00:23:06.534 --> 00:23:07.753 where I was running BASIC 00:23:07.753 --> 00:23:12.803 and he looked at my 10 PRINT "KAREN RULES" 00:23:12.803 --> 00:23:15.387 and said you know 00:23:15.387 --> 00:23:16.652 — and GOTO 10 — 00:23:16.652 --> 00:23:19.123 and he said "you know what else you can do with this? 00:23:19.123 --> 00:23:20.198 You can do this, you can do that." 00:23:20.198 --> 00:23:21.528 So I would say that was the earliest thing 00:23:21.528 --> 00:23:23.251 and then I went to engineering school 00:23:23.251 --> 00:23:25.214 because I was on this technology path 00:23:25.214 --> 00:23:27.396 and I worked in a computer lab 00:23:27.396 --> 00:23:28.930 where there were no women 00:23:28.930 --> 00:23:31.155 and I went into the director and I said 00:23:31.155 --> 00:23:34.450 "You have no women in this lab and all these women 00:23:34.450 --> 00:23:35.990 are walking in and it's so hostile 00:23:35.990 --> 00:23:38.144 and they just leave! It's horrible. Can you do something?" 00:23:38.144 --> 00:23:39.486 And he said "You're hired!" 00:23:39.486 --> 00:23:43.128 And that's how I wound up learning about computers 00:23:43.128 --> 00:23:45.294 and spending all my time in the computer lab. 00:23:45.294 --> 00:23:48.092 And so it's quite lucky in part. 00:23:48.092 --> 00:23:49.216 And then I went to law school 00:23:49.216 --> 00:23:52.098 and I didn't even know who Eben Moglen was 00:23:52.098 --> 00:23:54.824 and I happened to be in his class 00:23:54.824 --> 00:23:56.811 on perspectives on modern legal thought. 00:23:56.811 --> 00:24:00.751 And I was so moved by — he's an incredible speaker 00:24:00.751 --> 00:24:03.168 and I was just so moved by his teaching — 00:24:03.168 --> 00:24:04.873 that he was my favourite professor in law school. 00:24:04.873 --> 00:24:07.954 And then I went off and did securities law! 00:24:07.954 --> 00:24:10.342 And I decided — I got fed up and I quit 00:24:10.342 --> 00:24:11.084 and he heard I'd quit 00:24:11.084 --> 00:24:13.106 and he'd started the Software Freedom Law Center 00:24:13.106 --> 00:24:16.608 and asked me if I wanted to learn about non-profit law 00:24:16.608 --> 00:24:18.115 and I was like "yes!" 00:24:18.115 --> 00:24:19.657 But I hadn't actually thought about Free Software 00:24:19.657 --> 00:24:21.223 that much since the 90s. 00:24:21.223 --> 00:24:22.377 Even though I thought it was cool. 00:24:22.377 --> 00:24:24.648 And then all of a sudden I had the opportunity 00:24:24.648 --> 00:24:26.428 to be in the best spot in the world. 00:24:26.428 --> 00:24:29.166 And over time I became really passionate about Free Software. 00:24:29.166 --> 00:24:31.315 And then I had the medical issue happen to me. 00:24:31.315 --> 00:24:33.120 And all of a sudden my personal and professional 00:24:33.120 --> 00:24:34.310 were all combined. 00:24:34.310 --> 00:24:36.361 And I've just been very very lucky. 00:24:36.361 --> 00:24:38.203 So I would say as an advice to someone 00:24:38.203 --> 00:24:39.310 who's starting out: 00:24:39.310 --> 00:24:43.420 I would say "First, be open to new experiences 00:24:43.420 --> 00:24:46.548 don't think that the next choice you're going to make 00:24:46.548 --> 00:24:48.622 is forever. 00:24:48.622 --> 00:24:50.799 And try to do good work in the world. 00:24:50.799 --> 00:24:52.389 It has good ramifications 00:24:52.389 --> 00:24:55.472 and it helps you out in the end too." 00:24:55.472 --> 00:24:57.026 Thank you so much Karen. 00:24:57.026 --> 00:24:59.405 That was really kind of you to spend the time. 00:24:59.405 --> 00:25:00.431 I appreciate it. 00:25:00.431 --> 00:25:01.534 Thanks for interviewing me. 00:25:01.534 --> 00:25:03.000 Thanks.