1 00:00:01,985 --> 00:00:03,928 Hi I'm Jeremy Allison 2 00:00:03,928 --> 00:00:06,711 with Google's Open Source Program Office 3 00:00:06,711 --> 00:00:08,852 and I'm here at the Free Software Foundation's 4 00:00:08,852 --> 00:00:12,189 LibrePlanet conference here in Boston. 5 00:00:12,189 --> 00:00:15,662 And I'm very lucky to be here with Karen Sandler 6 00:00:15,662 --> 00:00:18,952 who is the Executive Director of the GNOME Foundation. 7 00:00:18,952 --> 00:00:20,013 Welcome Karen. 8 00:00:20,013 --> 00:00:22,484 Thanks Jeremy. [laughs] 9 00:00:22,484 --> 00:00:25,736 So Karen originally was a lawyer 10 00:00:25,736 --> 00:00:28,320 at the Software Freedom Law Center 11 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:30,917 and then moved over to being the Executive Director 12 00:00:30,917 --> 00:00:32,132 of the GNOME Foundation 13 00:00:32,132 --> 00:00:33,981 taking over from Stormy Peters 14 00:00:33,981 --> 00:00:36,264 who I interviewed a few years ago. 15 00:00:36,264 --> 00:00:37,527 So Karen, could you tell us 16 00:00:37,527 --> 00:00:39,614 a little bit more about the GNOME Foundation 17 00:00:39,614 --> 00:00:40,876 and what it is that you do for 18 00:00:40,876 --> 00:00:42,228 Free Software? 19 00:00:42,228 --> 00:00:44,425 Sure, and actually I am still a lawyer 20 00:00:44,425 --> 00:00:47,418 so you made it sound like I was a lawyer 21 00:00:47,418 --> 00:00:49,520 and maybe people would like me better 22 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:51,070 if I weren't still a lawyer 23 00:00:51,070 --> 00:00:52,666 but I am. 24 00:00:52,666 --> 00:00:55,505 Actually the legal work that I do now 25 00:00:55,505 --> 00:00:56,704 is almost entirely pro bono work 26 00:00:56,704 --> 00:00:57,930 at the Software Freedom Law Center still 27 00:00:57,930 --> 00:00:59,360 even though I no longer work there 28 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:01,391 and also for Conservancy 29 00:01:01,391 --> 00:01:03,411 and also for QuestionCopyright.org 30 00:01:03,411 --> 00:01:06,183 and I've also just recently have become 31 00:01:06,183 --> 00:01:07,405 an advisor of the Ada Initiative 32 00:01:07,405 --> 00:01:08,734 which I'm really excited about. 33 00:01:08,734 --> 00:01:10,241 But you asked about the GNOME Foundation 34 00:01:10,241 --> 00:01:12,099 which I'm the Executive Director of 35 00:01:12,099 --> 00:01:16,992 and I'm the luckiest lawyer in the world 36 00:01:16,992 --> 00:01:19,261 to have that job. [laughs] 37 00:01:19,261 --> 00:01:20,915 What exactly do you want to know about it? 38 00:01:20,915 --> 00:01:22,632 You asked a good question and I got distracted 39 00:01:22,632 --> 00:01:25,299 by talking about my legal background. 40 00:01:25,299 --> 00:01:27,393 OK, so, for people who may not know 41 00:01:27,393 --> 00:01:33,161 GNOME is a Free Software desktop for, um, 42 00:01:33,161 --> 00:01:37,473 it shipped on most Linux distributions as the default desktop 43 00:01:37,473 --> 00:01:39,566 or as I am at the LibrePlanet conference 44 00:01:39,566 --> 00:01:40,315 [laugh] 45 00:01:40,315 --> 00:01:42,227 perhaps I should say GNU/Linux distributions. 46 00:01:42,227 --> 00:01:45,727 — as the default desktop, and 47 00:01:45,727 --> 00:01:47,908 it's, if people are used to it 48 00:01:47,908 --> 00:01:52,655 it's the visual interface that you would see if you're using the desktop 49 00:01:52,655 --> 00:01:54,316 so it's what drives the windows 50 00:01:54,316 --> 00:01:55,229 the mouse etc. 51 00:01:55,229 --> 00:01:56,994 It's the visual look of it. 52 00:01:56,994 --> 00:02:00,871 So what makes GNOME different from other desktop software? 53 00:02:00,871 --> 00:02:04,738 Yeah, and I'd also add that GNOME is also the backbone of 54 00:02:04,738 --> 00:02:08,194 quite of number of GNU/Linux distributions. 55 00:02:08,210 --> 00:02:14,875 There's a lot of GNOME in Ubuntu and also Linux Mint 56 00:02:14,875 --> 00:02:18,160 and the OpenSuSE distribution 57 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:19,576 has GNOME 3 as a default. 58 00:02:19,576 --> 00:02:20,414 Don't forget Fedora! 59 00:02:20,414 --> 00:02:22,391 And Fedora has GNOME — 60 00:02:22,391 --> 00:02:23,815 yeah, well I mean I'm going through it — 61 00:02:23,815 --> 00:02:26,945 And also — so Fedora and also 62 00:02:26,945 --> 00:02:29,893 Debian uses GNOME 3 as default as well. 63 00:02:29,893 --> 00:02:34,408 So it is actually ah pretty well deployed. 64 00:02:34,408 --> 00:02:35,435 What makes GNOME different 65 00:02:35,435 --> 00:02:36,710 from other desktops, you ask, 66 00:02:36,710 --> 00:02:40,309 is, well, it's just so pretty! 67 00:02:40,309 --> 00:02:42,411 So when I was sitting there as a lawyer 68 00:02:42,411 --> 00:02:43,949 at the Software Freedom Law Center 69 00:02:43,949 --> 00:02:45,123 and GNOME 3 came out 70 00:02:45,123 --> 00:02:46,724 I was astounded. 71 00:02:46,724 --> 00:02:48,751 I hadn't really thought too much about 72 00:02:48,751 --> 00:02:51,381 the step before except to be frustrated 73 00:02:51,381 --> 00:02:57,867 that it was hard to explain to non-GNU/Linux users 74 00:02:57,867 --> 00:02:59,326 why I cared so much that 75 00:02:59,326 --> 00:03:01,295 I was using kind of an uglier desktop 76 00:03:01,295 --> 00:03:02,802 or you know I used my old computer 77 00:03:02,802 --> 00:03:05,487 and why freedom mattered so much. 78 00:03:05,487 --> 00:03:09,051 And when I saw GNOME 3 I was bowled over. 79 00:03:09,051 --> 00:03:12,658 It was so sleek and pretty and beautiful 80 00:03:12,658 --> 00:03:14,626 And I felt like it was exactly the thing 81 00:03:14,626 --> 00:03:17,576 that we need to bridge the gap to new users 82 00:03:17,576 --> 00:03:21,097 and to users who are just coming into this space. 83 00:03:21,097 --> 00:03:24,028 I mean, through my medical devices advocacy 84 00:03:24,028 --> 00:03:26,338 — and we may talk about that after, I'm not sure — 85 00:03:26,338 --> 00:03:28,743 I come across a lot of people 86 00:03:28,743 --> 00:03:30,554 who are Mac users 87 00:03:30,554 --> 00:03:33,316 or people who don't really know too much about 88 00:03:33,316 --> 00:03:34,816 Free and Open Source Software 89 00:03:34,816 --> 00:03:36,588 and the biggest complaint that they have 90 00:03:36,588 --> 00:03:38,090 when they start looking into it 91 00:03:38,090 --> 00:03:39,920 is that it's so difficult to use. 92 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:44,673 And so what GNOME, and GNOME 3 in particular, has 93 00:03:44,673 --> 00:03:48,914 is that it's just so easy and so beautiful. 94 00:03:48,914 --> 00:03:50,972 So I'm really proud to be affiliated with it 95 00:03:50,972 --> 00:03:52,906 and I think that it's a great strategy. 96 00:03:52,906 --> 00:03:54,458 And we're about to release GNOME 3.4 97 00:03:54,458 --> 00:03:56,376 probably by the time this is posted 98 00:03:56,376 --> 00:03:58,589 3.4 will probably be out, since it's just coming out on Wednesday 99 00:03:58,589 --> 00:04:00,233 but there are a lot of amazing improvements 100 00:04:00,233 --> 00:04:02,476 that are coming in with 3.4. 101 00:04:02,476 --> 00:04:04,476 And it's only going to get better from there. 102 00:04:04,476 --> 00:04:06,206 So I believe the GNOME 3 slogan is 103 00:04:06,206 --> 00:04:08,184 'made of easy' 104 00:04:08,184 --> 00:04:11,672 I thought it was made of software. 105 00:04:11,672 --> 00:04:17,065 So one of the most popular GNU/Linux distributions, 106 00:04:17,065 --> 00:04:19,422 or Linux distributions, is Ubuntu. 107 00:04:19,422 --> 00:04:24,616 And Ubuntu has chosen to use its own separate interface 108 00:04:24,616 --> 00:04:30,429 called Unity rather than sticking with the GNOME 3 shell. 109 00:04:30,429 --> 00:04:34,590 So what was the— what's behind that? 110 00:04:34,590 --> 00:04:39,203 And is there a chance that Unity can be unified 111 00:04:39,203 --> 00:04:41,995 as it were? With the GNOME desktop? 112 00:04:41,995 --> 00:04:43,127 I think that's a great question 113 00:04:43,127 --> 00:04:47,600 and I don't mean to turn the tables too much here 114 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:50,689 but a lot of the decision to go to Unity 115 00:04:50,689 --> 00:04:53,588 happened before I became Executive Director of GNOME. 116 00:04:53,588 --> 00:04:55,171 I've only been Executive Director of GNOME 117 00:04:55,171 --> 00:04:56,774 for seven or eight months now and 118 00:04:56,774 --> 00:04:59,489 you I believe were an advisory board representative 119 00:04:59,489 --> 00:05:00,788 during that time. 120 00:05:00,788 --> 00:05:02,187 [laughter] 121 00:05:02,187 --> 00:05:03,478 Well thank you. 122 00:05:03,478 --> 00:05:06,726 But what I guess what is going on in the GNU/Linux space 123 00:05:06,726 --> 00:05:08,579 is that we're realising just what I said before 124 00:05:08,579 --> 00:05:09,929 which is just that we have a real challenge 125 00:05:09,929 --> 00:05:13,723 to reach new users and to reach unsophisticated — 126 00:05:13,723 --> 00:05:15,426 er, I think saying 'unsophisticated' 127 00:05:15,426 --> 00:05:16,830 that's really talking down to these users. 128 00:05:16,830 --> 00:05:20,235 I don't mean it like that, I mean non-power users. 129 00:05:20,235 --> 00:05:22,810 Not — you know, users that aren't developers 130 00:05:22,810 --> 00:05:26,825 and sort of understanding the fact that if Free Software is going to be successful 131 00:05:26,825 --> 00:05:29,102 we have to reach a much wider audience. 132 00:05:29,102 --> 00:05:32,428 And I think that's also what Canonical is trying to do with Unity. 133 00:05:32,428 --> 00:05:34,909 And so both of these efforts are actually 134 00:05:34,909 --> 00:05:36,561 building on the same technology. 135 00:05:36,561 --> 00:05:40,254 So Canonical is still very active in the GNOME community. 136 00:05:40,254 --> 00:05:42,163 They're still a member of our advisory board and 137 00:05:42,163 --> 00:05:44,860 you'll see that the GNOME 3.2 press release 138 00:05:44,860 --> 00:05:46,601 had a quote from Canonical on it as well. 139 00:05:46,601 --> 00:05:48,689 So there's a lot of work being done together, 140 00:05:48,689 --> 00:05:51,113 and there's a lot of you know a lot of sharing 141 00:05:51,113 --> 00:05:52,894 and a lot of combined efforts 142 00:05:52,894 --> 00:05:54,114 which I think is really good. 143 00:05:54,114 --> 00:05:55,685 And at the end of the day 144 00:05:55,685 --> 00:05:58,196 there are two different competing desktop experiences 145 00:05:58,196 --> 00:06:01,258 but that share a lot of technology. 146 00:06:01,258 --> 00:06:06,022 So there are actually three different competing desktops. 147 00:06:06,022 --> 00:06:07,335 Well there's more than that! 148 00:06:07,335 --> 00:06:10,750 Well this is true, but the other popular one is KDE 149 00:06:10,750 --> 00:06:12,525 which I believe these days just stands for 150 00:06:12,525 --> 00:06:14,416 the K Desktop Environment. 151 00:06:14,416 --> 00:06:17,723 Is there a chance do you guys work together with 152 00:06:17,723 --> 00:06:20,783 the other Linux desktop which is KDE 153 00:06:20,783 --> 00:06:23,106 and do you colloborate on technology? 154 00:06:23,106 --> 00:06:25,814 Well actually I would think that if we're going to 155 00:06:25,814 --> 00:06:28,353 talk about the main desktop environments 156 00:06:28,353 --> 00:06:31,310 I think we if I mean we talk about GNOME 157 00:06:31,310 --> 00:06:33,109 and we talk about Unity 158 00:06:33,109 --> 00:06:35,660 we should also talk about Linux Mint 159 00:06:35,660 --> 00:06:37,579 which is built on GNOME 3 technologies 160 00:06:37,579 --> 00:06:39,657 but is a distinctive environment. 161 00:06:39,657 --> 00:06:43,093 And then there are a whole other, a whole other host 162 00:06:43,093 --> 00:06:45,602 of desktops that people like because 163 00:06:45,602 --> 00:06:47,678 they're tailored to their particular needs. 164 00:06:47,678 --> 00:06:50,119 And that's great. That's one of the benefits of Free Software 165 00:06:50,119 --> 00:06:52,577 is that we can take the technology that people make 166 00:06:52,577 --> 00:06:55,791 and refine it and make it into something that we want. 167 00:06:55,791 --> 00:07:01,426 KDE actually pre-dates GNOME as a project. 168 00:07:01,426 --> 00:07:02,797 There was a licensing problem when 169 00:07:02,797 --> 00:07:05,681 KDE was originally launched about 15 years ago 170 00:07:05,681 --> 00:07:10,754 and after about six months the — Miguel de Icaza 171 00:07:10,754 --> 00:07:14,235 and Federico and other early GNOME developers 172 00:07:14,235 --> 00:07:15,998 decided that they wanted to fix that licensing problem 173 00:07:15,998 --> 00:07:17,588 and make a truly free desktop. 174 00:07:17,588 --> 00:07:20,225 And so two ultimately free desktops were born 175 00:07:20,225 --> 00:07:21,916 and they've been competing ever since. 176 00:07:21,916 --> 00:07:23,436 We do work with KDE quite a lot. 177 00:07:23,436 --> 00:07:25,004 We've had a couple of desktop summits, 178 00:07:25,004 --> 00:07:26,693 we do some hackfests together. 179 00:07:26,693 --> 00:07:28,411 We're trying to increase areas of collaboration 180 00:07:28,411 --> 00:07:30,972 whereever we can. 181 00:07:30,972 --> 00:07:34,541 So um here's an interesting thing: 182 00:07:34,541 --> 00:07:37,403 the desktop, the Linux desktop, is getting really pretty, 183 00:07:37,403 --> 00:07:40,855 very easy to use, and yet 184 00:07:40,855 --> 00:07:44,016 on the plane I was flying out here 185 00:07:44,016 --> 00:07:47,673 I went to the bathroom and looked around. 186 00:07:47,673 --> 00:07:50,895 There was one old guy using a laptop, 187 00:07:50,895 --> 00:07:54,073 myself, who also had a laptop which I wasn't using, 188 00:07:54,073 --> 00:07:57,230 another old guy who was using a laptop. 189 00:07:57,230 --> 00:08:00,896 Every other person using a computer on that plane 190 00:08:00,896 --> 00:08:04,016 was using a tablet PC, mainly an iPad. 191 00:08:04,016 --> 00:08:08,588 What is GNOME doing to address the complete change 192 00:08:08,588 --> 00:08:11,508 in computing that appears to be taking place 193 00:08:11,508 --> 00:08:14,024 that desktop computing is for old people 194 00:08:14,024 --> 00:08:15,854 and everyone else uses tablets? 195 00:08:15,854 --> 00:08:17,786 That's a really good question. 196 00:08:17,786 --> 00:08:19,945 I would actually say that a few years ago 197 00:08:19,945 --> 00:08:21,405 if you looked around on a plane, 198 00:08:21,405 --> 00:08:23,692 not that many people had laptops. 199 00:08:23,692 --> 00:08:25,559 Some people had laptops but not that many. 200 00:08:25,559 --> 00:08:28,303 And I think that largely, and this is actually just 201 00:08:28,303 --> 00:08:31,561 I'm sort of stepping away from talking on behalf of GNOME here 202 00:08:31,561 --> 00:08:35,184 I'm just saying that as an observer of technology in our society 203 00:08:35,184 --> 00:08:38,016 that I think what a lot of these tablet devices are doing 204 00:08:38,016 --> 00:08:40,503 are replacing a niche that we haven't had before. 205 00:08:40,503 --> 00:08:42,650 So I think that people are doing things with those 206 00:08:42,650 --> 00:08:45,228 with tablet computers that are not necessarily 207 00:08:45,228 --> 00:08:48,297 replacing laptops but they're sort of you know 208 00:08:48,297 --> 00:08:50,654 addressing a whole new need 209 00:08:50,654 --> 00:08:52,649 that phones were sort of starting to get at 210 00:08:52,649 --> 00:08:57,627 but weren't quite, so I think that that makes it a little more complicated. 211 00:08:57,627 --> 00:09:00,338 I do think that are— that technology is changing 212 00:09:00,338 --> 00:09:02,327 and the way that we think about it is changing. 213 00:09:02,327 --> 00:09:04,432 And the number of people who expect access 214 00:09:04,432 --> 00:09:05,617 to it have changed. 215 00:09:05,617 --> 00:09:07,541 Which is why you know all of these pushes 216 00:09:07,541 --> 00:09:11,348 in the GNU/Linux environments to make all of our interfaces 217 00:09:11,348 --> 00:09:13,177 very easy to use are coming from. 218 00:09:13,177 --> 00:09:15,597 Because we perceive the fact that people 219 00:09:15,597 --> 00:09:18,528 and again my mother hates it when I talk about her 220 00:09:18,528 --> 00:09:21,236 but five years ago she would have never used 221 00:09:21,236 --> 00:09:22,950 a computer for anything! 222 00:09:22,950 --> 00:09:24,963 I kept, every year I would try to do something 223 00:09:24,963 --> 00:09:26,772 "Mom, let's put our recipes in, you know, 224 00:09:26,772 --> 00:09:28,294 let's share information, you know!" 225 00:09:28,294 --> 00:09:30,137 And nothing nothing nothing nothing nothing. 226 00:09:30,137 --> 00:09:32,787 Now, she does everything. 227 00:09:32,787 --> 00:09:35,092 I mean, it's just, basically technology has gotten to a point 228 00:09:35,092 --> 00:09:37,432 her friends are started using it, everybody's started using it. 229 00:09:37,432 --> 00:09:40,258 She, you know, so people who didn't use computers before 230 00:09:40,258 --> 00:09:41,853 are using them and that means there's a whole 231 00:09:41,853 --> 00:09:44,547 different kind of computer usage 232 00:09:44,547 --> 00:09:47,029 that's being represented in these tablets. 233 00:09:47,029 --> 00:09:49,072 And it's still early days for GNOME 3. 234 00:09:49,072 --> 00:09:52,904 So basically we have gone and rebuilt GNOME as GNOME 3 235 00:09:52,904 --> 00:09:55,473 and created this awesome beautiful desktop environment 236 00:09:55,473 --> 00:09:58,266 and we'll have to see where it goes from here. 237 00:09:58,266 --> 00:10:00,613 So I know there are efforts to bring it on to tablets. 238 00:10:00,613 --> 00:10:02,847 There are efforts to bring it on to mobile space. 239 00:10:02,847 --> 00:10:05,464 And hopefully we'll make sure they get somewhere. 240 00:10:05,464 --> 00:10:06,937 But it takes time. 241 00:10:06,937 --> 00:10:08,677 And Free Software unfortunately sometimes 242 00:10:08,677 --> 00:10:09,864 because of its very nature 243 00:10:09,864 --> 00:10:11,494 because they're community development 244 00:10:11,494 --> 00:10:13,380 because often they're non-profit driven 245 00:10:13,380 --> 00:10:15,845 takes a little longer sometimes. 246 00:10:15,845 --> 00:10:17,091 But I hope we'll get there. 247 00:10:17,091 --> 00:10:19,356 So your talk today was actually about 248 00:10:19,356 --> 00:10:22,395 accessibility on the GNOME 3 desktop. 249 00:10:22,395 --> 00:10:25,835 Could you describe for able-bodied viewers 250 00:10:25,835 --> 00:10:29,487 what accessibility on a desktop means? 251 00:10:29,487 --> 00:10:33,410 Yeah well as somebody pointed out in the question section of the talk 252 00:10:33,410 --> 00:10:35,519 accessibility means a lot of things 253 00:10:35,519 --> 00:10:36,702 and it means a lot of different things 254 00:10:36,702 --> 00:10:38,621 to a lot of different people. 255 00:10:38,621 --> 00:10:42,210 Accessibility to me means that people can use 256 00:10:42,210 --> 00:10:44,288 computers regardless of disability. 257 00:10:44,288 --> 00:10:47,703 So in the GNOME world or the things that GNOME is 258 00:10:47,703 --> 00:10:50,784 most focused on, are visual impairments. 259 00:10:50,784 --> 00:10:53,362 So, and that's partly for historical reasons 260 00:10:53,362 --> 00:10:58,802 but we have a lot of effort in trying to get the 261 00:10:58,802 --> 00:11:01,970 desktop much more usable by visually impaired users. 262 00:11:01,970 --> 00:11:04,115 And I would say that that's a very large portion 263 00:11:04,115 --> 00:11:06,497 of the accessibility efforts that we do. 264 00:11:06,497 --> 00:11:08,239 But we do other efforts as well. 265 00:11:08,239 --> 00:11:11,779 Actually we have a testimonial on our website now 266 00:11:11,779 --> 00:11:13,932 because we've launched an accessibility campaign 267 00:11:13,932 --> 00:11:15,357 with GNOME where we want to make 268 00:11:15,357 --> 00:11:17,584 2012 the year of accessibility at GNOME 269 00:11:17,584 --> 00:11:19,942 so you can donate on the GNOME website 270 00:11:19,942 --> 00:11:22,460 and give to our campaign. 271 00:11:22,460 --> 00:11:25,523 But along with the campaign to explain it to people 272 00:11:25,523 --> 00:11:27,143 we've launched these testimonials 273 00:11:27,143 --> 00:11:29,579 from people who are, who you know have disabilities 274 00:11:29,579 --> 00:11:31,750 who are using GNOME for every day. 275 00:11:31,750 --> 00:11:34,603 And one of those is a person with visual impairment 276 00:11:34,603 --> 00:11:37,316 who uses GNOME to you know 277 00:11:37,316 --> 00:11:39,326 basically to use a computer and make a living 278 00:11:39,326 --> 00:11:40,941 but — as a developer — 279 00:11:40,941 --> 00:11:43,632 but we also have somebody who I think 280 00:11:43,632 --> 00:11:45,839 I should have looked this up before today 281 00:11:45,839 --> 00:11:49,284 I think he has cystic fibrosis and he's severely disabled 282 00:11:49,284 --> 00:11:52,736 and he's just thrilled that GNOME 3 makes it possible 283 00:11:52,736 --> 00:11:55,422 for him to use a computer at all by himself. 284 00:11:55,422 --> 00:11:58,296 So with GNOME 3 he can, he says he can, 285 00:11:58,296 --> 00:12:00,487 you know he can search on the Internet 286 00:12:00,487 --> 00:12:02,315 for music videos and talk with his friends. 287 00:12:02,315 --> 00:12:04,440 And he never thought that he'd be able to do that by himself. 288 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:06,524 So accessibility means a lot of things. 289 00:12:06,524 --> 00:12:09,887 For us it means you know we will, we definitely 290 00:12:09,887 --> 00:12:14,174 want to push forward making our desktop usable by everybody 291 00:12:14,174 --> 00:12:18,309 partcularly people with particular disabilities like blindness. 292 00:12:18,309 --> 00:12:22,447 So the other thing that you're very interested in 293 00:12:22,447 --> 00:12:25,693 is women in computing 294 00:12:25,693 --> 00:12:28,367 and I believe that’s the Ada Initiative 295 00:12:28,367 --> 00:12:29,984 that you’re associated with. 296 00:12:29,984 --> 00:12:31,095 Could you tell our viewers 297 00:12:31,095 --> 00:12:32,953 a little more about that? 298 00:12:32,953 --> 00:12:33,810 Yeah I’d love to and 299 00:12:33,810 --> 00:12:35,253 it’s actually two things 300 00:12:35,253 --> 00:12:36,648 and I think one led me 301 00:12:36,648 --> 00:12:38,179 to the other. The first one is 302 00:12:38,179 --> 00:12:39,682 the GNOME Outreach Program 303 00:12:39,682 --> 00:12:41,677 for Women and Google is a sponsor 304 00:12:41,677 --> 00:12:43,602 of the program and we’re so 305 00:12:43,602 --> 00:12:45,284 grateful that Google sponsors interns 306 00:12:45,284 --> 00:12:48,105 in our community 307 00:12:48,105 --> 00:12:49,198 because what our program does 308 00:12:49,198 --> 00:12:51,313 is we specifically invite women 309 00:12:51,313 --> 00:12:53,985 to apply and take on — 310 00:12:53,985 --> 00:12:56,641 it’s inspired by Google Summer of Code actually 311 00:12:56,641 --> 00:12:58,631 — and it encourages them to come into projects. 312 00:12:58,631 --> 00:13:00,349 They don’t need to be [into?] 313 00:13:00,349 --> 00:13:01,677 development although many of them are 314 00:13:01,677 --> 00:13:02,952 we have marketing interns, 315 00:13:02,952 --> 00:13:07,234 design interns, you know, documentation interns. 316 00:13:07,234 --> 00:13:08,316 And what these women do 317 00:13:08,316 --> 00:13:09,182 is that they come in, 318 00:13:09,182 --> 00:13:10,051 and in order to apply 319 00:13:10,051 --> 00:13:11,678 you must have made contributions already 320 00:13:11,678 --> 00:13:13,381 into the project so basically 321 00:13:13,381 --> 00:13:15,912 it specifically invites women to come 322 00:13:15,912 --> 00:13:17,912 and participate in our community 323 00:13:17,912 --> 00:13:19,920 and tells them how to get started. 324 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:21,838 And in order to even submit the application 325 00:13:21,838 --> 00:13:23,402 you have to make contacts with people, 326 00:13:23,402 --> 00:13:25,283 talk to them, figure out, you know, 327 00:13:25,283 --> 00:13:27,041 what the needs are in the project 328 00:13:27,041 --> 00:13:29,372 and make a real fix. 329 00:13:29,372 --> 00:13:31,514 So the program’s been really successful 330 00:13:31,514 --> 00:13:34,712 and what we’ve done is basically systematically addressed 331 00:13:34,712 --> 00:13:36,054 all of those reasons why 332 00:13:36,054 --> 00:13:37,615 we think women are excluded 333 00:13:37,615 --> 00:13:39,335 or have traditionally not been present in the 334 00:13:39,335 --> 00:13:40,850 Free and Open Source Software community. 335 00:13:40,850 --> 00:13:42,989 And at GNOME it’s been tremendously successful: 336 00:13:42,989 --> 00:13:44,605 a very high percentage of the women 337 00:13:44,605 --> 00:13:46,747 that participate in our programs 338 00:13:46,747 --> 00:13:48,331 stay in our community. 339 00:13:48,331 --> 00:13:50,827 I think, there’s a number that — 340 00:13:50,827 --> 00:13:51,858 I think it’s something like 341 00:13:51,858 --> 00:13:55,383 40% of the women who participated in, uh, 342 00:13:55,383 --> 00:13:56,687 two rounds ago 343 00:13:56,687 --> 00:13:58,159 and the round before that 344 00:13:58,159 --> 00:13:59,511 — not only stayed in our community 345 00:13:59,511 --> 00:14:00,889 but were active in outreach. 346 00:14:00,889 --> 00:14:02,786 So they were mentors, 347 00:14:02,786 --> 00:14:04,094 they were speaking 348 00:14:04,094 --> 00:14:05,692 on behalf of GNOME to get more people involved 349 00:14:05,692 --> 00:14:07,394 because they had such a good experience. 350 00:14:07,394 --> 00:14:08,536 And so it’s this kind of thing and 351 00:14:08,536 --> 00:14:12,242 the GNOME community has changed so much since I first became involved in it 352 00:14:12,242 --> 00:14:14,484 many years ago where now I go to a conference 353 00:14:14,484 --> 00:14:15,805 and there are women there. 354 00:14:15,805 --> 00:14:18,155 And not only that, there’s a supportive community 355 00:14:18,155 --> 00:14:19,753 where, you know, sometimes when 356 00:14:19,753 --> 00:14:21,533 I have a bad day 357 00:14:21,533 --> 00:14:24,186 I posted a blog recently where I had spoken 358 00:14:24,186 --> 00:14:26,013 on a panel at South by Southwest [SXSW] 359 00:14:26,013 --> 00:14:30,764 and my discussion was so intellectual and high level 360 00:14:30,764 --> 00:14:32,701 — but I posted a photo of me 361 00:14:32,701 --> 00:14:34,686 and the other three panelists and 362 00:14:34,686 --> 00:14:38,584 somebody commented on a specific part of my anatomy 363 00:14:38,584 --> 00:14:39,853 oh 364 00:14:39,853 --> 00:14:41,924 and it shocked me and I remembered — 365 00:14:41,924 --> 00:14:43,179 That is gross. 366 00:14:43,179 --> 00:14:47,060 “Oh! That is why I don’t post photos of myself generally!” 367 00:14:47,060 --> 00:14:48,189 But it was like 368 00:14:48,189 --> 00:14:51,408 “I’m already a seasoned member of our community, 369 00:14:51,408 --> 00:14:54,017 one bad comment isn’t going to turn me away.” 370 00:14:54,017 --> 00:14:55,208 But five years ago, 371 00:14:55,208 --> 00:14:57,677 I maybe would have just gone away. 372 00:14:57,677 --> 00:14:59,293 But I knew that I could go to the 373 00:14:59,293 --> 00:15:02,199 women’s outreach forum on the GNOME server 374 00:15:02,199 --> 00:15:03,794 and I — you know, on the IRC channel — 375 00:15:03,794 --> 00:15:04,889 and we all talked about it and 376 00:15:04,889 --> 00:15:06,485 three other people said 377 00:15:06,485 --> 00:15:08,525 “I had that happen to me last week” 378 00:15:08,525 --> 00:15:10,517 and it’s unfortunate that it’s so common 379 00:15:10,517 --> 00:15:12,179 but we’ve created infrastructure, 380 00:15:12,179 --> 00:15:13,745 we’ve created ways that we can talk about it 381 00:15:13,745 --> 00:15:15,145 that allows women to cope and understand 382 00:15:15,145 --> 00:15:18,222 that our community is more valuable and 383 00:15:18,222 --> 00:15:20,485 not just represented by the few bad actors. 384 00:15:20,485 --> 00:15:24,183 So the GNOME Outreach Program which is the fantastic 385 00:15:24,183 --> 00:15:28,187 and Marina who is actually at Red Hat 386 00:15:28,187 --> 00:15:30,290 and she does this and she’s amazing, 387 00:15:30,290 --> 00:15:32,393 she’s the one who spearheads this effort, 388 00:15:32,393 --> 00:15:33,118 it’s incredible. 389 00:15:33,118 --> 00:15:33,930 You’re laughing? 390 00:15:33,930 --> 00:15:36,086 No, I’ve actually interviewed Marina, 391 00:15:36,086 --> 00:15:37,629 if people want to look back 392 00:15:37,629 --> 00:15:39,841 you can find an interview with her 393 00:15:39,841 --> 00:15:41,339 on exactly this topic. 394 00:15:41,339 --> 00:15:43,898 Oh OK, so I’ll skip to the Ada Initiative. 395 00:15:43,898 --> 00:15:44,868 Yeah. 396 00:15:44,868 --> 00:15:46,617 which is — so I’ve just become an advisor 397 00:15:46,617 --> 00:15:48,588 to that because I went to a conference 398 00:15:48,588 --> 00:15:51,985 in Melbourne when I was there for Linux Conf Australia 399 00:15:51,985 --> 00:15:54,824 They had this — it’s called AdaCamp 400 00:15:54,824 --> 00:15:56,356 and I was astounded by 401 00:15:56,356 --> 00:15:59,281 how many articulate amazing interesting women 402 00:15:59,281 --> 00:16:00,204 there were who had so much more 403 00:16:00,204 --> 00:16:02,757 information about women in technology 404 00:16:02,757 --> 00:16:04,009 than I ever had. 405 00:16:04,009 --> 00:16:05,951 I’ve been interviewed as a woman in Free Software 406 00:16:05,951 --> 00:16:08,450 in the past and [laughs] — 407 00:16:08,450 --> 00:16:10,669 following the old axiom that 408 00:16:10,669 --> 00:16:11,616 in order to be an expert 409 00:16:11,616 --> 00:16:12,637 about women in Free Software 410 00:16:12,637 --> 00:16:14,936 you just had to be one. 411 00:16:14,936 --> 00:16:15,577 Yeah. 412 00:16:15,577 --> 00:16:16,125 [laughs] 413 00:16:16,125 --> 00:16:19,190 So they — but these women had statistics 414 00:16:19,190 --> 00:16:20,648 and they had real knowledge 415 00:16:20,648 --> 00:16:24,050 and they had amazing recommendations of things that 416 00:16:24,050 --> 00:16:27,476 Free Software projects and software companies 417 00:16:27,476 --> 00:16:30,534 can do to make sure that 418 00:16:30,534 --> 00:16:33,595 they’re actually encouraging women to participate. 419 00:16:33,595 --> 00:16:35,906 And so that’s why I decided to affiliate with them, 420 00:16:35,906 --> 00:16:36,608 and to support them. 421 00:16:36,608 --> 00:16:37,571 Their work is incredible. 422 00:16:37,571 --> 00:16:39,074 They’ve helped create 423 00:16:39,074 --> 00:16:40,893 codes of conduct for conferences, 424 00:16:40,893 --> 00:16:42,779 they’ve helped deal with problems as they arise, 425 00:16:42,779 --> 00:16:44,369 they’ve helped draw attention to the issue 426 00:16:44,369 --> 00:16:46,152 in the field, so it’s great, 427 00:16:46,152 --> 00:16:47,258 the Ada Initiative. 428 00:16:47,258 --> 00:16:48,190 That’s really good, 429 00:16:48,190 --> 00:16:49,597 so that’s the search term if 430 00:16:49,597 --> 00:16:52,414 people want to find out more about it. 431 00:16:52,414 --> 00:16:54,878 Because we could do with 432 00:16:54,878 --> 00:16:56,482 more women in engineering, 433 00:16:56,482 --> 00:16:58,986 and in the Free Software communities. 434 00:16:58,986 --> 00:17:01,291 So the other interesting thing that 435 00:17:01,291 --> 00:17:04,687 you deal with is you have a very interesting 436 00:17:04,687 --> 00:17:06,632 perspective on Free Software 437 00:17:06,632 --> 00:17:08,929 as it relates to medical devices, 438 00:17:08,929 --> 00:17:10,870 why that's really important. 439 00:17:10,870 --> 00:17:12,697 I don't want you to go into any specific details 440 00:17:12,697 --> 00:17:15,245 but maybe you could explain to our viewers 441 00:17:15,245 --> 00:17:18,439 a little bit about how important that is. 442 00:17:18,439 --> 00:17:20,693 Yeah, I don't know how to explain it 443 00:17:20,693 --> 00:17:21,788 without at least getting into 444 00:17:21,788 --> 00:17:24,402 the specific story of me 445 00:17:24,402 --> 00:17:25,950 but I'll make it really short 446 00:17:25,950 --> 00:17:28,790 and it's that I have a heart condition 447 00:17:28,790 --> 00:17:32,789 I have a very big heart 448 00:17:32,789 --> 00:17:34,713 and I'm fine, I have no symptoms 449 00:17:34,713 --> 00:17:36,789 but I am at a very high risk of suddenly dying. 450 00:17:36,789 --> 00:17:37,886 And I was already a lawyer 451 00:17:37,886 --> 00:17:39,686 at the Software Freedom Law Center 452 00:17:39,686 --> 00:17:41,217 when I was told that I needed 453 00:17:41,217 --> 00:17:42,382 a pacemaker/defibrillator 454 00:17:42,382 --> 00:17:45,756 so — and I'd been a programmer back in college 455 00:17:45,756 --> 00:17:47,872 — so my first question was 456 00:17:47,872 --> 00:17:49,781 "Well, what is the software on the device?" 457 00:17:49,781 --> 00:17:52,194 And the doctor not only had no answer for me 458 00:17:52,194 --> 00:17:54,150 he'd never thought about that question before. 459 00:17:54,150 --> 00:17:56,380 The medical device rep came in 460 00:17:56,380 --> 00:17:57,688 who happened to be there that day 461 00:17:57,688 --> 00:17:59,385 had also never thought about that question 462 00:17:59,385 --> 00:18:00,539 and had no answer. 463 00:18:00,539 --> 00:18:06,447 And so I began this big discovery that 464 00:18:06,447 --> 00:18:08,441 to make a long story short 465 00:18:08,441 --> 00:18:09,721 brought me to the realisation that 466 00:18:09,721 --> 00:18:11,969 actually the Food and Drug Administration 467 00:18:11,969 --> 00:18:13,197 is not reviewing 468 00:18:13,197 --> 00:18:15,143 the source code on these devices 469 00:18:15,143 --> 00:18:19,103 because they're not asking for the 470 00:18:19,103 --> 00:18:20,074 source code to review it, 471 00:18:20,074 --> 00:18:22,137 they actually don't even keep a copy. 472 00:18:22,137 --> 00:18:23,161 So there are all these issues 473 00:18:23,161 --> 00:18:25,448 with the fact that we're all relying on these 474 00:18:25,448 --> 00:18:27,175 medical device companies 475 00:18:27,175 --> 00:18:30,183 for creating and testing their own software. 476 00:18:30,183 --> 00:18:32,191 Which, you know, these companies 477 00:18:32,191 --> 00:18:33,108 have an interest in making sure that 478 00:18:33,108 --> 00:18:34,726 nobody dies 479 00:18:34,726 --> 00:18:39,135 but when you have something that's 480 00:18:39,135 --> 00:18:40,121 being implanted into your body 481 00:18:40,121 --> 00:18:41,998 and being literally screwed into your heart 482 00:18:41,998 --> 00:18:43,463 Yousort of start to realise that 483 00:18:43,463 --> 00:18:45,279 "Well, why can't I look at the software 484 00:18:45,279 --> 00:18:46,723 that's on this device?" 485 00:18:46,723 --> 00:18:48,382 And not only that, I actually 486 00:18:48,382 --> 00:18:50,183 even offered to sign an NDA, I wasn't even 487 00:18:50,183 --> 00:18:52,043 asking "please publish it to the world" 488 00:18:52,043 --> 00:18:53,140 I was just saying 489 00:18:53,140 --> 00:18:54,679 "I would feel a lot better personally 490 00:18:54,679 --> 00:18:56,508 if I could take a look at the code." 491 00:18:56,508 --> 00:18:58,418 And that was a non-starter with these 492 00:18:58,418 --> 00:18:59,700 medical device companies. 493 00:18:59,700 --> 00:19:01,124 So what I've started doing is 494 00:19:01,124 --> 00:19:02,166 in addition to the research about the 495 00:19:02,166 --> 00:19:03,810 legal ramifications and what the framework are 496 00:19:03,810 --> 00:19:05,906 are to just sort of start talking about it 497 00:19:05,906 --> 00:19:07,648 and sort of let people know 498 00:19:07,648 --> 00:19:09,371 that this is really a problem that 499 00:19:09,371 --> 00:19:12,194 the medical devices that we have right now fail. 500 00:19:12,194 --> 00:19:13,736 They're great, they're amazing devices 501 00:19:13,736 --> 00:19:15,001 but they have software in them 502 00:19:15,001 --> 00:19:16,245 and software has bugs. 503 00:19:16,245 --> 00:19:18,734 So over time they will fail and 504 00:19:18,734 --> 00:19:20,940 you know, just because software is available 505 00:19:20,940 --> 00:19:23,871 for review doesn't mean it will be 100% safe. 506 00:19:23,871 --> 00:19:25,328 It will also have bugs. 507 00:19:25,328 --> 00:19:26,828 But the chances are that if there are problems 508 00:19:26,828 --> 00:19:28,079 they'll be caught faster 509 00:19:28,079 --> 00:19:29,719 that anyone can fix them; 510 00:19:29,719 --> 00:19:31,417 all of the reasons why Free Software 511 00:19:31,417 --> 00:19:34,191 is so great to work on and so great to have 512 00:19:34,191 --> 00:19:35,699 in your company's products 513 00:19:35,699 --> 00:19:37,049 are exactly the same reasons why 514 00:19:37,049 --> 00:19:39,578 it makes so much more sense to have it in medical devices. 515 00:19:39,578 --> 00:19:40,443 But on top of that 516 00:19:40,443 --> 00:19:42,485 it's just an issue of public safety. 517 00:19:42,485 --> 00:19:44,630 So, you know, you can come at it 518 00:19:44,630 --> 00:19:47,193 from either just the sensible 519 00:19:47,193 --> 00:19:50,153 "these devices fail and instead of —" 520 00:19:50,153 --> 00:19:51,363 There are all these think tanks that 521 00:19:51,363 --> 00:19:53,845 are going around researching these devices 522 00:19:53,845 --> 00:19:54,912 and they are finding ways to 523 00:19:54,912 --> 00:19:56,815 show that they're maliciously hackable. 524 00:19:56,815 --> 00:19:59,895 And those same think tanks would be reviewing 525 00:19:59,895 --> 00:20:02,788 the source code line-by-line and finding problems 526 00:20:02,788 --> 00:20:04,239 so that they could be fixed. 527 00:20:04,239 --> 00:20:05,835 You know there's a tremendous amount 528 00:20:05,835 --> 00:20:07,070 of interest in this. 529 00:20:07,070 --> 00:20:08,435 And once you start thinking about your 530 00:20:08,435 --> 00:20:10,393 medical devices you think about all the software 531 00:20:10,393 --> 00:20:13,620 you rely on, it's not just my medical device, 532 00:20:13,620 --> 00:20:15,675 what about our voting machines? 533 00:20:15,675 --> 00:20:16,845 What about our cars? 534 00:20:16,845 --> 00:20:18,033 Our cars have been — there was a 535 00:20:18,033 --> 00:20:21,439 security exploit on cars where 536 00:20:21,439 --> 00:20:24,598 they could be remotely hacked into 537 00:20:24,598 --> 00:20:27,674 through the most amazing of ways 538 00:20:27,674 --> 00:20:32,434 and controlled: steered and accelerated 539 00:20:32,434 --> 00:20:34,186 and — just amazing stuff. 540 00:20:34,186 --> 00:20:38,268 So, you know, it's everything that we rely on, 541 00:20:38,268 --> 00:20:41,017 and all that software interacts together. 542 00:20:41,017 --> 00:20:43,551 So we need our software that we rely on 543 00:20:43,551 --> 00:20:46,620 to be, you know, to be Free and Open. 544 00:20:46,620 --> 00:20:49,028 We're building just so much infrastructure 545 00:20:49,028 --> 00:20:52,415 both, you know, in our hearts, in our bodies, 546 00:20:52,415 --> 00:20:56,395 but also in our society, our financial markets. 547 00:20:56,395 --> 00:20:59,504 The only way we'll create a good society 548 00:20:59,504 --> 00:21:00,892 going forward is by making sure that 549 00:21:00,892 --> 00:21:02,829 it's freedom and — 550 00:21:02,829 --> 00:21:04,465 As I like to often say 551 00:21:04,465 --> 00:21:07,675 eventually your doorknob is going to have a processor 552 00:21:07,675 --> 00:21:08,416 [laugh] 553 00:21:08,416 --> 00:21:11,808 running software and who controls the code in that? 554 00:21:11,808 --> 00:21:13,281 It will end up being extremely important 555 00:21:13,281 --> 00:21:14,965 going forward. 556 00:21:14,965 --> 00:21:17,480 So there's one final question I'd like to ask 557 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:19,168 — thank you so much for your time — 558 00:21:19,168 --> 00:21:23,435 but what I always like to ask people 559 00:21:23,435 --> 00:21:27,047 is for viewers who might not be currently in the 560 00:21:27,047 --> 00:21:29,022 Free Software community, 561 00:21:29,022 --> 00:21:30,590 who might be thinking about it: 562 00:21:30,590 --> 00:21:32,968 how did you get to where you are? 563 00:21:32,968 --> 00:21:36,689 So, you know, imagine that you're a young woman 564 00:21:36,689 --> 00:21:40,051 in your late teens or early twenties 565 00:21:40,051 --> 00:21:42,328 what advice would you give to someone like that 566 00:21:42,328 --> 00:21:45,116 to be able to end up in the august position 567 00:21:45,116 --> 00:21:47,883 of Director of the GNOME Foundation? 568 00:21:47,883 --> 00:21:51,008 People actually do ask me — especially law students — 569 00:21:51,008 --> 00:21:53,764 how they can emulate my career path 570 00:21:53,764 --> 00:21:55,699 and I tell them that I wish I was as organised 571 00:21:55,699 --> 00:21:57,703 as they are to even ask about it. 572 00:21:57,703 --> 00:21:59,392 I kind of, to be totally honest, 573 00:21:59,392 --> 00:22:01,742 just stumbled into these jobs. 574 00:22:01,742 --> 00:22:06,262 I would say that interest in technology for women 575 00:22:06,262 --> 00:22:07,779 happens very early. 576 00:22:07,779 --> 00:22:12,653 So I would say to all of you 577 00:22:12,653 --> 00:22:15,054 if you know of a little girl 578 00:22:15,054 --> 00:22:18,122 try and introduce them to some kind of technology 579 00:22:18,122 --> 00:22:20,406 because once you get past a certain age 580 00:22:20,406 --> 00:22:23,576 for many girls it's too late. 581 00:22:23,576 --> 00:22:25,437 At the AdaCamp we had a session 582 00:22:25,437 --> 00:22:28,984 where we talked about how we could get 583 00:22:28,984 --> 00:22:30,845 more high school girls interested in technology 584 00:22:30,845 --> 00:22:32,747 and I was like "hang on, let's stop for a second 585 00:22:32,747 --> 00:22:34,307 and let's go around the room really fast 586 00:22:34,307 --> 00:22:36,515 and say what we think our earliest positive 587 00:22:36,515 --> 00:22:38,314 technology experience was that we think was 588 00:22:38,314 --> 00:22:39,553 the most formative." 589 00:22:39,553 --> 00:22:41,304 So that we could sort of think of how to 590 00:22:41,304 --> 00:22:43,294 create that for other girls. 591 00:22:43,294 --> 00:22:44,925 And almost everybody as I went around 592 00:22:44,925 --> 00:22:47,428 had a parent, notably a father, 593 00:22:47,428 --> 00:22:49,099 who had been interested in computers 594 00:22:49,099 --> 00:22:51,605 and who had encouraged us at a very early age. 595 00:22:51,605 --> 00:22:53,687 So I would say that that — I had a father 596 00:22:53,687 --> 00:22:55,625 who was an engineer 597 00:22:55,625 --> 00:22:57,419 and he encouraged me from the get-go 598 00:22:57,419 --> 00:23:00,389 and I'm very old in Free Software terms 599 00:23:00,389 --> 00:23:03,755 so he encouraged me on Prodigy and Compuserve 600 00:23:03,755 --> 00:23:06,534 and I had a computer from the earliest days 601 00:23:06,534 --> 00:23:07,753 where I was running BASIC 602 00:23:07,753 --> 00:23:12,803 and he looked at my 10 PRINT "KAREN RULES" 603 00:23:12,803 --> 00:23:15,387 and said you know 604 00:23:15,387 --> 00:23:16,652 — and GOTO 10 — 605 00:23:16,652 --> 00:23:19,123 and he said "you know what else you can do with this? 606 00:23:19,123 --> 00:23:20,198 You can do this, you can do that." 607 00:23:20,198 --> 00:23:21,528 So I would say that was the earliest thing 608 00:23:21,528 --> 00:23:23,251 and then I went to engineering school 609 00:23:23,251 --> 00:23:25,214 because I was on this technology path 610 00:23:25,214 --> 00:23:27,396 and I worked in a computer lab 611 00:23:27,396 --> 00:23:28,930 where there were no women 612 00:23:28,930 --> 00:23:31,155 and I went into the director and I said 613 00:23:31,155 --> 00:23:34,450 "You have no women in this lab and all these women 614 00:23:34,450 --> 00:23:35,990 are walking in and it's so hostile 615 00:23:35,990 --> 00:23:38,144 and they just leave! It's horrible. Can you do something?" 616 00:23:38,144 --> 00:23:39,486 And he said "You're hired!" 617 00:23:39,486 --> 00:23:43,128 And that's how I wound up learning about computers 618 00:23:43,128 --> 00:23:45,294 and spending all my time in the computer lab. 619 00:23:45,294 --> 00:23:48,092 And so it's quite lucky in part. 620 00:23:48,092 --> 00:23:49,216 And then I went to law school 621 00:23:49,216 --> 00:23:52,098 and I didn't even know who Eben Moglen was 622 00:23:52,098 --> 00:23:54,824 and I happened to be in his class 623 00:23:54,824 --> 00:23:56,811 on perspectives on modern legal thought. 624 00:23:56,811 --> 00:24:00,751 And I was so moved by — he's an incredible speaker 625 00:24:00,751 --> 00:24:03,168 and I was just so moved by his teaching — 626 00:24:03,168 --> 00:24:04,873 that he was my favourite professor in law school. 627 00:24:04,873 --> 00:24:07,954 And then I went off and did securities law! 628 00:24:07,954 --> 00:24:10,342 And I decided — I got fed up and I quit 629 00:24:10,342 --> 00:24:11,084 and he heard I'd quit 630 00:24:11,084 --> 00:24:13,106 and he'd started the Software Freedom Law Center 631 00:24:13,106 --> 00:24:16,608 and asked me if I wanted to learn about non-profit law 632 00:24:16,608 --> 00:24:18,115 and I was like "yes!" 633 00:24:18,115 --> 00:24:19,657 But I hadn't actually thought about Free Software 634 00:24:19,657 --> 00:24:21,223 that much since the 90s. 635 00:24:21,223 --> 00:24:22,377 Even though I thought it was cool. 636 00:24:22,377 --> 00:24:24,648 And then all of a sudden I had the opportunity 637 00:24:24,648 --> 00:24:26,428 to be in the best spot in the world. 638 00:24:26,428 --> 00:24:29,166 And over time I became really passionate about Free Software. 639 00:24:29,166 --> 00:24:31,315 And then I had the medical issue happen to me. 640 00:24:31,315 --> 00:24:33,120 And all of a sudden my personal and professional 641 00:24:33,120 --> 00:24:34,310 were all combined. 642 00:24:34,310 --> 00:24:36,361 And I've just been very very lucky. 643 00:24:36,361 --> 00:24:38,203 So I would say as an advice to someone 644 00:24:38,203 --> 00:24:39,310 who's starting out: 645 00:24:39,310 --> 00:24:43,420 I would say "First, be open to new experiences 646 00:24:43,420 --> 00:24:46,548 don't think that the next choice you're going to make 647 00:24:46,548 --> 00:24:48,622 is forever. 648 00:24:48,622 --> 00:24:50,799 And try to do good work in the world. 649 00:24:50,799 --> 00:24:52,389 It has good ramifications 650 00:24:52,389 --> 00:24:55,472 and it helps you out in the end too." 651 00:24:55,472 --> 00:24:57,026 Thank you so much Karen. 652 00:24:57,026 --> 00:24:59,405 That was really kind of you to spend the time. 653 00:24:59,405 --> 00:25:00,431 I appreciate it. 654 00:25:00,431 --> 00:25:01,534 Thanks for interviewing me. 655 00:25:01,534 --> 00:25:03,000 Thanks.