0:00:01.985,0:00:03.928 Hi I'm Jeremy Allison 0:00:03.928,0:00:06.711 with Google's Open Source Program Office 0:00:06.711,0:00:08.852 and I'm here at the Free Software Foundation's 0:00:08.852,0:00:12.189 LibrePlanet conference here in Boston. 0:00:12.189,0:00:15.662 And I'm very lucky to be here with Karen Sandler 0:00:15.662,0:00:18.952 who is the Executive Director of the GNOME Foundation. 0:00:18.952,0:00:20.013 Welcome Karen. 0:00:20.013,0:00:22.484 Thanks Jeremy. [laughs] 0:00:22.484,0:00:25.736 So Karen originally was a lawyer 0:00:25.736,0:00:28.320 at the Software Freedom Law Center 0:00:28.320,0:00:30.917 and then moved over to being the Executive Director 0:00:30.917,0:00:32.132 of the GNOME Foundation 0:00:32.132,0:00:33.981 taking over from Stormy Peters 0:00:33.981,0:00:36.264 who I interviewed a few years ago. 0:00:36.264,0:00:37.527 So Karen, could you tell us 0:00:37.527,0:00:39.614 a little bit more about the GNOME Foundation 0:00:39.614,0:00:40.876 and what it is that you do for 0:00:40.876,0:00:42.228 Free Software? 0:00:42.228,0:00:44.425 Sure, and actually I am still a lawyer 0:00:44.425,0:00:47.418 so you made it sound like I was a lawyer 0:00:47.418,0:00:49.520 and maybe people would like me better 0:00:49.520,0:00:51.070 if I weren't still a lawyer 0:00:51.070,0:00:52.666 but I am. 0:00:52.666,0:00:55.505 Actually the legal work that I do now 0:00:55.505,0:00:56.704 is almost entirely pro bono work 0:00:56.704,0:00:57.930 at the Software Freedom Law Center still 0:00:57.930,0:00:59.360 even though I no longer work there 0:00:59.360,0:01:01.391 and also for Conservancy 0:01:01.391,0:01:03.411 and also for QuestionCopyright.org 0:01:03.411,0:01:06.183 and I've also just recently have become 0:01:06.183,0:01:07.405 an advisor of the Ada Initiative 0:01:07.405,0:01:08.734 which I'm really excited about. 0:01:08.734,0:01:10.241 But you asked about the GNOME Foundation 0:01:10.241,0:01:12.099 which I'm the Executive Director of 0:01:12.099,0:01:16.992 and I'm the luckiest lawyer in the world 0:01:16.992,0:01:19.261 to have that job. [laughs] 0:01:19.261,0:01:20.915 What exactly do you want to know about it? 0:01:20.915,0:01:22.632 You asked a good question and I got distracted 0:01:22.632,0:01:25.299 by talking about my legal background. 0:01:25.299,0:01:27.393 OK, so, for people who may not know 0:01:27.393,0:01:33.161 GNOME is a Free Software desktop for, um, 0:01:33.161,0:01:37.473 it shipped on most Linux distributions as the default desktop 0:01:37.473,0:01:39.566 or as I am at the LibrePlanet conference 0:01:39.566,0:01:40.315 [laugh] 0:01:40.315,0:01:42.227 perhaps I should say GNU/Linux distributions. 0:01:42.227,0:01:45.727 — as the default desktop, and 0:01:45.727,0:01:47.908 it's, if people are used to it 0:01:47.908,0:01:52.655 it's the visual interface that you would see if you're using the desktop 0:01:52.655,0:01:54.316 so it's what drives the windows 0:01:54.316,0:01:55.229 the mouse etc. 0:01:55.229,0:01:56.994 It's the visual look of it. 0:01:56.994,0:02:00.871 So what makes GNOME different from other desktop software? 0:02:00.871,0:02:04.738 Yeah, and I'd also add that GNOME is also the backbone of 0:02:04.738,0:02:08.194 quite of number of GNU/Linux distributions. 0:02:08.210,0:02:14.875 There's a lot of GNOME in Ubuntu and also Linux Mint 0:02:14.875,0:02:18.160 and the OpenSuSE distribution 0:02:18.160,0:02:19.576 has GNOME 3 as a default. 0:02:19.576,0:02:20.414 Don't forget Fedora! 0:02:20.414,0:02:22.391 And Fedora has GNOME — 0:02:22.391,0:02:23.815 yeah, well I mean I'm going through it — 0:02:23.815,0:02:26.945 And also — so Fedora and also 0:02:26.945,0:02:29.893 Debian uses GNOME 3 as default as well. 0:02:29.893,0:02:34.408 So it is actually ah pretty well deployed. 0:02:34.408,0:02:35.435 What makes GNOME different 0:02:35.435,0:02:36.710 from other desktops, you ask, 0:02:36.710,0:02:40.309 is, well, it's just so pretty! 0:02:40.309,0:02:42.411 So when I was sitting there as a lawyer 0:02:42.411,0:02:43.949 at the Software Freedom Law Center 0:02:43.949,0:02:45.123 and GNOME 3 came out 0:02:45.123,0:02:46.724 I was astounded. 0:02:46.724,0:02:48.751 I hadn't really thought too much about 0:02:48.751,0:02:51.381 the step before except to be frustrated 0:02:51.381,0:02:57.867 that it was hard to explain to non-GNU/Linux users 0:02:57.867,0:02:59.326 why I cared so much that 0:02:59.326,0:03:01.295 I was using kind of an uglier desktop 0:03:01.295,0:03:02.802 or you know I used my old computer 0:03:02.802,0:03:05.487 and why freedom mattered so much. 0:03:05.487,0:03:09.051 And when I saw GNOME 3 I was bowled over. 0:03:09.051,0:03:12.658 It was so sleek and pretty and beautiful 0:03:12.658,0:03:14.626 And I felt like it was exactly the thing 0:03:14.626,0:03:17.576 that we need to bridge the gap to new users 0:03:17.576,0:03:21.097 and to users who are just coming into this space. 0:03:21.097,0:03:24.028 I mean, through my medical devices advocacy 0:03:24.028,0:03:26.338 — and we may talk about that after, I'm not sure — 0:03:26.338,0:03:28.743 I come across a lot of people 0:03:28.743,0:03:30.554 who are Mac users 0:03:30.554,0:03:33.316 or people who don't really know too much about 0:03:33.316,0:03:34.816 Free and Open Source Software 0:03:34.816,0:03:36.588 and the biggest complaint that they have 0:03:36.588,0:03:38.090 when they start looking into it 0:03:38.090,0:03:39.920 is that it's so difficult to use. 0:03:39.920,0:03:44.673 And so what GNOME, and GNOME 3 in particular, has 0:03:44.673,0:03:48.914 is that it's just so easy and so beautiful. 0:03:48.914,0:03:50.972 So I'm really proud to be affiliated with it 0:03:50.972,0:03:52.906 and I think that it's a great strategy. 0:03:52.906,0:03:54.458 And we're about to release GNOME 3.4 0:03:54.458,0:03:56.376 probably by the time this is posted 0:03:56.376,0:03:58.589 3.4 will probably be out, since it's just coming out on Wednesday 0:03:58.589,0:04:00.233 but there are a lot of amazing improvements 0:04:00.233,0:04:02.476 that are coming in with 3.4. 0:04:02.476,0:04:04.476 And it's only going to get better from there. 0:04:04.476,0:04:06.206 So I believe the GNOME 3 slogan is 0:04:06.206,0:04:08.184 'made of easy' 0:04:08.184,0:04:11.672 I thought it was made of software. 0:04:11.672,0:04:17.065 So one of the most popular GNU/Linux distributions, 0:04:17.065,0:04:19.422 or Linux distributions, is Ubuntu. 0:04:19.422,0:04:24.616 And Ubuntu has chosen to use its own separate interface 0:04:24.616,0:04:30.429 called Unity rather than sticking with the GNOME 3 shell. 0:04:30.429,0:04:34.590 So what was the— what's behind that? 0:04:34.590,0:04:39.203 And is there a chance that Unity can be unified 0:04:39.203,0:04:41.995 as it were? With the GNOME desktop? 0:04:41.995,0:04:43.127 I think that's a great question 0:04:43.127,0:04:47.600 and I don't mean to turn the tables too much here 0:04:47.600,0:04:50.689 but a lot of the decision to go to Unity 0:04:50.689,0:04:53.588 happened before I became Executive Director of GNOME. 0:04:53.588,0:04:55.171 I've only been Executive Director of GNOME 0:04:55.171,0:04:56.774 for seven or eight months now and 0:04:56.774,0:04:59.489 you I believe were an advisory board representative 0:04:59.489,0:05:00.788 during that time. 0:05:00.788,0:05:02.187 [laughter] 0:05:02.187,0:05:03.478 Well thank you. 0:05:03.478,0:05:06.726 But what I guess what is going on in the GNU/Linux space 0:05:06.726,0:05:08.579 is that we're realising just what I said before 0:05:08.579,0:05:09.929 which is just that we have a real challenge 0:05:09.929,0:05:13.723 to reach new users and to reach unsophisticated — 0:05:13.723,0:05:15.426 er, I think saying 'unsophisticated' 0:05:15.426,0:05:16.830 that's really talking down to these users. 0:05:16.830,0:05:20.235 I don't mean it like that, I mean non-power users. 0:05:20.235,0:05:22.810 Not — you know, users that aren't developers 0:05:22.810,0:05:26.825 and sort of understanding the fact that if Free Software is going to be successful 0:05:26.825,0:05:29.102 we have to reach a much wider audience. 0:05:29.102,0:05:32.428 And I think that's also what Canonical is trying to do with Unity. 0:05:32.428,0:05:34.909 And so both of these efforts are actually 0:05:34.909,0:05:36.561 building on the same technology. 0:05:36.561,0:05:40.254 So Canonical is still very active in the GNOME community. 0:05:40.254,0:05:42.163 They're still a member of our advisory board and 0:05:42.163,0:05:44.860 you'll see that the GNOME 3.2 press release 0:05:44.860,0:05:46.601 had a quote from Canonical on it as well. 0:05:46.601,0:05:48.689 So there's a lot of work being done together, 0:05:48.689,0:05:51.113 and there's a lot of you know a lot of sharing 0:05:51.113,0:05:52.894 and a lot of combined efforts 0:05:52.894,0:05:54.114 which I think is really good. 0:05:54.114,0:05:55.685 And at the end of the day 0:05:55.685,0:05:58.196 there are two different competing desktop experiences 0:05:58.196,0:06:01.258 but that share a lot of technology. 0:06:01.258,0:06:06.022 So there are actually three different competing desktops. 0:06:06.022,0:06:07.335 Well there's more than that! 0:06:07.335,0:06:10.750 Well this is true, but the other popular one is KDE 0:06:10.750,0:06:12.525 which I believe these days just stands for 0:06:12.525,0:06:14.416 the K Desktop Environment. 0:06:14.416,0:06:17.723 Is there a chance do you guys work together with 0:06:17.723,0:06:20.783 the other Linux desktop which is KDE 0:06:20.783,0:06:23.106 and do you colloborate on technology? 0:06:23.106,0:06:25.814 Well actually I would think that if we're going to 0:06:25.814,0:06:28.353 talk about the main desktop environments 0:06:28.353,0:06:31.310 I think we if I mean we talk about GNOME 0:06:31.310,0:06:33.109 and we talk about Unity 0:06:33.109,0:06:35.660 we should also talk about Linux Mint 0:06:35.660,0:06:37.579 which is built on GNOME 3 technologies 0:06:37.579,0:06:39.657 but is a distinctive environment. 0:06:39.657,0:06:43.093 And then there are a whole other, a whole other host 0:06:43.093,0:06:45.602 of desktops that people like because 0:06:45.602,0:06:47.678 they're tailored to their particular needs. 0:06:47.678,0:06:50.119 And that's great. That's one of the benefits of Free Software 0:06:50.119,0:06:52.577 is that we can take the technology that people make 0:06:52.577,0:06:55.791 and refine it and make it into something that we want. 0:06:55.791,0:07:01.426 KDE actually pre-dates GNOME as a project. 0:07:01.426,0:07:02.797 There was a licensing problem when 0:07:02.797,0:07:05.681 KDE was originally launched about 15 years ago 0:07:05.681,0:07:10.754 and after about six months the — Miguel de Icaza 0:07:10.754,0:07:14.235 and Federico and other early GNOME developers 0:07:14.235,0:07:15.998 decided that they wanted to fix that licensing problem 0:07:15.998,0:07:17.588 and make a truly free desktop. 0:07:17.588,0:07:20.225 And so two ultimately free desktops were born 0:07:20.225,0:07:21.916 and they've been competing ever since. 0:07:21.916,0:07:23.436 We do work with KDE quite a lot. 0:07:23.436,0:07:25.004 We've had a couple of desktop summits, 0:07:25.004,0:07:26.693 we do some hackfests together. 0:07:26.693,0:07:28.411 We're trying to increase areas of collaboration 0:07:28.411,0:07:30.972 whereever we can. 0:07:30.972,0:07:34.541 So um here's an interesting thing: 0:07:34.541,0:07:37.403 the desktop, the Linux desktop, is getting really pretty, 0:07:37.403,0:07:40.855 very easy to use, and yet 0:07:40.855,0:07:44.016 on the plane I was flying out here 0:07:44.016,0:07:47.673 I went to the bathroom and looked around. 0:07:47.673,0:07:50.895 There was one old guy using a laptop, 0:07:50.895,0:07:54.073 myself, who also had a laptop which I wasn't using, 0:07:54.073,0:07:57.230 another old guy who was using a laptop. 0:07:57.230,0:08:00.896 Every other person using a computer on that plane 0:08:00.896,0:08:04.016 was using a tablet PC, mainly an iPad. 0:08:04.016,0:08:08.588 What is GNOME doing to address the complete change 0:08:08.588,0:08:11.508 in computing that appears to be taking place 0:08:11.508,0:08:14.024 that desktop computing is for old people 0:08:14.024,0:08:15.854 and everyone else uses tablets? 0:08:15.854,0:08:17.786 That's a really good question. 0:08:17.786,0:08:19.945 I would actually say that a few years ago 0:08:19.945,0:08:21.405 if you looked around on a plane, 0:08:21.405,0:08:23.692 not that many people had laptops. 0:08:23.692,0:08:25.559 Some people had laptops but not that many. 0:08:25.559,0:08:28.303 And I think that largely, and this is actually just 0:08:28.303,0:08:31.561 I'm sort of stepping away from talking on behalf of GNOME here 0:08:31.561,0:08:35.184 I'm just saying that as an observer of technology in our society 0:08:35.184,0:08:38.016 that I think what a lot of these tablet devices are doing 0:08:38.016,0:08:40.503 are replacing a niche that we haven't had before. 0:08:40.503,0:08:42.650 So I think that people are doing things with those 0:08:42.650,0:08:45.228 with tablet computers that are not necessarily 0:08:45.228,0:08:48.297 replacing laptops but they're sort of you know 0:08:48.297,0:08:50.654 addressing a whole new need 0:08:50.654,0:08:52.649 that phones were sort of starting to get at 0:08:52.649,0:08:57.627 but weren't quite, so I think that that makes it a little more complicated. 0:08:57.627,0:09:00.338 I do think that are— that technology is changing 0:09:00.338,0:09:02.327 and the way that we think about it is changing. 0:09:02.327,0:09:04.432 And the number of people who expect access 0:09:04.432,0:09:05.617 to it have changed. 0:09:05.617,0:09:07.541 Which is why you know all of these pushes 0:09:07.541,0:09:11.348 in the GNU/Linux environments to make all of our interfaces 0:09:11.348,0:09:13.177 very easy to use are coming from. 0:09:13.177,0:09:15.597 Because we perceive the fact that people 0:09:15.597,0:09:18.528 and again my mother hates it when I talk about her 0:09:18.528,0:09:21.236 but five years ago she would have never used 0:09:21.236,0:09:22.950 a computer for anything! 0:09:22.950,0:09:24.963 I kept, every year I would try to do something 0:09:24.963,0:09:26.772 "Mom, let's put our recipes in, you know, 0:09:26.772,0:09:28.294 let's share information, you know!" 0:09:28.294,0:09:30.137 And nothing nothing nothing nothing nothing. 0:09:30.137,0:09:32.787 Now, she does everything. 0:09:32.787,0:09:35.092 I mean, it's just, basically technology has gotten to a point 0:09:35.092,0:09:37.432 her friends are started using it, everybody's started using it. 0:09:37.432,0:09:40.258 She, you know, so people who didn't use computers before 0:09:40.258,0:09:41.853 are using them and that means there's a whole 0:09:41.853,0:09:44.547 different kind of computer usage 0:09:44.547,0:09:47.029 that's being represented in these tablets. 0:09:47.029,0:09:49.072 And it's still early days for GNOME 3. 0:09:49.072,0:09:52.904 So basically we have gone and rebuilt GNOME as GNOME 3 0:09:52.904,0:09:55.473 and created this awesome beautiful desktop environment 0:09:55.473,0:09:58.266 and we'll have to see where it goes from here. 0:09:58.266,0:10:00.613 So I know there are efforts to bring it on to tablets. 0:10:00.613,0:10:02.847 There are efforts to bring it on to mobile space. 0:10:02.847,0:10:05.464 And hopefully we'll make sure they get somewhere. 0:10:05.464,0:10:06.937 But it takes time. 0:10:06.937,0:10:08.677 And Free Software unfortunately sometimes 0:10:08.677,0:10:09.864 because of its very nature 0:10:09.864,0:10:11.494 because they're community development 0:10:11.494,0:10:13.380 because often they're non-profit driven 0:10:13.380,0:10:15.845 takes a little longer sometimes. 0:10:15.845,0:10:17.091 But I hope we'll get there. 0:10:17.091,0:10:19.356 So your talk today was actually about 0:10:19.356,0:10:22.395 accessibility on the GNOME 3 desktop. 0:10:22.395,0:10:25.835 Could you describe for able-bodied viewers 0:10:25.835,0:10:29.487 what accessibility on a desktop means? 0:10:29.487,0:10:33.410 Yeah well as somebody pointed out in the question section of the talk 0:10:33.410,0:10:35.519 accessibility means a lot of things 0:10:35.519,0:10:36.702 and it means a lot of different things 0:10:36.702,0:10:38.621 to a lot of different people. 0:10:38.621,0:10:42.210 Accessibility to me means that people can use 0:10:42.210,0:10:44.288 computers regardless of disability. 0:10:44.288,0:10:47.703 So in the GNOME world or the things that GNOME is 0:10:47.703,0:10:50.784 most focused on, are visual impairments. 0:10:50.784,0:10:53.362 So, and that's partly for historical reasons 0:10:53.362,0:10:58.802 but we have a lot of effort in trying to get the 0:10:58.802,0:11:01.970 desktop much more usable by visually impaired users. 0:11:01.970,0:11:04.115 And I would say that that's a very large portion 0:11:04.115,0:11:06.497 of the accessibility efforts that we do. 0:11:06.497,0:11:08.239 But we do other efforts as well. 0:11:08.239,0:11:11.779 Actually we have a testimonial on our website now 0:11:11.779,0:11:13.932 because we've launched an accessibility campaign 0:11:13.932,0:11:15.357 with GNOME where we want to make 0:11:15.357,0:11:17.584 2012 the year of accessibility at GNOME 0:11:17.584,0:11:19.942 so you can donate on the GNOME website 0:11:19.942,0:11:22.460 and give to our campaign. 0:11:22.460,0:11:25.523 But along with the campaign to explain it to people 0:11:25.523,0:11:27.143 we've launched these testimonials 0:11:27.143,0:11:29.579 from people who are, who you know have disabilities 0:11:29.579,0:11:31.750 who are using GNOME for every day. 0:11:31.750,0:11:34.603 And one of those is a person with visual impairment 0:11:34.603,0:11:37.316 who uses GNOME to you know 0:11:37.316,0:11:39.326 basically to use a computer and make a living 0:11:39.326,0:11:40.941 but — as a developer — 0:11:40.941,0:11:43.632 but we also have somebody who I think 0:11:43.632,0:11:45.839 I should have looked this up before today 0:11:45.839,0:11:49.284 I think he has cystic fibrosis and he's severely disabled 0:11:49.284,0:11:52.736 and he's just thrilled that GNOME 3 makes it possible 0:11:52.736,0:11:55.422 for him to use a computer at all by himself. 0:11:55.422,0:11:58.296 So with GNOME 3 he can, he says he can, 0:11:58.296,0:12:00.487 you know he can search on the Internet 0:12:00.487,0:12:02.315 for music videos and talk with his friends. 0:12:02.315,0:12:04.440 And he never thought that he'd be able to do that by himself. 0:12:04.440,0:12:06.524 So accessibility means a lot of things. 0:12:06.524,0:12:09.887 For us it means you know we will, we definitely 0:12:09.887,0:12:14.174 want to push forward making our desktop usable by everybody 0:12:14.174,0:12:18.309 partcularly people with particular disabilities like blindness. 0:12:18.309,0:12:22.447 So the other thing that you're very interested in 0:12:22.447,0:12:25.693 is women in computing 0:12:25.693,0:12:28.367 and I believe that’s the Ada Initiative 0:12:28.367,0:12:29.984 that you’re associated with. 0:12:29.984,0:12:31.095 Could you tell our viewers 0:12:31.095,0:12:32.953 a little more about that? 0:12:32.953,0:12:33.810 Yeah I’d love to and 0:12:33.810,0:12:35.253 it’s actually two things 0:12:35.253,0:12:36.648 and I think one led me 0:12:36.648,0:12:38.179 to the other. The first one is 0:12:38.179,0:12:39.682 the GNOME Outreach Program 0:12:39.682,0:12:41.677 for Women and Google is a sponsor 0:12:41.677,0:12:43.602 of the program and we’re so 0:12:43.602,0:12:45.284 grateful that Google sponsors interns 0:12:45.284,0:12:48.105 in our community 0:12:48.105,0:12:49.198 because what our program does 0:12:49.198,0:12:51.313 is we specifically invite women 0:12:51.313,0:12:53.985 to apply and take on — 0:12:53.985,0:12:56.641 it’s inspired by Google Summer of Code actually 0:12:56.641,0:12:58.631 — and it encourages them to come into projects. 0:12:58.631,0:13:00.349 They don’t need to be [into?] 0:13:00.349,0:13:01.677 development although many of them are 0:13:01.677,0:13:02.952 we have marketing interns, 0:13:02.952,0:13:07.234 design interns, you know, documentation interns. 0:13:07.234,0:13:08.316 And what these women do 0:13:08.316,0:13:09.182 is that they come in, 0:13:09.182,0:13:10.051 and in order to apply 0:13:10.051,0:13:11.678 you must have made contributions already 0:13:11.678,0:13:13.381 into the project so basically 0:13:13.381,0:13:15.912 it specifically invites women to come 0:13:15.912,0:13:17.912 and participate in our community 0:13:17.912,0:13:19.920 and tells them how to get started. 0:13:19.920,0:13:21.838 And in order to even submit the application 0:13:21.838,0:13:23.402 you have to make contacts with people, 0:13:23.402,0:13:25.283 talk to them, figure out, you know, 0:13:25.283,0:13:27.041 what the needs are in the project 0:13:27.041,0:13:29.372 and make a real fix. 0:13:29.372,0:13:31.514 So the program’s been really successful 0:13:31.514,0:13:34.712 and what we’ve done is basically systematically addressed 0:13:34.712,0:13:36.054 all of those reasons why 0:13:36.054,0:13:37.615 we think women are excluded 0:13:37.615,0:13:39.335 or have traditionally not been present in the 0:13:39.335,0:13:40.850 Free and Open Source Software community. 0:13:40.850,0:13:42.989 And at GNOME it’s been tremendously successful: 0:13:42.989,0:13:44.605 a very high percentage of the women 0:13:44.605,0:13:46.747 that participate in our programs 0:13:46.747,0:13:48.331 stay in our community. 0:13:48.331,0:13:50.827 I think, there’s a number that — 0:13:50.827,0:13:51.858 I think it’s something like 0:13:51.858,0:13:55.383 40% of the women who participated in, uh, 0:13:55.383,0:13:56.687 two rounds ago 0:13:56.687,0:13:58.159 and the round before that 0:13:58.159,0:13:59.511 — not only stayed in our community 0:13:59.511,0:14:00.889 but were active in outreach. 0:14:00.889,0:14:02.786 So they were mentors, 0:14:02.786,0:14:04.094 they were speaking 0:14:04.094,0:14:05.692 on behalf of GNOME to get more people involved 0:14:05.692,0:14:07.394 because they had such a good experience. 0:14:07.394,0:14:08.536 And so it’s this kind of thing and 0:14:08.536,0:14:12.242 the GNOME community has changed so much since I first became involved in it 0:14:12.242,0:14:14.484 many years ago where now I go to a conference 0:14:14.484,0:14:15.805 and there are women there. 0:14:15.805,0:14:18.155 And not only that, there’s a supportive community 0:14:18.155,0:14:19.753 where, you know, sometimes when 0:14:19.753,0:14:21.533 I have a bad day 0:14:21.533,0:14:24.186 I posted a blog recently where I had spoken 0:14:24.186,0:14:26.013 on a panel at South by Southwest [SXSW] 0:14:26.013,0:14:30.764 and my discussion was so intellectual and high level 0:14:30.764,0:14:32.701 — but I posted a photo of me 0:14:32.701,0:14:34.686 and the other three panelists and 0:14:34.686,0:14:38.584 somebody commented on a specific part of my anatomy 0:14:38.584,0:14:39.853 oh 0:14:39.853,0:14:41.924 and it shocked me and I remembered — 0:14:41.924,0:14:43.179 That is gross. 0:14:43.179,0:14:47.060 “Oh! That is why I don’t post photos of myself generally!” 0:14:47.060,0:14:48.189 But it was like 0:14:48.189,0:14:51.408 “I’m already a seasoned member of our community, 0:14:51.408,0:14:54.017 one bad comment isn’t going to turn me away.” 0:14:54.017,0:14:55.208 But five years ago, 0:14:55.208,0:14:57.677 I maybe would have just gone away. 0:14:57.677,0:14:59.293 But I knew that I could go to the 0:14:59.293,0:15:02.199 women’s outreach forum on the GNOME server 0:15:02.199,0:15:03.794 and I — you know, on the IRC channel — 0:15:03.794,0:15:04.889 and we all talked about it and 0:15:04.889,0:15:06.485 three other people said 0:15:06.485,0:15:08.525 “I had that happen to me last week” 0:15:08.525,0:15:10.517 and it’s unfortunate that it’s so common 0:15:10.517,0:15:12.179 but we’ve created infrastructure, 0:15:12.179,0:15:13.745 we’ve created ways that we can talk about it 0:15:13.745,0:15:15.145 that allows women to cope and understand 0:15:15.145,0:15:18.222 that our community is more valuable and 0:15:18.222,0:15:20.485 not just represented by the few bad actors. 0:15:20.485,0:15:24.183 So the GNOME Outreach Program which is the fantastic 0:15:24.183,0:15:28.187 and Marina who is actually at Red Hat 0:15:28.187,0:15:30.290 and she does this and she’s amazing, 0:15:30.290,0:15:32.393 she’s the one who spearheads this effort, 0:15:32.393,0:15:33.118 it’s incredible. 0:15:33.118,0:15:33.930 You’re laughing? 0:15:33.930,0:15:36.086 No, I’ve actually interviewed Marina, 0:15:36.086,0:15:37.629 if people want to look back 0:15:37.629,0:15:39.841 you can find an interview with her 0:15:39.841,0:15:41.339 on exactly this topic. 0:15:41.339,0:15:43.898 Oh OK, so I’ll skip to the Ada Initiative. 0:15:43.898,0:15:44.868 Yeah. 0:15:44.868,0:15:46.617 which is — so I’ve just become an advisor 0:15:46.617,0:15:48.588 to that because I went to a conference 0:15:48.588,0:15:51.985 in Melbourne when I was there for Linux Conf Australia 0:15:51.985,0:15:54.824 They had this — it’s called AdaCamp 0:15:54.824,0:15:56.356 and I was astounded by 0:15:56.356,0:15:59.281 how many articulate amazing interesting women 0:15:59.281,0:16:00.204 there were who had so much more 0:16:00.204,0:16:02.757 information about women in technology 0:16:02.757,0:16:04.009 than I ever had. 0:16:04.009,0:16:05.951 I’ve been interviewed as a woman in Free Software 0:16:05.951,0:16:08.450 in the past and [laughs] — 0:16:08.450,0:16:10.669 following the old axiom that 0:16:10.669,0:16:11.616 in order to be an expert 0:16:11.616,0:16:12.637 about women in Free Software 0:16:12.637,0:16:14.936 you just had to be one. 0:16:14.936,0:16:15.577 Yeah. 0:16:15.577,0:16:16.125 [laughs] 0:16:16.125,0:16:19.190 So they — but these women had statistics 0:16:19.190,0:16:20.648 and they had real knowledge 0:16:20.648,0:16:24.050 and they had amazing recommendations of things that 0:16:24.050,0:16:27.476 Free Software projects and software companies 0:16:27.476,0:16:30.534 can do to make sure that 0:16:30.534,0:16:33.595 they’re actually encouraging women to participate. 0:16:33.595,0:16:35.906 And so that’s why I decided to affiliate with them, 0:16:35.906,0:16:36.608 and to support them. 0:16:36.608,0:16:37.571 Their work is incredible. 0:16:37.571,0:16:39.074 They’ve helped create 0:16:39.074,0:16:40.893 codes of conduct for conferences, 0:16:40.893,0:16:42.779 they’ve helped deal with problems as they arise, 0:16:42.779,0:16:44.369 they’ve helped draw attention to the issue 0:16:44.369,0:16:46.152 in the field, so it’s great, 0:16:46.152,0:16:47.258 the Ada Initiative. 0:16:47.258,0:16:48.190 That’s really good, 0:16:48.190,0:16:49.597 so that’s the search term if 0:16:49.597,0:16:52.414 people want to find out more about it. 0:16:52.414,0:16:54.878 Because we could do with 0:16:54.878,0:16:56.482 more women in engineering, 0:16:56.482,0:16:58.986 and in the Free Software communities. 0:16:58.986,0:17:01.291 So the other interesting thing that 0:17:01.291,0:17:04.687 you deal with is you have a very interesting 0:17:04.687,0:17:06.632 perspective on Free Software 0:17:06.632,0:17:08.929 as it relates to medical devices, 0:17:08.929,0:17:10.870 why that's really important. 0:17:10.870,0:17:12.697 I don't want you to go into any specific details 0:17:12.697,0:17:15.245 but maybe you could explain to our viewers 0:17:15.245,0:17:18.439 a little bit about how important that is. 0:17:18.439,0:17:20.693 Yeah, I don't know how to explain it 0:17:20.693,0:17:21.788 without at least getting into 0:17:21.788,0:17:24.402 the specific story of me 0:17:24.402,0:17:25.950 but I'll make it really short 0:17:25.950,0:17:28.790 and it's that I have a heart condition 0:17:28.790,0:17:32.789 I have a very big heart 0:17:32.789,0:17:34.713 and I'm fine, I have no symptoms 0:17:34.713,0:17:36.789 but I am at a very high risk of suddenly dying. 0:17:36.789,0:17:37.886 And I was already a lawyer 0:17:37.886,0:17:39.686 at the Software Freedom Law Center 0:17:39.686,0:17:41.217 when I was told that I needed 0:17:41.217,0:17:42.382 a pacemaker/defibrillator 0:17:42.382,0:17:45.756 so — and I'd been a programmer back in college 0:17:45.756,0:17:47.872 — so my first question was 0:17:47.872,0:17:49.781 "Well, what is the software on the device?" 0:17:49.781,0:17:52.194 And the doctor not only had no answer for me 0:17:52.194,0:17:54.150 he'd never thought about that question before. 0:17:54.150,0:17:56.380 The medical device rep came in 0:17:56.380,0:17:57.688 who happened to be there that day 0:17:57.688,0:17:59.385 had also never thought about that question 0:17:59.385,0:18:00.539 and had no answer. 0:18:00.539,0:18:06.447 And so I began this big discovery that 0:18:06.447,0:18:08.441 to make a long story short 0:18:08.441,0:18:09.721 brought me to the realisation that 0:18:09.721,0:18:11.969 actually the Food and Drug Administration 0:18:11.969,0:18:13.197 is not reviewing 0:18:13.197,0:18:15.143 the source code on these devices 0:18:15.143,0:18:19.103 because they're not asking for the 0:18:19.103,0:18:20.074 source code to review it, 0:18:20.074,0:18:22.137 they actually don't even keep a copy. 0:18:22.137,0:18:23.161 So there are all these issues 0:18:23.161,0:18:25.448 with the fact that we're all relying on these 0:18:25.448,0:18:27.175 medical device companies 0:18:27.175,0:18:30.183 for creating and testing their own software. 0:18:30.183,0:18:32.191 Which, you know, these companies 0:18:32.191,0:18:33.108 have an interest in making sure that 0:18:33.108,0:18:34.726 nobody dies 0:18:34.726,0:18:39.135 but when you have something that's 0:18:39.135,0:18:40.121 being implanted into your body 0:18:40.121,0:18:41.998 and being literally screwed into your heart 0:18:41.998,0:18:43.463 Yousort of start to realise that 0:18:43.463,0:18:45.279 "Well, why can't I look at the software 0:18:45.279,0:18:46.723 that's on this device?" 0:18:46.723,0:18:48.382 And not only that, I actually 0:18:48.382,0:18:50.183 even offered to sign an NDA, I wasn't even 0:18:50.183,0:18:52.043 asking "please publish it to the world" 0:18:52.043,0:18:53.140 I was just saying 0:18:53.140,0:18:54.679 "I would feel a lot better personally 0:18:54.679,0:18:56.508 if I could take a look at the code." 0:18:56.508,0:18:58.418 And that was a non-starter with these 0:18:58.418,0:18:59.700 medical device companies. 0:18:59.700,0:19:01.124 So what I've started doing is 0:19:01.124,0:19:02.166 in addition to the research about the 0:19:02.166,0:19:03.810 legal ramifications and what the framework are 0:19:03.810,0:19:05.906 are to just sort of start talking about it 0:19:05.906,0:19:07.648 and sort of let people know 0:19:07.648,0:19:09.371 that this is really a problem that 0:19:09.371,0:19:12.194 the medical devices that we have right now fail. 0:19:12.194,0:19:13.736 They're great, they're amazing devices 0:19:13.736,0:19:15.001 but they have software in them 0:19:15.001,0:19:16.245 and software has bugs. 0:19:16.245,0:19:18.734 So over time they will fail and 0:19:18.734,0:19:20.940 you know, just because software is available 0:19:20.940,0:19:23.871 for review doesn't mean it will be 100% safe. 0:19:23.871,0:19:25.328 It will also have bugs. 0:19:25.328,0:19:26.828 But the chances are that if there are problems 0:19:26.828,0:19:28.079 they'll be caught faster 0:19:28.079,0:19:29.719 that anyone can fix them; 0:19:29.719,0:19:31.417 all of the reasons why Free Software 0:19:31.417,0:19:34.191 is so great to work on and so great to have 0:19:34.191,0:19:35.699 in your company's products 0:19:35.699,0:19:37.049 are exactly the same reasons why 0:19:37.049,0:19:39.578 it makes so much more sense to have it in medical devices. 0:19:39.578,0:19:40.443 But on top of that 0:19:40.443,0:19:42.485 it's just an issue of public safety. 0:19:42.485,0:19:44.630 So, you know, you can come at it 0:19:44.630,0:19:47.193 from either just the sensible 0:19:47.193,0:19:50.153 "these devices fail and instead of —" 0:19:50.153,0:19:51.363 There are all these think tanks that 0:19:51.363,0:19:53.845 are going around researching these devices 0:19:53.845,0:19:54.912 and they are finding ways to 0:19:54.912,0:19:56.815 show that they're maliciously hackable. 0:19:56.815,0:19:59.895 And those same think tanks would be reviewing 0:19:59.895,0:20:02.788 the source code line-by-line and finding problems 0:20:02.788,0:20:04.239 so that they could be fixed. 0:20:04.239,0:20:05.835 You know there's a tremendous amount 0:20:05.835,0:20:07.070 of interest in this. 0:20:07.070,0:20:08.435 And once you start thinking about your 0:20:08.435,0:20:10.393 medical devices you think about all the software 0:20:10.393,0:20:13.620 you rely on, it's not just my medical device, 0:20:13.620,0:20:15.675 what about our voting machines? 0:20:15.675,0:20:16.845 What about our cars? 0:20:16.845,0:20:18.033 Our cars have been — there was a 0:20:18.033,0:20:21.439 security exploit on cars where 0:20:21.439,0:20:24.598 they could be remotely hacked into 0:20:24.598,0:20:27.674 through the most amazing of ways 0:20:27.674,0:20:32.434 and controlled: steered and accelerated 0:20:32.434,0:20:34.186 and — just amazing stuff. 0:20:34.186,0:20:38.268 So, you know, it's everything that we rely on, 0:20:38.268,0:20:41.017 and all that software interacts together. 0:20:41.017,0:20:43.551 So we need our software that we rely on 0:20:43.551,0:20:46.620 to be, you know, to be Free and Open. 0:20:46.620,0:20:49.028 We're building just so much infrastructure 0:20:49.028,0:20:52.415 both, you know, in our hearts, in our bodies, 0:20:52.415,0:20:56.395 but also in our society, our financial markets. 0:20:56.395,0:20:59.504 The only way we'll create a good society 0:20:59.504,0:21:00.892 going forward is by making sure that 0:21:00.892,0:21:02.829 it's freedom and — 0:21:02.829,0:21:04.465 As I like to often say 0:21:04.465,0:21:07.675 eventually your doorknob is going to have a processor 0:21:07.675,0:21:08.416 [laugh] 0:21:08.416,0:21:11.808 running software and who controls the code in that? 0:21:11.808,0:21:13.281 It will end up being extremely important 0:21:13.281,0:21:14.965 going forward. 0:21:14.965,0:21:17.480 So there's one final question I'd like to ask 0:21:17.480,0:21:19.168 — thank you so much for your time — 0:21:19.168,0:21:23.435 but what I always like to ask people 0:21:23.435,0:21:27.047 is for viewers who might not be currently in the 0:21:27.047,0:21:29.022 Free Software community, 0:21:29.022,0:21:30.590 who might be thinking about it: 0:21:30.590,0:21:32.968 how did you get to where you are? 0:21:32.968,0:21:36.689 So, you know, imagine that you're a young woman 0:21:36.689,0:21:40.051 in your late teens or early twenties 0:21:40.051,0:21:42.328 what advice would you give to someone like that 0:21:42.328,0:21:45.116 to be able to end up in the august position 0:21:45.116,0:21:47.883 of Director of the GNOME Foundation? 0:21:47.883,0:21:51.008 People actually do ask me — especially law students — 0:21:51.008,0:21:53.764 how they can emulate my career path 0:21:53.764,0:21:55.699 and I tell them that I wish I was as organised 0:21:55.699,0:21:57.703 as they are to even ask about it. 0:21:57.703,0:21:59.392 I kind of, to be totally honest, 0:21:59.392,0:22:01.742 just stumbled into these jobs. 0:22:01.742,0:22:06.262 I would say that interest in technology for women 0:22:06.262,0:22:07.779 happens very early. 0:22:07.779,0:22:12.653 So I would say to all of you 0:22:12.653,0:22:15.054 if you know of a little girl 0:22:15.054,0:22:18.122 try and introduce them to some kind of technology 0:22:18.122,0:22:20.406 because once you get past a certain age 0:22:20.406,0:22:23.576 for many girls it's too late. 0:22:23.576,0:22:25.437 At the AdaCamp we had a session 0:22:25.437,0:22:28.984 where we talked about how we could get 0:22:28.984,0:22:30.845 more high school girls interested in technology 0:22:30.845,0:22:32.747 and I was like "hang on, let's stop for a second 0:22:32.747,0:22:34.307 and let's go around the room really fast 0:22:34.307,0:22:36.515 and say what we think our earliest positive 0:22:36.515,0:22:38.314 technology experience was that we think was 0:22:38.314,0:22:39.553 the most formative." 0:22:39.553,0:22:41.304 So that we could sort of think of how to 0:22:41.304,0:22:43.294 create that for other girls. 0:22:43.294,0:22:44.925 And almost everybody as I went around 0:22:44.925,0:22:47.428 had a parent, notably a father, 0:22:47.428,0:22:49.099 who had been interested in computers 0:22:49.099,0:22:51.605 and who had encouraged us at a very early age. 0:22:51.605,0:22:53.687 So I would say that that — I had a father 0:22:53.687,0:22:55.625 who was an engineer 0:22:55.625,0:22:57.419 and he encouraged me from the get-go 0:22:57.419,0:23:00.389 and I'm very old in Free Software terms 0:23:00.389,0:23:03.755 so he encouraged me on Prodigy and Compuserve 0:23:03.755,0:23:06.534 and I had a computer from the earliest days 0:23:06.534,0:23:07.753 where I was running BASIC 0:23:07.753,0:23:12.803 and he looked at my 10 PRINT "KAREN RULES" 0:23:12.803,0:23:15.387 and said you know 0:23:15.387,0:23:16.652 — and GOTO 10 — 0:23:16.652,0:23:19.123 and he said "you know what else you can do with this? 0:23:19.123,0:23:20.198 You can do this, you can do that." 0:23:20.198,0:23:21.528 So I would say that was the earliest thing 0:23:21.528,0:23:23.251 and then I went to engineering school 0:23:23.251,0:23:25.214 because I was on this technology path 0:23:25.214,0:23:27.396 and I worked in a computer lab 0:23:27.396,0:23:28.930 where there were no women 0:23:28.930,0:23:31.155 and I went into the director and I said 0:23:31.155,0:23:34.450 "You have no women in this lab and all these women 0:23:34.450,0:23:35.990 are walking in and it's so hostile 0:23:35.990,0:23:38.144 and they just leave! It's horrible. Can you do something?" 0:23:38.144,0:23:39.486 And he said "You're hired!" 0:23:39.486,0:23:43.128 And that's how I wound up learning about computers 0:23:43.128,0:23:45.294 and spending all my time in the computer lab. 0:23:45.294,0:23:48.092 And so it's quite lucky in part. 0:23:48.092,0:23:49.216 And then I went to law school 0:23:49.216,0:23:52.098 and I didn't even know who Eben Moglen was 0:23:52.098,0:23:54.824 and I happened to be in his class 0:23:54.824,0:23:56.811 on perspectives on modern legal thought. 0:23:56.811,0:24:00.751 And I was so moved by — he's an incredible speaker 0:24:00.751,0:24:03.168 and I was just so moved by his teaching — 0:24:03.168,0:24:04.873 that he was my favourite professor in law school. 0:24:04.873,0:24:07.954 And then I went off and did securities law! 0:24:07.954,0:24:10.342 And I decided — I got fed up and I quit 0:24:10.342,0:24:11.084 and he heard I'd quit 0:24:11.084,0:24:13.106 and he'd started the Software Freedom Law Center 0:24:13.106,0:24:16.608 and asked me if I wanted to learn about non-profit law 0:24:16.608,0:24:18.115 and I was like "yes!" 0:24:18.115,0:24:19.657 But I hadn't actually thought about Free Software 0:24:19.657,0:24:21.223 that much since the 90s. 0:24:21.223,0:24:22.377 Even though I thought it was cool. 0:24:22.377,0:24:24.648 And then all of a sudden I had the opportunity 0:24:24.648,0:24:26.428 to be in the best spot in the world. 0:24:26.428,0:24:29.166 And over time I became really passionate about Free Software. 0:24:29.166,0:24:31.315 And then I had the medical issue happen to me. 0:24:31.315,0:24:33.120 And all of a sudden my personal and professional 0:24:33.120,0:24:34.310 were all combined. 0:24:34.310,0:24:36.361 And I've just been very very lucky. 0:24:36.361,0:24:38.203 So I would say as an advice to someone 0:24:38.203,0:24:39.310 who's starting out: 0:24:39.310,0:24:43.420 I would say "First, be open to new experiences 0:24:43.420,0:24:46.548 don't think that the next choice you're going to make 0:24:46.548,0:24:48.622 is forever. 0:24:48.622,0:24:50.799 And try to do good work in the world. 0:24:50.799,0:24:52.389 It has good ramifications 0:24:52.389,0:24:55.472 and it helps you out in the end too." 0:24:55.472,0:24:57.026 Thank you so much Karen. 0:24:57.026,0:24:59.405 That was really kind of you to spend the time. 0:24:59.405,0:25:00.431 I appreciate it. 0:25:00.431,0:25:01.534 Thanks for interviewing me. 0:25:01.534,0:25:03.000 Thanks.