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My name is A.J. Withers

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and i am a queer, disabled community organizer

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in Toronto around anti-poverty and disability, uh, issues.

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And i have a book coming out in January

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called "Disability Politics And Theory"

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from Fernwood Press.

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Hi my name is Karine,

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and i'm a member of Common Cause

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and i'm also a health professional in a community health centre.

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Um, i was also, i also had before a disability, a temporary disability,

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and i also have a sister that has a permanent disability,

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that is living currently with a disability.

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So this is why i wanted to be part of this, uh, interview.

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My name's Bryan, i'm with Common Cause, Toronto.

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My name is Ann, i'm a member of Common Cause,

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i also work with people with developmental disabilities,

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and [?]

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Disability is a social construct,

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and depending on the culture, the time, or the context one is in,

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will determine whether or not disability is marked on that person.

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So in some places and times and cultures,

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something that's considered disability

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isn't considered disability in other times, places, or cultures.

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And fundamentally, disabled people are constructed

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as people who are considered abnormal or unwanted or unfit

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within a given economy or social system.

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The medical model of disability

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is the mainstream way that people understand disability as a pathology or a sickness,

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and, um, it... seeks out, um pathologies or abnormalities,

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and works to find them and fix them, or cure them,

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and failing that, accommodate them.

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The social model of disability

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is a model of understanding disability

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which presents a separation between impairment,

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so the physical or mental characteristics

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that a person has that may be different from what other people typically have,

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and disability or disablement, so the social process that oppresses people with disabilities,

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through different institutions in our society,

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such as work, school, the state.

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So the social model of disability

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what i find important to remember,

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locates the problem of disability, the challenges,

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in the society,

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rather than in the individual,

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and looks to address those through social action

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rather than through changing individuals with disabiities.

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Radical disability politics

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is a shift from the mainstream way of thinking about disability.

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The mainstream way is a medical model.

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The disabilities studies canon, um,

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is a way that incorporates an understanding of oppression

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while still adopting some of the medical model.

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And a radical disability analysis

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is a complete rejection of the medical model

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as something that has been implemented

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in order to maintain power and control

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for people with privilege in society.

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And fundamentally questioning that

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and recognizing disability as an entirely social construct.

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The idea of what's "normal",

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that disability is constructed as being abnormal,

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was brought into the english language around the 1850's, around the time of eugenics.

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And that idea that, um, many times we think of as being always there,

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was findamentally rooted in, um,

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the creation of an Industrial Revolution, um

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changing capitalism to the capitalism that we know now.

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and constructing workers as, um, normal bodies that could function within factories.

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And so, all of the people that couldn't function within factories became abnormal or disabled.

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And up til the Industrial Revolution,

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things like intellectual disabilities and oftentimes physical disabilities

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weren't thought of as disabilities at all.

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They were just thought of as human variance.

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The description of disability and the marginalization of disabled people

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is really, um, fundamental to the success of capitalism,

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both in marginalising people that aren't participating in the capitalist system

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the way that the system requires people to participate,

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but also in the way that, um, disabled people, um non-disabled people are given a threat.

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So, disabled people are often times forced to live in poverty,

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marginalized, experience any number of different kinds of segregation,

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and that's a threat to people that aren't seen as disabled to be productive,

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and to work in the capitalist system, and if they don't there are these consequences,

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and disabled lives are the manifestation of that kind of consequence.

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For me, for me, the kind of, the ways that, that work, or or labour, um,

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interacts with disability or ability,

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in thinking about it more, i kind of appreciate...

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i'm starting to appreciate more and more how important, um, it actually is, for me.

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And i also see the importance of of of people that i work with

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and people that i have worked with all throughout my life, like,

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conceiving of themselves as able-bodied,

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while also terrified of or recognizing the lie of that.

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i think it's a rarity for me to have actually like shared a workplace with anybody

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that i would, in, kind of like full consideration consider an able-bodied person

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But it's centrally important that they consider themselves able-bodied,

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uh, and we always have, um no matter how absurd that actually is.

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It's a really substantial disciplining mechanism

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that's almost bred in the bone of almost every single working class person i know.

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And that's chasing after being

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the strongest, most productive worker

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not just for the sake of your boss

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but almost for your sake as well.

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Um, so, i think it's fundamentally important that we understand

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the associations that capital has,

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or the importance that capital puts on our bodies,

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and it's important that we understand

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the ways in which we've been hoodwinked into, into agreeing with that.

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For me, what i do for a job?

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I work with people who have a label of developmental or intellectual disabilities.

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Um, i've seen how, first of all, many of the situations they're put in in terms of work

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can be extremely exploitative,

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like working for much less than minimum wage, in environments that like,

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what used to be called sheltered workshops,

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where they do sort of fairly like, menial, repetitive tasks for an extremely low wage.

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Sort of the pressure in a way that's put on people to work in order to be sort of...

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that that's what makes your life meaningful

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as like a functioning adult, is that you should be working.

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The ways in which disablement or being disabled interacts with that

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i think is kind of, isn't quite as, isn't quite as descriptive as what it means to be able bodied.

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As opposed to disabled.

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Um, and,like, every every minute of the working day and even after work...

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like, myself and almost every single person i've ever worked with

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is in this battle to assert that they're actually physically capable of doing things

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that their only, the only reason that they're doing them,

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and the kind of, the degree to which they're pushing themselves

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is because it's their job.

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We conceive of ourselves as completely competent, independent, able-bodied people

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and really nothing could be further from the truth.

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The Canadian state is intertwined with capitalism,

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um, but also, um, i think that one of the things that disabilty politics can bring

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is like an understanding of people as individuals,

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and negotiating different people's needs,

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and that that, um, can help work to undermine the state and the state's power,

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and really looking at what people, um, need, and how we can provide community support

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and build community strength is a really important contribution

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that radical disability politics can make to anarchism and to the ways that we understand the state.

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So i think the state plays, like, many roles.

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And... it has a fair bit of influence in like the lives of many disabled people.

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Um, the state often makes decisions about who is disabled or not disabled,

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who's eligible for different incomes or programs.

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The state also, in Canada, administers medical and social services

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that can, um, impact on the lives of disabled people.

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Like for example in the past, large institutions...

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um, i think when you're talking about the state and disability

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something that you have to talk about eugenics.

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Um, so you can look at the idea of, like, the body politic, right?

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and how the state is in some ways invested

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in having, like, a healthy or fit population.

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Um, and, in the past we've seen, uh,

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the state impose eugenic policies on PWD

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for example, like, forced sterilization of PWD

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in Alberta and BC.

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For me, ive done a lot of research into anarcho-primitivism,

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ive also done a lot of research into, uh, historically,

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the eugenic movement and the role that anarchists played there.

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And some anarchists were very against eugenics,

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like Kropotkin.

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But other anarchists were eugenicists,

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and actively called for the sterilization of disabled people, or the "unfit".

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Um, and i think that that's something that's important

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for disabled people to recognize

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has been the case in all movements,

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and there have been elements of that, um, throughout history.

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And that doesnt necessarily reflect all anarchism.

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And i think that people can make that distinction,

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but i think that its really important

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that people are accountable to,

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that anarchists are accountable to the eugenic past,

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and the eugenic present,

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through anarcho-primitivism

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and actively challenge it

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and actively work against it,

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in order to how the solidarity that disabled people i think need to see

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in order for there to be mroe trust in building a more collective movement.

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It's just one component,

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their ableism is just one component

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of like a holistically misanthropic social outlook.

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Almost more misanthropic,

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almost more anti-person,

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or anti...

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not just anti worker,

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but like, anti-person,

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almost as misanthropic as capitalism

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or potentially even more so.

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Theres a number of different ways

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that people view primitivism

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but fundamentally, uh, in order to have this utopic view for certain people

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oftentimes very privileged people,

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um, disabled people have to die.

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And that is very sad,

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and its not ok,

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and i think its important for all anarchists

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because primitivism is so linked to anarchism

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and claims to be a part of anarchism,

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that anarchists challenge that,

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and confront that,

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and work to express that that is not their view.

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And to ensure that disabled people are included and valued.

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There's lots of different kinds of anarchism,

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and um, for me,

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any kind of good politically sound form of anarchism

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has a strong anti-oppression analysis.

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And disability is a really key component of that.

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Because of the 1st principle, one of the 1st principle of anarchism

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is everyone gives what they can

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and they take what they need.

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So thats exactly what PWD need, so they can participate,uh, fully

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within their own capability,

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uh, in the society.

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And also take what they need, the needs, the support, they need

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they can take it from the society.

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So as someone that believes in radical disability politics and anarchism

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i think that they both, like for me theyre inseparable.

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My understanding of mutual aid

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isn't so much that it's an aspiration that anarchists have,

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but that it's actually a recognition that it's one of the primary elements of our world.

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and it goes unrecognized, um, that there is an interdependence.

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i think that mutual aid and ... if we focus more on the fact that

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everything that we do is collective, um,

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it offers a lot more possibilities

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for a society in which people who may have differing abilities, different needs

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can be respected as equal members of that society

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and the contributions they can make, and they do make are respected,

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and that it's seen that their, all of our successes or failures

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and the various things that we try are based on everyones work,

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and not just you as an individual.

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which i think is ultimately positive for all people,

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but especially those people who are are in society considered disabled.

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And often times in disability communities

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that manifests in "care collectives",

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and people coming together to help folks

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you know, go pee or make dinner or shop or whatever it is,

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but the acknowledgement that that's a reciprocal relationship,

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that the disabled person gets something from it,

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but the non-disabled person, or the person with different needs

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gets things from it as well,

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and that both of those roles are really meaningful and important.

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Um, but, mutual aid and the spirit of collectivity

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and acknowledging that interdependence, i think are super important,

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and, um, beyond like yknow a do-it-yourself culture,

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like in creating a do-it-together culture.

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Well, disabled people have been engaged in direct action for decades upon decades.

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And have participated in a lot of different really creative actions

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that have been acceptable for lots of different people,

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and I think that we can bring that creativity to all different kinds of organizing

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around direct action.

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and even just like case actions,

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where, um, disabled people have oftentimes fought Disability or Welfare to get what they need.

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Um, but also disabled people oftentimes

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instead of having our bodies treated as burdens or hazzards,

249
00:17:11,932 --> 00:17:17,004
use our bodies in ways that are really powerful in direct action.

250
00:17:17,004 --> 00:17:22,924
And i think that a lot of times people fall into boxes of what direct action means

251
00:17:22,924 --> 00:17:23,911
and what it looks like,

252
00:17:23,911 --> 00:17:25,943
and, and, broadening that box

253
00:17:25,943 --> 00:17:30,151
and making sure that it's inclusive and accessible to people is really important.

254
00:17:30,151 --> 00:17:34,884
And in doing that, oftentimes actions can be stronger and more powerful.

255
00:17:43,172 --> 00:17:46,005
We often exclude people with disabilities in our movements,

256
00:17:46,005 --> 00:17:47,367
or during our events,

257
00:17:47,367 --> 00:17:49,674
I think we don't, we often don't think about their issues,

258
00:17:49,674 --> 00:17:52,873
and, but, it's part of everybody's issues,

259
00:17:52,873 --> 00:17:54,742
because everybody at one point will be disabled,

260
00:17:54,742 --> 00:17:57,078
either temporarily or permanently.

261
00:17:57,078 --> 00:17:59,513
So it's something that affects everybody,

262
00:17:59,513 --> 00:18:04,085
every single person will be affected with disability issue.

263
00:18:04,085 --> 00:18:06,954
In terms of the way that people organize,

264
00:18:06,954 --> 00:18:16,697
um, often times radicals will view people's worth in a movement with how much they produce,

265
00:18:16,697 --> 00:18:18,298
and how productive they are.

266
00:18:18,298 --> 00:18:23,571
And that is just like a, an adoption of a capitalist value

267
00:18:23,571 --> 00:18:26,040
that's really unfortunate and problematic,

268
00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:33,814
and shifting that to value people for any number of ways that they participate in the community,

269
00:18:33,814 --> 00:18:36,851
beyond what's viewed as production,

270
00:18:36,851 --> 00:18:39,553
is really important

271
00:18:39,553 --> 00:18:43,357
and is something that I think a lot of anarchists really struggle with.

272
00:18:43,357 --> 00:18:49,463
So, collective responsibility is, um, sort of a concept that is present in anarchism

273
00:18:49,463 --> 00:18:52,971
that describes how,

274
00:18:52,971 --> 00:18:59,340
it sort of puts into practice I think our focus on the social over the individual.

275
00:18:59,340 --> 00:19:02,724
So not only am I responsible for the things that I do individually,

276
00:19:02,724 --> 00:19:04,712
but also the things that happen around me.

277
00:19:04,712 --> 00:19:07,281
Um, just to give a really quick practical example,

278
00:19:07,281 --> 00:19:09,643
if I'm in a political organization,

279
00:19:09,643 --> 00:19:12,119
and I didn't promise to make the poster,

280
00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:13,687
but someone else did,

281
00:19:13,687 --> 00:19:17,057
but I never took the time to ask them, you know, if they needed help,

282
00:19:17,057 --> 00:19:21,795
if the poster doesn't get made, it is also my responsibility as well as theirs.

283
00:19:21,795 --> 00:19:24,086
Right? Even though... so it's focusing on the social,

284
00:19:24,086 --> 00:19:27,201
sort of like taking precedence over the individual.

285
00:19:27,201 --> 00:19:31,470
Um, how I think that relates to disability that's important,

286
00:19:31,470 --> 00:19:35,476
is that it can also relate to issues around accessibility.

287
00:19:35,476 --> 00:19:41,547
Um, so that we would all have a collective responsibility

288
00:19:41,547 --> 00:19:46,853
to make the spaces that we work in politically,

289
00:19:46,853 --> 00:19:48,855
accessible to as many people as possible.

290
00:19:48,855 --> 00:19:52,321
I think what we should be trying for,

291
00:19:52,321 --> 00:19:58,065
is to create spaces where we are responsible for what we do,

292
00:19:58,065 --> 00:20:00,588
but where there's also support available,

293
00:20:00,588 --> 00:20:04,738
and where there's also a culture where it's OK to ask for that support when needed.

294
00:20:04,738 --> 00:20:08,993
Um, I think that in terms of mutual aid and collective responsibility,

295
00:20:08,993 --> 00:20:11,408
that it shouldn't be so much about

296
00:20:11,408 --> 00:20:14,381
"oh, ok, well we have to provide these accommodations for this person,

297
00:20:14,381 --> 00:20:16,583
and we have to make sure that there's a ramp for this person",

298
00:20:16,583 --> 00:20:17,718
and that kind of thing.

299
00:20:17,718 --> 00:20:21,188
As much as like building,

300
00:20:21,188 --> 00:20:23,757
sort of like building a broader culture of solidarity

301
00:20:23,757 --> 00:20:27,761
where we all take responsibility for ensuring that the space allows for as much as possible

302
00:20:27,761 --> 00:20:30,487
the full participation of anyone who would want to participate.

303
00:20:30,764 --> 00:20:33,200
One of the ways that anarchist organizations can structure themselves

304
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,764
is implementing a culture within their organization

305
00:20:36,764 --> 00:20:41,501
that um automatically looks at accessibility,

306
00:20:41,501 --> 00:20:44,611
and interdependence,

307
00:20:44,611 --> 00:20:47,314
and ways of talking about meeting people's needs,

308
00:20:47,314 --> 00:20:49,916
and ensuring that people can get in the door,

309
00:20:49,916 --> 00:20:54,154
and can have meaningful participation in an organization.

310
00:20:54,154 --> 00:20:57,337
Um, but also ensuring that people have...

311
00:20:57,337 --> 00:21:02,029
that organizations put forward demands that are inclusive of disability issues,

312
00:21:02,029 --> 00:21:04,768
and are not tokenistic,

313
00:21:04,768 --> 00:21:10,526
but are, come from disabled people and from disabled communities

314
00:21:10,526 --> 00:21:13,702
around what we actually need and are fighting for.

315
00:21:20,614 --> 00:21:22,015
Like as a member of Common Cause

316
00:21:22,015 --> 00:21:24,690
with mostly just one other person in Common Cause,

317
00:21:24,690 --> 00:21:26,253
like, I started looking at some of this stuff,

318
00:21:26,253 --> 00:21:29,523
and tried to bring it to other people in the organization

319
00:21:29,523 --> 00:21:31,058
who maybe werent as familiar with it,

320
00:21:31,058 --> 00:21:33,607
or hadnt realyl had much interest in it.

321
00:21:33,607 --> 00:21:39,099
i think... sometimes theres a lack...

322
00:21:39,099 --> 00:21:41,835
i think people maybe had certain preconceptions

323
00:21:41,835 --> 00:21:44,938
about what radical disability politics were about.

324
00:21:44,938 --> 00:21:48,514
one of them maybe being that they're for certain people,

325
00:21:48,514 --> 00:21:50,604
that it's for disabled people.

326
00:21:50,604 --> 00:21:55,016
And i think what a lot of people maybe realize

327
00:21:55,016 --> 00:21:57,684
because we've seen some more interest in it,

328
00:21:57,684 --> 00:21:59,799
is that if affects...

329
00:21:59,799 --> 00:22:02,156
the things we're talking about in terms of, um,

330
00:22:02,156 --> 00:22:08,329
being either disabled by society, by work, by school,

331
00:22:08,329 --> 00:22:10,597
are things that a lot of people have experienced,

332
00:22:10,597 --> 00:22:12,198
but if youre not experiencing that,

333
00:22:12,198 --> 00:22:15,542
what youre experiencing is almost like a process of beig "abled"

334
00:22:15,542 --> 00:22:17,904
You're experiencing the other side of that,

335
00:22:17,904 --> 00:22:20,279
and that can also bring a lot of tensions, right?

336
00:22:20,279 --> 00:22:21,775
Like there can be...

337
00:22:21,775 --> 00:22:23,376
you can kind of feel like...

338
00:22:23,376 --> 00:22:25,612
even if youre having a really hard time

339
00:22:25,612 --> 00:22:27,214
like physically or emotionally,

340
00:22:27,214 --> 00:22:29,015
you dont want to let people know at your work

341
00:22:29,015 --> 00:22:31,318
because you're going to sort of fall into this other category or person.

342
00:22:31,318 --> 00:22:36,069
So I think what is important for anarchists to realize,

343
00:22:36,069 --> 00:22:40,341
& I think whats come out of some of the discussions I've had with other Common Cause members

344
00:22:40,341 --> 00:22:46,518
is that these questions of like um who is excluded and included in different spaces

345
00:22:46,518 --> 00:22:51,504
and sort of like how we support each other

346
00:22:51,504 --> 00:22:55,062
and how we place value on different activities

347
00:22:55,062 --> 00:22:57,013
I think is something that affects all people,

348
00:22:57,013 --> 00:23:02,349
and these politics are essential for understanding how we analyze the world

349
00:23:02,349 --> 00:23:04,151
and the kind of changes that we would want.

350
00:23:04,351 --> 00:23:07,788
Having an analysis that we don't want to be reformist,

351
00:23:07,788 --> 00:23:10,824
that like this movement shouldn't be a reformist movement,

352
00:23:10,824 --> 00:23:13,313
this should be a revolutionary movement,

353
00:23:13,313 --> 00:23:20,500
so although we wanna try to make people's life better on the day to day,

354
00:23:20,500 --> 00:23:22,335
like for example the Raise The Rates campaign

355
00:23:22,335 --> 00:23:26,940
on increasing the Ontario Works and ODSP

356
00:23:26,940 --> 00:23:36,016
so increasing the support programs, the money for programs up to 40%,

357
00:23:36,016 --> 00:23:37,918
will make their lives better,

358
00:23:37,918 --> 00:23:39,686
so we wanna fight for those things too,

359
00:23:39,686 --> 00:23:42,623
but we wanna have an analysis of like a revolutionary,

360
00:23:42,623 --> 00:23:45,961
like the end of capitalism and the state,

361
00:23:45,961 --> 00:23:48,493
not just trying to reform what the state is doing right now.

362
00:23:51,951 --> 00:23:57,570
So theres a lot of different things that, um, anarchist organizations can do,

363
00:23:57,570 --> 00:23:59,372
and there's really practical things,

364
00:23:59,372 --> 00:24:06,213
and there's kind of often times messier and harder, um, institutional things that can happen.

365
00:24:06,213 --> 00:24:12,486
So there's like an infinite number of issues that cross over

366
00:24:12,486 --> 00:24:16,490
and like I said before, I'm an anarchist and do radical disability work,

367
00:24:16,490 --> 00:24:19,326
and for me there's not a cross over,

368
00:24:19,326 --> 00:24:21,795
they're completely integrated,

369
00:24:21,795 --> 00:24:26,038
but, um, even for people that there's not this like basic issues

370
00:24:26,038 --> 00:24:32,706
around poverty and segregation, and like the forced encarceration

371
00:24:32,706 --> 00:24:36,710
of many many people who are labeled as disabled,

372
00:24:36,710 --> 00:24:40,710
um, the way that capitalism plays out in disabled people's lives.

373
00:24:41,048 --> 00:24:43,500
The different components that make up capitalism

374
00:24:43,500 --> 00:24:48,388
it's not just about how can anarchists engage in mass movements

375
00:24:48,388 --> 00:24:52,230
particularly structured around disability theory

376
00:24:52,230 --> 00:24:56,329
or mass struggles of disabled people,

377
00:24:56,329 --> 00:24:59,599
although that is stuff that has to be fought out,

378
00:24:59,599 --> 00:25:01,901
like in our cities, in our workplaces,

379
00:25:01,901 --> 00:25:07,407
issues of accessibility, um, uh, casualization of employment,

380
00:25:07,407 --> 00:25:10,017
or just like chronic unemployment.

381
00:25:10,017 --> 00:25:15,716
It's not just about how can anarchists participate in mass movements structured around disability,

382
00:25:15,716 --> 00:25:19,586
but how can a more thorough understanding of

383
00:25:19,586 --> 00:25:25,688
the importance of disability being incorporated within all the mass struggles that we have.

384
00:25:27,294 --> 00:25:28,963
Um, I think another thing that we can do

385
00:25:28,963 --> 00:25:32,700
is that, so then, when we start to get these ideas,

386
00:25:32,700 --> 00:25:36,403
even if it's just very like basic, new ideas,

387
00:25:36,403 --> 00:25:38,705
to start to bring that to some of our mass work,

388
00:25:38,705 --> 00:25:41,921
is trying to sort of link up different issues.

389
00:25:41,921 --> 00:25:44,429
Like a very basic example was, um,

390
00:25:44,429 --> 00:25:47,080
in like a mass organization that a number of us in Common Cause are part of,

391
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:49,883
there was a campaign that was posed for free transit.

392
00:25:49,883 --> 00:25:52,420
And one of our members made an amendment to that

393
00:25:52,420 --> 00:25:55,122
to make it a campaign to make it free and accessible transit.

394
00:25:55,122 --> 00:25:59,260
So just this like, and this isnt someone who had any particular knowledge of disability,

395
00:25:59,260 --> 00:26:02,396
who would consider themselves disabled or anything like that,

396
00:26:02,396 --> 00:26:05,933
um, but from that it's become a part of the campaign

397
00:26:05,933 --> 00:26:08,903
where different disability groups are involved in that,

398
00:26:08,903 --> 00:26:12,806
and it's something that, there have been actions around accessibility

399
00:26:12,806 --> 00:26:14,775
and this isn't something Common Cause has done,

400
00:26:14,775 --> 00:26:17,477
but its something that we we're able to sort of introduce that,

401
00:26:17,477 --> 00:26:24,452
I think, um, too, even if we're not focusing on struggles that are specific to disability

402
00:26:24,452 --> 00:26:26,520
to try to see how we can bring that in,

403
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:28,989
so if members are involved in anti-prison struggle,

404
00:26:28,989 --> 00:26:31,426
how can we bring an analysis around other institutions

405
00:26:31,426 --> 00:26:33,423
that exist that are disability focused?

406
00:26:33,423 --> 00:26:35,963
What's the relationship between psychiatric institutions and prisons?

407
00:26:35,963 --> 00:26:38,113
I think trying to sort of make those links,

408
00:26:38,113 --> 00:26:41,335
and to connect those struggles is a role that we can have

409
00:26:41,335 --> 00:26:44,492
because we tend to have members involved in a lot of different groups.

410
00:26:45,339 --> 00:26:47,541
Um, theres a bunch of different ways that people

411
00:26:47,541 --> 00:26:50,477
can work with different organizations,

412
00:26:50,477 --> 00:26:54,682
like neighbourhood communities, unions, and student groups.

413
00:26:54,682 --> 00:26:57,804
One of the ways is articulating disability politics

414
00:26:57,804 --> 00:27:00,488
in a way that makes sense to those organizations.

415
00:27:00,488 --> 00:27:04,291
So sometimes the way the conversation that you have with different groups

416
00:27:04,291 --> 00:27:05,659
is going to be slightly different.

417
00:27:05,659 --> 00:27:10,597
But around union organizing, talking about injured workers,

418
00:27:10,597 --> 00:27:13,454
and talking about capitalism and oppression,

419
00:27:13,454 --> 00:27:16,737
and, uh, the exclusion of disabled people

420
00:27:16,737 --> 00:27:21,742
and the impact that has on workers across the board.

421
00:27:21,742 --> 00:27:24,182
With respect to neighbourhood organizations,

422
00:27:24,182 --> 00:27:28,640
there's uh, every neighbourhood has disabled people in it,

423
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:32,887
and that are a really vibrant, important part of every community,

424
00:27:32,887 --> 00:27:36,024
and so, working to help people understand that

425
00:27:36,024 --> 00:27:38,346
and recognize the places (?) where that is,

426
00:27:38,346 --> 00:27:42,362
and, uh, working with people to help build bridges,

427
00:27:42,362 --> 00:27:44,842
and incorporate disabled people and disability issues into that community.

428
00:27:51,442 --> 00:28:01,015
I don't think its utopic to, uh, to propose an abolition of social stratification,

429
00:28:01,015 --> 00:28:08,022
and in that disability is predominantly ...

430
00:28:08,022 --> 00:28:14,361
there's a difference between the conditions under which a human body finds itself,

431
00:28:14,361 --> 00:28:16,194
or is put in,

432
00:28:16,194 --> 00:28:21,435
and whether or not they're conceived of as disabled or able bodied.

433
00:28:21,435 --> 00:28:26,373
Um, like that, like you were saying , that is a social construction.

434
00:28:26,373 --> 00:28:36,784
And it's not utopic to um work towards the abolition of that social construction.

435
00:28:36,784 --> 00:28:38,950
I think it's also important to keep in mind that like

436
00:28:38,950 --> 00:28:44,198
many, if, like thinking about the future,

437
00:28:44,198 --> 00:28:48,929
and about like how a lot of the current social processes of disablement

438
00:28:48,929 --> 00:28:52,975
would be unnecessary

439
00:28:52,975 --> 00:28:55,302
and in a lot of ways unhelpful, right?

440
00:28:55,302 --> 00:28:58,973
Like the need to create the separation between deserving and undeserving poor,

441
00:28:58,973 --> 00:29:01,442
and to legitimize things in that way,

442
00:29:01,442 --> 00:29:05,446
like without that, the need to sort of label people as disabled,

443
00:29:05,446 --> 00:29:08,015
how that is helpful kind of goes away.

444
00:29:08,015 --> 00:29:10,751
And I would never think that in the future, if we lived without capitalism

445
00:29:10,751 --> 00:29:14,521
that like, what I have that could be described as mental illness would go away,

446
00:29:14,521 --> 00:29:20,961
but I would like to live in a world where I wouldn't have to worry about like

447
00:29:20,961 --> 00:29:24,931
seeking, like if i needed help, seeking it because of an employer finding out

448
00:29:24,931 --> 00:29:28,435
because of a box you check on a form when you apply for jobs or soemthing like that.

449
00:29:28,435 --> 00:29:31,892
Like that aspect of it that just makes things harder,

450
00:29:31,892 --> 00:29:35,651
like I don't think it's utopic to talk about that going away.