0:00:08.308,0:00:09.451 My name is A.J. Withers 0:00:09.451,0:00:12.887 and i am a queer, disabled community organizer 0:00:12.887,0:00:17.451 in Toronto around anti-poverty and disability, uh, issues. 0:00:17.451,0:00:19.453 And i have a book coming out in January 0:00:19.453,0:00:21.246 called "Disability Politics And Theory" 0:00:21.246,0:00:23.150 from Fernwood Press. 0:00:23.150,0:00:24.258 Hi my name is Karine, 0:00:24.258,0:00:25.760 and i'm a member of Common Cause 0:00:25.760,0:00:28.860 and i'm also a health professional in a community health centre. 0:00:28.860,0:00:36.537 Um, i was also, i also had before a disability, a temporary disability, 0:00:36.537,0:00:40.240 and i also have a sister that has a permanent disability, 0:00:40.240,0:00:42.142 that is living currently with a disability. 0:00:42.142,0:00:45.512 So this is why i wanted to be part of this, uh, interview. 0:00:45.512,0:00:49.884 My name's Bryan, i'm with Common Cause, Toronto. 0:00:49.884,0:00:53.154 My name is Ann, i'm a member of Common Cause, 0:00:53.154,0:00:55.790 i also work with people with developmental disabilities, 0:00:55.790,0:00:57.342 and [?] 0:01:01.495,0:01:02.729 Disability is a social construct, 0:01:02.729,0:01:08.101 and depending on the culture, the time, or the context one is in, 0:01:08.101,0:01:13.006 will determine whether or not disability is marked on that person. 0:01:13.006,0:01:15.509 So in some places and times and cultures, 0:01:15.509,0:01:16.810 something that's considered disability 0:01:16.810,0:01:21.082 isn't considered disability in other times, places, or cultures. 0:01:21.082,0:01:24.637 And fundamentally, disabled people are constructed 0:01:24.637,0:01:28.956 as people who are considered abnormal or unwanted or unfit 0:01:28.956,0:01:31.053 within a given economy or social system. 0:01:36.229,0:01:37.872 The medical model of disability 0:01:37.872,0:01:43.870 is the mainstream way that people understand disability as a pathology or a sickness, 0:01:43.870,0:01:50.086 and, um, it... seeks out, um pathologies or abnormalities, 0:01:50.086,0:01:54.405 and works to find them and fix them, or cure them, 0:01:54.405,0:01:56.359 and failing that, accommodate them. 0:01:57.377,0:01:58.631 The social model of disability 0:01:58.631,0:02:00.488 is a model of understanding disability 0:02:00.488,0:02:03.023 which presents a separation between impairment, 0:02:03.023,0:02:05.092 so the physical or mental characteristics 0:02:05.092,0:02:08.495 that a person has that may be different from what other people typically have, 0:02:08.495,0:02:13.967 and disability or disablement, so the social process that oppresses people with disabilities, 0:02:13.967,0:02:16.803 through different institutions in our society, 0:02:16.803,0:02:19.807 such as work, school, the state. 0:02:19.807,0:02:21.175 So the social model of disability 0:02:21.175,0:02:22.676 what i find important to remember, 0:02:22.676,0:02:25.412 locates the problem of disability, the challenges, 0:02:25.412,0:02:27.214 in the society, 0:02:27.214,0:02:28.817 rather than in the individual, 0:02:28.817,0:02:31.464 and looks to address those through social action 0:02:31.464,0:02:33.472 rather than through changing individuals with disabiities. 0:02:35.422,0:02:36.851 Radical disability politics 0:02:36.851,0:02:41.928 is a shift from the mainstream way of thinking about disability. 0:02:41.928,0:02:46.278 The mainstream way is a medical model. 0:02:46.278,0:02:49.770 The disabilities studies canon, um, 0:02:49.770,0:02:53.841 is a way that incorporates an understanding of oppression 0:02:53.841,0:02:56.710 while still adopting some of the medical model. 0:02:56.710,0:02:59.280 And a radical disability analysis 0:02:59.280,0:03:02.161 is a complete rejection of the medical model 0:03:02.161,0:03:05.365 as something that has been implemented 0:03:05.365,0:03:08.021 in order to maintain power and control 0:03:08.021,0:03:10.357 for people with privilege in society. 0:03:10.357,0:03:12.859 And fundamentally questioning that 0:03:12.859,0:03:15.969 and recognizing disability as an entirely social construct. 0:03:22.736,0:03:25.102 The idea of what's "normal", 0:03:25.102,0:03:28.108 that disability is constructed as being abnormal, 0:03:28.108,0:03:35.416 was brought into the english language around the 1850's, around the time of eugenics. 0:03:35.416,0:03:43.623 And that idea that, um, many times we think of as being always there, 0:03:43.623,0:03:46.557 was findamentally rooted in, um, 0:03:46.557,0:03:49.896 the creation of an Industrial Revolution, um 0:03:49.896,0:03:55.302 changing capitalism to the capitalism that we know now. 0:03:55.302,0:04:04.078 and constructing workers as, um, normal bodies that could function within factories. 0:04:04.078,0:04:11.418 And so, all of the people that couldn't function within factories became abnormal or disabled. 0:04:11.418,0:04:14.755 And up til the Industrial Revolution, 0:04:14.755,0:04:18.725 things like intellectual disabilities and oftentimes physical disabilities 0:04:18.725,0:04:21.928 weren't thought of as disabilities at all. 0:04:21.928,0:04:24.442 They were just thought of as human variance. 0:04:25.532,0:04:30.037 The description of disability and the marginalization of disabled people 0:04:30.037,0:04:35.909 is really, um, fundamental to the success of capitalism, 0:04:35.909,0:04:41.248 both in marginalising people that aren't participating in the capitalist system 0:04:41.248,0:04:47.187 the way that the system requires people to participate, 0:04:47.187,0:04:57.731 but also in the way that, um, disabled people, um non-disabled people are given a threat. 0:04:57.731,0:05:02.002 So, disabled people are often times forced to live in poverty, 0:05:02.002,0:05:05.906 marginalized, experience any number of different kinds of segregation, 0:05:05.906,0:05:12.112 and that's a threat to people that aren't seen as disabled to be productive, 0:05:12.112,0:05:17.617 and to work in the capitalist system, and if they don't there are these consequences, 0:05:17.617,0:05:23.056 and disabled lives are the manifestation of that kind of consequence. 0:05:23.056,0:05:33.867 For me, for me, the kind of, the ways that, that work, or or labour, um, 0:05:33.867,0:05:37.104 interacts with disability or ability, 0:05:37.104,0:05:43.844 in thinking about it more, i kind of appreciate... 0:05:43.844,0:05:51.418 i'm starting to appreciate more and more how important, um, it actually is, for me. 0:05:51.418,0:05:58.726 And i also see the importance of of of people that i work with 0:05:58.726,0:06:01.495 and people that i have worked with all throughout my life, like, 0:06:01.495,0:06:03.973 conceiving of themselves as able-bodied, 0:06:03.973,0:06:19.079 while also terrified of or recognizing the lie of that. 0:06:19.079,0:06:23.984 i think it's a rarity for me to have actually like shared a workplace with anybody 0:06:23.984,0:06:31.158 that i would, in, kind of like full consideration consider an able-bodied person 0:06:31.158,0:06:36.096 But it's centrally important that they consider themselves able-bodied, 0:06:36.096,0:06:44.127 uh, and we always have, um no matter how absurd that actually is. 0:06:47.673,0:06:52.512 It's a really substantial disciplining mechanism 0:06:52.512,0:06:58.518 that's almost bred in the bone of almost every single working class person i know. 0:06:58.518,0:07:07.428 And that's chasing after being 0:07:07.428,0:07:11.231 the strongest, most productive worker 0:07:11.231,0:07:12.982 not just for the sake of your boss 0:07:12.982,0:07:16.187 but almost for your sake as well. 0:07:16.187,0:07:26.546 Um, so, i think it's fundamentally important that we understand 0:07:26.546,0:07:29.329 the associations that capital has, 0:07:29.329,0:07:32.519 or the importance that capital puts on our bodies, 0:07:32.519,0:07:37.178 and it's important that we understand 0:07:37.178,0:07:39.578 the ways in which we've been hoodwinked into, into agreeing with that. 0:07:43.063,0:07:46.333 For me, what i do for a job? 0:07:46.333,0:07:51.204 I work with people who have a label of developmental or intellectual disabilities. 0:07:51.204,0:07:58.345 Um, i've seen how, first of all, many of the situations they're put in in terms of work 0:07:58.345,0:08:00.547 can be extremely exploitative, 0:08:00.547,0:08:05.586 like working for much less than minimum wage, in environments that like, 0:08:05.586,0:08:07.054 what used to be called sheltered workshops, 0:08:07.054,0:08:12.392 where they do sort of fairly like, menial, repetitive tasks for an extremely low wage. 0:08:12.392,0:08:18.498 Sort of the pressure in a way that's put on people to work in order to be sort of... 0:08:18.498,0:08:21.768 that that's what makes your life meaningful 0:08:21.768,0:08:25.605 as like a functioning adult, is that you should be working. 0:08:25.605,0:08:30.877 The ways in which disablement or being disabled interacts with that 0:08:30.877,0:08:38.685 i think is kind of, isn't quite as, isn't quite as descriptive as what it means to be able bodied. 0:08:38.685,0:08:40.568 As opposed to disabled. 0:08:40.568,0:08:52.225 Um, and,like, every every minute of the working day and even after work... 0:08:52.225,0:08:56.170 like, myself and almost every single person i've ever worked with 0:08:56.170,0:09:01.742 is in this battle to assert that they're actually physically capable of doing things 0:09:01.742,0:09:09.182 that their only, the only reason that they're doing them, 0:09:09.182,0:09:13.820 and the kind of, the degree to which they're pushing themselves 0:09:13.820,0:09:16.174 is because it's their job. 0:09:17.424,0:09:27.368 We conceive of ourselves as completely competent, independent, able-bodied people 0:09:27.368,0:09:29.475 and really nothing could be further from the truth. 0:09:37.086,0:09:40.280 The Canadian state is intertwined with capitalism, 0:09:40.280,0:09:47.349 um, but also, um, i think that one of the things that disabilty politics can bring 0:09:47.349,0:09:51.392 is like an understanding of people as individuals, 0:09:51.392,0:09:55.162 and negotiating different people's needs, 0:09:55.162,0:10:01.669 and that that, um, can help work to undermine the state and the state's power, 0:10:01.669,0:10:09.876 and really looking at what people, um, need, and how we can provide community support 0:10:09.876,0:10:12.775 and build community strength is a really important contribution 0:10:12.775,0:10:15.836 that radical disability politics can make to anarchism and to the ways that we understand the state. 0:10:19.671,0:10:22.272 So i think the state plays, like, many roles. 0:10:22.272,0:10:27.695 And... it has a fair bit of influence in like the lives of many disabled people. 0:10:27.695,0:10:33.400 Um, the state often makes decisions about who is disabled or not disabled, 0:10:33.400,0:10:36.036 who's eligible for different incomes or programs. 0:10:36.036,0:10:41.575 The state also, in Canada, administers medical and social services 0:10:41.575,0:10:47.447 that can, um, impact on the lives of disabled people. 0:10:47.447,0:10:51.952 Like for example in the past, large institutions... 0:10:51.952,0:10:55.128 um, i think when you're talking about the state and disability 0:10:55.128,0:10:58.159 something that you have to talk about eugenics. 0:10:58.159,0:11:03.441 Um, so you can look at the idea of, like, the body politic, right? 0:11:03.441,0:11:06.867 and how the state is in some ways invested 0:11:06.867,0:11:11.004 in having, like, a healthy or fit population. 0:11:11.004,0:11:18.626 Um, and, in the past we've seen, uh, 0:11:18.626,0:11:22.883 the state impose eugenic policies on PWD 0:11:22.883,0:11:26.153 for example, like, forced sterilization of PWD 0:11:26.153,0:11:28.565 in Alberta and BC. 0:11:28.565,0:11:30.925 For me, ive done a lot of research into anarcho-primitivism, 0:11:30.925,0:11:34.230 ive also done a lot of research into, uh, historically, 0:11:34.230,0:11:37.731 the eugenic movement and the role that anarchists played there. 0:11:37.731,0:11:41.001 And some anarchists were very against eugenics, 0:11:41.001,0:11:42.402 like Kropotkin. 0:11:42.402,0:11:45.887 But other anarchists were eugenicists, 0:11:45.887,0:11:51.445 and actively called for the sterilization of disabled people, or the "unfit". 0:11:51.445,0:11:56.034 Um, and i think that that's something that's important 0:11:56.034,0:11:57.798 for disabled people to recognize 0:11:57.798,0:12:01.055 has been the case in all movements, 0:12:01.055,0:12:06.093 and there have been elements of that, um, throughout history. 0:12:06.093,0:12:09.830 And that doesnt necessarily reflect all anarchism. 0:12:09.830,0:12:13.542 And i think that people can make that distinction, 0:12:13.542,0:12:15.569 but i think that its really important 0:12:15.569,0:12:19.393 that people are accountable to, 0:12:19.393,0:12:22.309 that anarchists are accountable to the eugenic past, 0:12:22.309,0:12:24.044 and the eugenic present, 0:12:24.044,0:12:25.616 through anarcho-primitivism 0:12:25.616,0:12:27.381 and actively challenge it 0:12:27.381,0:12:29.285 and actively work against it, 0:12:29.285,0:12:33.464 in order to how the solidarity that disabled people i think need to see 0:12:33.464,0:12:40.941 in order for there to be mroe trust in building a more collective movement. 0:12:40.941,0:12:42.462 It's just one component, 0:12:42.462,0:12:44.197 their ableism is just one component 0:12:44.197,0:12:50.103 of like a holistically misanthropic social outlook. 0:12:50.103,0:12:51.605 Almost more misanthropic, 0:12:51.605,0:12:55.105 almost more anti-person, 0:12:55.105,0:12:57.102 or anti... 0:12:57.102,0:12:58.145 not just anti worker, 0:12:58.145,0:12:59.780 but like, anti-person, 0:12:59.780,0:13:04.625 almost as misanthropic as capitalism 0:13:04.625,0:13:06.182 or potentially even more so. 0:13:06.520,0:13:08.389 Theres a number of different ways 0:13:08.389,0:13:10.557 that people view primitivism 0:13:10.557,0:13:16.328 but fundamentally, uh, in order to have this utopic view for certain people 0:13:16.328,0:13:18.836 oftentimes very privileged people, 0:13:18.836,0:13:21.434 um, disabled people have to die. 0:13:21.434,0:13:23.759 And that is very sad, 0:13:23.759,0:13:25.338 and its not ok, 0:13:25.338,0:13:27.875 and i think its important for all anarchists 0:13:27.875,0:13:30.944 because primitivism is so linked to anarchism 0:13:30.944,0:13:33.929 and claims to be a part of anarchism, 0:13:33.929,0:13:35.983 that anarchists challenge that, 0:13:35.983,0:13:36.784 and confront that, 0:13:36.784,0:13:41.870 and work to express that that is not their view. 0:13:41.870,0:13:45.574 And to ensure that disabled people are included and valued. 0:13:53.957,0:13:56.536 There's lots of different kinds of anarchism, 0:13:56.536,0:13:59.173 and um, for me, 0:13:59.173,0:14:02.304 any kind of good politically sound form of anarchism 0:14:02.304,0:14:05.112 has a strong anti-oppression analysis. 0:14:05.112,0:14:08.218 And disability is a really key component of that. 0:14:08.387,0:14:11.318 Because of the 1st principle, one of the 1st principle of anarchism 0:14:11.318,0:14:13.153 is everyone gives what they can 0:14:13.153,0:14:15.355 and they take what they need. 0:14:15.355,0:14:20.787 So thats exactly what PWD need, so they can participate,uh, fully 0:14:20.787,0:14:23.341 within their own capability, 0:14:23.341,0:14:25.198 uh, in the society. 0:14:25.198,0:14:29.843 And also take what they need, the needs, the support, they need 0:14:29.843,0:14:32.537 they can take it from the society. 0:14:33.651,0:14:37.077 So as someone that believes in radical disability politics and anarchism 0:14:37.077,0:14:40.696 i think that they both, like for me theyre inseparable. 0:14:41.527,0:14:44.218 My understanding of mutual aid 0:14:44.218,0:14:50.056 isn't so much that it's an aspiration that anarchists have, 0:14:50.056,0:14:57.831 but that it's actually a recognition that it's one of the primary elements of our world. 0:14:57.831,0:15:03.303 and it goes unrecognized, um, that there is an interdependence. 0:15:03.303,0:15:08.063 i think that mutual aid and ... if we focus more on the fact that 0:15:08.063,0:15:11.221 everything that we do is collective, um, 0:15:11.221,0:15:13.747 it offers a lot more possibilities 0:15:13.747,0:15:19.119 for a society in which people who may have differing abilities, different needs 0:15:19.119,0:15:22.188 can be respected as equal members of that society 0:15:22.188,0:15:26.221 and the contributions they can make, and they do make are respected, 0:15:26.221,0:15:30.307 and that it's seen that their, all of our successes or failures 0:15:30.307,0:15:33.367 and the various things that we try are based on everyones work, 0:15:33.367,0:15:36.170 and not just you as an individual. 0:15:36.170,0:15:38.156 which i think is ultimately positive for all people, 0:15:38.156,0:15:41.907 but especially those people who are are in society considered disabled. 0:15:42.276,0:15:44.478 And often times in disability communities 0:15:44.478,0:15:47.026 that manifests in "care collectives", 0:15:47.026,0:15:49.816 and people coming together to help folks 0:15:49.816,0:15:54.120 you know, go pee or make dinner or shop or whatever it is, 0:15:54.120,0:15:57.939 but the acknowledgement that that's a reciprocal relationship, 0:15:57.939,0:16:02.062 that the disabled person gets something from it, 0:16:02.062,0:16:04.731 but the non-disabled person, or the person with different needs 0:16:04.731,0:16:06.767 gets things from it as well, 0:16:06.767,0:16:11.732 and that both of those roles are really meaningful and important. 0:16:11.732,0:16:16.343 Um, but, mutual aid and the spirit of collectivity 0:16:16.343,0:16:21.114 and acknowledging that interdependence, i think are super important, 0:16:21.114,0:16:25.952 and, um, beyond like yknow a do-it-yourself culture, 0:16:25.952,0:16:28.777 like in creating a do-it-together culture. 0:16:30.790,0:16:36.020 Well, disabled people have been engaged in direct action for decades upon decades. 0:16:36.020,0:16:42.035 And have participated in a lot of different really creative actions 0:16:42.035,0:16:45.447 that have been acceptable for lots of different people, 0:16:45.447,0:16:50.945 and I think that we can bring that creativity to all different kinds of organizing 0:16:50.945,0:16:52.346 around direct action. 0:16:52.346,0:16:55.616 and even just like case actions, 0:16:55.616,0:17:01.355 where, um, disabled people have oftentimes fought Disability or Welfare to get what they need. 0:17:01.355,0:17:05.359 Um, but also disabled people oftentimes 0:17:05.359,0:17:11.932 instead of having our bodies treated as burdens or hazzards, 0:17:11.932,0:17:17.004 use our bodies in ways that are really powerful in direct action. 0:17:17.004,0:17:22.924 And i think that a lot of times people fall into boxes of what direct action means 0:17:22.924,0:17:23.911 and what it looks like, 0:17:23.911,0:17:25.943 and, and, broadening that box 0:17:25.943,0:17:30.151 and making sure that it's inclusive and accessible to people is really important. 0:17:30.151,0:17:34.884 And in doing that, oftentimes actions can be stronger and more powerful. 0:17:43.172,0:17:46.005 We often exclude people with disabilities in our movements, 0:17:46.005,0:17:47.367 or during our events, 0:17:47.367,0:17:49.674 I think we don't, we often don't think about their issues, 0:17:49.674,0:17:52.873 and, but, it's part of everybody's issues, 0:17:52.873,0:17:54.742 because everybody at one point will be disabled, 0:17:54.742,0:17:57.078 either temporarily or permanently. 0:17:57.078,0:17:59.513 So it's something that affects everybody, 0:17:59.513,0:18:04.085 every single person will be affected with disability issue. 0:18:04.085,0:18:06.954 In terms of the way that people organize, 0:18:06.954,0:18:16.697 um, often times radicals will view people's worth in a movement with how much they produce, 0:18:16.697,0:18:18.298 and how productive they are. 0:18:18.298,0:18:23.571 And that is just like a, an adoption of a capitalist value 0:18:23.571,0:18:26.040 that's really unfortunate and problematic, 0:18:26.040,0:18:33.814 and shifting that to value people for any number of ways that they participate in the community, 0:18:33.814,0:18:36.851 beyond what's viewed as production, 0:18:36.851,0:18:39.553 is really important 0:18:39.553,0:18:43.357 and is something that I think a lot of anarchists really struggle with. 0:18:43.357,0:18:49.463 So, collective responsibility is, um, sort of a concept that is present in anarchism 0:18:49.463,0:18:52.971 that describes how, 0:18:52.971,0:18:59.340 it sort of puts into practice I think our focus on the social over the individual. 0:18:59.340,0:19:02.724 So not only am I responsible for the things that I do individually, 0:19:02.724,0:19:04.712 but also the things that happen around me. 0:19:04.712,0:19:07.281 Um, just to give a really quick practical example, 0:19:07.281,0:19:09.643 if I'm in a political organization, 0:19:09.643,0:19:12.119 and I didn't promise to make the poster, 0:19:12.119,0:19:13.687 but someone else did, 0:19:13.687,0:19:17.057 but I never took the time to ask them, you know, if they needed help, 0:19:17.057,0:19:21.795 if the poster doesn't get made, it is also my responsibility as well as theirs. 0:19:21.795,0:19:24.086 Right? Even though... so it's focusing on the social, 0:19:24.086,0:19:27.201 sort of like taking precedence over the individual. 0:19:27.201,0:19:31.470 Um, how I think that relates to disability that's important, 0:19:31.470,0:19:35.476 is that it can also relate to issues around accessibility. 0:19:35.476,0:19:41.547 Um, so that we would all have a collective responsibility 0:19:41.547,0:19:46.853 to make the spaces that we work in politically, 0:19:46.853,0:19:48.855 accessible to as many people as possible. 0:19:48.855,0:19:52.321 I think what we should be trying for, 0:19:52.321,0:19:58.065 is to create spaces where we are responsible for what we do, 0:19:58.065,0:20:00.588 but where there's also support available, 0:20:00.588,0:20:04.738 and where there's also a culture where it's OK to ask for that support when needed. 0:20:04.738,0:20:08.993 Um, I think that in terms of mutual aid and collective responsibility, 0:20:08.993,0:20:11.408 that it shouldn't be so much about 0:20:11.408,0:20:14.381 "oh, ok, well we have to provide these accommodations for this person, 0:20:14.381,0:20:16.583 and we have to make sure that there's a ramp for this person", 0:20:16.583,0:20:17.718 and that kind of thing. 0:20:17.718,0:20:21.188 As much as like building, 0:20:21.188,0:20:23.757 sort of like building a broader culture of solidarity 0:20:23.757,0:20:27.761 where we all take responsibility for ensuring that the space allows for as much as possible 0:20:27.761,0:20:30.487 the full participation of anyone who would want to participate. 0:20:30.764,0:20:33.200 One of the ways that anarchist organizations can structure themselves 0:20:33.200,0:20:36.764 is implementing a culture within their organization 0:20:36.764,0:20:41.501 that um automatically looks at accessibility, 0:20:41.501,0:20:44.611 and interdependence, 0:20:44.611,0:20:47.314 and ways of talking about meeting people's needs, 0:20:47.314,0:20:49.916 and ensuring that people can get in the door, 0:20:49.916,0:20:54.154 and can have meaningful participation in an organization. 0:20:54.154,0:20:57.337 Um, but also ensuring that people have... 0:20:57.337,0:21:02.029 that organizations put forward demands that are inclusive of disability issues, 0:21:02.029,0:21:04.768 and are not tokenistic, 0:21:04.768,0:21:10.526 but are, come from disabled people and from disabled communities 0:21:10.526,0:21:13.702 around what we actually need and are fighting for. 0:21:20.614,0:21:22.015 Like as a member of Common Cause 0:21:22.015,0:21:24.690 with mostly just one other person in Common Cause, 0:21:24.690,0:21:26.253 like, I started looking at some of this stuff, 0:21:26.253,0:21:29.523 and tried to bring it to other people in the organization 0:21:29.523,0:21:31.058 who maybe werent as familiar with it, 0:21:31.058,0:21:33.607 or hadnt realyl had much interest in it. 0:21:33.607,0:21:39.099 i think... sometimes theres a lack... 0:21:39.099,0:21:41.835 i think people maybe had certain preconceptions 0:21:41.835,0:21:44.938 about what radical disability politics were about. 0:21:44.938,0:21:48.514 one of them maybe being that they're for certain people, 0:21:48.514,0:21:50.604 that it's for disabled people. 0:21:50.604,0:21:55.016 And i think what a lot of people maybe realize 0:21:55.016,0:21:57.684 because we've seen some more interest in it, 0:21:57.684,0:21:59.799 is that if affects... 0:21:59.799,0:22:02.156 the things we're talking about in terms of, um, 0:22:02.156,0:22:08.329 being either disabled by society, by work, by school, 0:22:08.329,0:22:10.597 are things that a lot of people have experienced, 0:22:10.597,0:22:12.198 but if youre not experiencing that, 0:22:12.198,0:22:15.542 what youre experiencing is almost like a process of beig "abled" 0:22:15.542,0:22:17.904 You're experiencing the other side of that, 0:22:17.904,0:22:20.279 and that can also bring a lot of tensions, right? 0:22:20.279,0:22:21.775 Like there can be... 0:22:21.775,0:22:23.376 you can kind of feel like... 0:22:23.376,0:22:25.612 even if youre having a really hard time 0:22:25.612,0:22:27.214 like physically or emotionally, 0:22:27.214,0:22:29.015 you dont want to let people know at your work 0:22:29.015,0:22:31.318 because you're going to sort of fall into this other category or person. 0:22:31.318,0:22:36.069 So I think what is important for anarchists to realize, 0:22:36.069,0:22:40.341 & I think whats come out of some of the discussions I've had with other Common Cause members 0:22:40.341,0:22:46.518 is that these questions of like um who is excluded and included in different spaces 0:22:46.518,0:22:51.504 and sort of like how we support each other 0:22:51.504,0:22:55.062 and how we place value on different activities 0:22:55.062,0:22:57.013 I think is something that affects all people, 0:22:57.013,0:23:02.349 and these politics are essential for understanding how we analyze the world 0:23:02.349,0:23:04.151 and the kind of changes that we would want. 0:23:04.351,0:23:07.788 Having an analysis that we don't want to be reformist, 0:23:07.788,0:23:10.824 that like this movement shouldn't be a reformist movement, 0:23:10.824,0:23:13.313 this should be a revolutionary movement, 0:23:13.313,0:23:20.500 so although we wanna try to make people's life better on the day to day, 0:23:20.500,0:23:22.335 like for example the Raise The Rates campaign 0:23:22.335,0:23:26.940 on increasing the Ontario Works and ODSP 0:23:26.940,0:23:36.016 so increasing the support programs, the money for programs up to 40%, 0:23:36.016,0:23:37.918 will make their lives better, 0:23:37.918,0:23:39.686 so we wanna fight for those things too, 0:23:39.686,0:23:42.623 but we wanna have an analysis of like a revolutionary, 0:23:42.623,0:23:45.961 like the end of capitalism and the state, 0:23:45.961,0:23:48.493 not just trying to reform what the state is doing right now. 0:23:51.951,0:23:57.570 So theres a lot of different things that, um, anarchist organizations can do, 0:23:57.570,0:23:59.372 and there's really practical things, 0:23:59.372,0:24:06.213 and there's kind of often times messier and harder, um, institutional things that can happen. 0:24:06.213,0:24:12.486 So there's like an infinite number of issues that cross over 0:24:12.486,0:24:16.490 and like I said before, I'm an anarchist and do radical disability work, 0:24:16.490,0:24:19.326 and for me there's not a cross over, 0:24:19.326,0:24:21.795 they're completely integrated, 0:24:21.795,0:24:26.038 but, um, even for people that there's not this like basic issues 0:24:26.038,0:24:32.706 around poverty and segregation, and like the forced encarceration 0:24:32.706,0:24:36.710 of many many people who are labeled as disabled, 0:24:36.710,0:24:40.710 um, the way that capitalism plays out in disabled people's lives. 0:24:41.048,0:24:43.500 The different components that make up capitalism 0:24:43.500,0:24:48.388 it's not just about how can anarchists engage in mass movements 0:24:48.388,0:24:52.230 particularly structured around disability theory 0:24:52.230,0:24:56.329 or mass struggles of disabled people, 0:24:56.329,0:24:59.599 although that is stuff that has to be fought out, 0:24:59.599,0:25:01.901 like in our cities, in our workplaces, 0:25:01.901,0:25:07.407 issues of accessibility, um, uh, casualization of employment, 0:25:07.407,0:25:10.017 or just like chronic unemployment. 0:25:10.017,0:25:15.716 It's not just about how can anarchists participate in mass movements structured around disability, 0:25:15.716,0:25:19.586 but how can a more thorough understanding of 0:25:19.586,0:25:25.688 the importance of disability being incorporated within all the mass struggles that we have. 0:25:27.294,0:25:28.963 Um, I think another thing that we can do 0:25:28.963,0:25:32.700 is that, so then, when we start to get these ideas, 0:25:32.700,0:25:36.403 even if it's just very like basic, new ideas, 0:25:36.403,0:25:38.705 to start to bring that to some of our mass work, 0:25:38.705,0:25:41.921 is trying to sort of link up different issues. 0:25:41.921,0:25:44.429 Like a very basic example was, um, 0:25:44.429,0:25:47.080 in like a mass organization that a number of us in Common Cause are part of, 0:25:47.080,0:25:49.883 there was a campaign that was posed for free transit. 0:25:49.883,0:25:52.420 And one of our members made an amendment to that 0:25:52.420,0:25:55.122 to make it a campaign to make it free and accessible transit. 0:25:55.122,0:25:59.260 So just this like, and this isnt someone who had any particular knowledge of disability, 0:25:59.260,0:26:02.396 who would consider themselves disabled or anything like that, 0:26:02.396,0:26:05.933 um, but from that it's become a part of the campaign 0:26:05.933,0:26:08.903 where different disability groups are involved in that, 0:26:08.903,0:26:12.806 and it's something that, there have been actions around accessibility 0:26:12.806,0:26:14.775 and this isn't something Common Cause has done, 0:26:14.775,0:26:17.477 but its something that we we're able to sort of introduce that, 0:26:17.477,0:26:24.452 I think, um, too, even if we're not focusing on struggles that are specific to disability 0:26:24.452,0:26:26.520 to try to see how we can bring that in, 0:26:26.520,0:26:28.989 so if members are involved in anti-prison struggle, 0:26:28.989,0:26:31.426 how can we bring an analysis around other institutions 0:26:31.426,0:26:33.423 that exist that are disability focused? 0:26:33.423,0:26:35.963 What's the relationship between psychiatric institutions and prisons? 0:26:35.963,0:26:38.113 I think trying to sort of make those links, 0:26:38.113,0:26:41.335 and to connect those struggles is a role that we can have 0:26:41.335,0:26:44.492 because we tend to have members involved in a lot of different groups. 0:26:45.339,0:26:47.541 Um, theres a bunch of different ways that people 0:26:47.541,0:26:50.477 can work with different organizations, 0:26:50.477,0:26:54.682 like neighbourhood communities, unions, and student groups. 0:26:54.682,0:26:57.804 One of the ways is articulating disability politics 0:26:57.804,0:27:00.488 in a way that makes sense to those organizations. 0:27:00.488,0:27:04.291 So sometimes the way the conversation that you have with different groups 0:27:04.291,0:27:05.659 is going to be slightly different. 0:27:05.659,0:27:10.597 But around union organizing, talking about injured workers, 0:27:10.597,0:27:13.454 and talking about capitalism and oppression, 0:27:13.454,0:27:16.737 and, uh, the exclusion of disabled people 0:27:16.737,0:27:21.742 and the impact that has on workers across the board. 0:27:21.742,0:27:24.182 With respect to neighbourhood organizations, 0:27:24.182,0:27:28.640 there's uh, every neighbourhood has disabled people in it, 0:27:28.640,0:27:32.887 and that are a really vibrant, important part of every community, 0:27:32.887,0:27:36.024 and so, working to help people understand that 0:27:36.024,0:27:38.346 and recognize the places (?) where that is, 0:27:38.346,0:27:42.362 and, uh, working with people to help build bridges, 0:27:42.362,0:27:44.842 and incorporate disabled people and disability issues into that community. 0:27:51.442,0:28:01.015 I don't think its utopic to, uh, to propose an abolition of social stratification, 0:28:01.015,0:28:08.022 and in that disability is predominantly ... 0:28:08.022,0:28:14.361 there's a difference between the conditions under which a human body finds itself, 0:28:14.361,0:28:16.194 or is put in, 0:28:16.194,0:28:21.435 and whether or not they're conceived of as disabled or able bodied. 0:28:21.435,0:28:26.373 Um, like that, like you were saying , that is a social construction. 0:28:26.373,0:28:36.784 And it's not utopic to um work towards the abolition of that social construction. 0:28:36.784,0:28:38.950 I think it's also important to keep in mind that like 0:28:38.950,0:28:44.198 many, if, like thinking about the future, 0:28:44.198,0:28:48.929 and about like how a lot of the current social processes of disablement 0:28:48.929,0:28:52.975 would be unnecessary 0:28:52.975,0:28:55.302 and in a lot of ways unhelpful, right? 0:28:55.302,0:28:58.973 Like the need to create the separation between deserving and undeserving poor, 0:28:58.973,0:29:01.442 and to legitimize things in that way, 0:29:01.442,0:29:05.446 like without that, the need to sort of label people as disabled, 0:29:05.446,0:29:08.015 how that is helpful kind of goes away. 0:29:08.015,0:29:10.751 And I would never think that in the future, if we lived without capitalism 0:29:10.751,0:29:14.521 that like, what I have that could be described as mental illness would go away, 0:29:14.521,0:29:20.961 but I would like to live in a world where I wouldn't have to worry about like 0:29:20.961,0:29:24.931 seeking, like if i needed help, seeking it because of an employer finding out 0:29:24.931,0:29:28.435 because of a box you check on a form when you apply for jobs or soemthing like that. 0:29:28.435,0:29:31.892 Like that aspect of it that just makes things harder, 0:29:31.892,0:29:35.651 like I don't think it's utopic to talk about that going away.