WEBVTT

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Thank you, everyone to be here,

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sorry for the improvising and

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the impromptu condition

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of this press conference,

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as you also know,

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there is very very little, if any,

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representation of civil society in this eG8

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In last minute on Thursday,

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they threw in some foldable chairs for us,

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they improvised some freedom of expression panel

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just to say that our issues

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were represented after all.

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But what we saw yesterday

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was Nicolas Sarkozy addressing

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only CEOs and business actors,

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telling them You are the Internet,

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You are the revolution and

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You are doing everything.

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And you now have the responsibility

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to fight the pedonazis,

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the terrorists, and the copyright wars

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so this is something that disturbs us,

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I think, all of us, here.

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Maybe each of us will make

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a quick statement of 4 to 5 minutes

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let's say 4 minutes if we can do it

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We have fantastic people around here

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from Yochai Benkler of the Berkman Center

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to Jean-François Julliard of Reporters Sans Frontières

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to Susan, how would you define yourself?

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Susan Crawford, former ICANN board member.

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Professor Lawrence Lessig who doesn't need any

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introduction at all, and Jeff Jarvis.

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Maybe Susan, you can begin.

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The communique's already been drafted

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for this g8 summit,

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errr meeting, this e-g8 meeting.

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It's been leaked to the NYtimes

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which published this story this morning,

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explaining exactly what the communique would say

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The reason this press conference has been called is

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that civil society groups have joined together

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from around the world,

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to issue a very short and simple statement

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calling on the eG8 and in turn the G8

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to protect the open Internet

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to maintain the neutrality of the Internet,

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to establish the principles that encourage

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the free flow of the information

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All of us sitting up here today

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understand as do you out there

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that an open Internet is actually the basis

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for a democratic flourishing around the world

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that all government policies

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that hoped to encourage citizens

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to flourish including education,

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health, energy policy...

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every variety of policy

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that operates in the world today

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are all encouraged by the existence of an open Internet

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and that access to the Internet

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is fundamental to human beings around the world

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These are the most important policies

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that governments should be embracing :

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an open, fast and fair, and free Internet

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so it's a very simple reason for this conference.

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We wanna make sure that

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these other voices are heard

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even though the communique itself

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may already have been drafted.

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I call on my colleagues here,

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Mr Jarvis, Mr Lessig, Mr Benkler and

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Reporters Without Borders

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to amplify on these remarks.

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But it's really very simple :

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we feel these voices aren't being heard

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We really want to ensure that the voiceless,

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the future that hasn't been invited to this conference,

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is allowed to have its say as well.

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Thank you Suzan

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We have a few copies here

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of the civil society statement to the eG8 and G8.

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The signature list is not the latest one

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You can see groups such as Access Now

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who couldn't get a badge to enter here

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the Association for Progressive Communications

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I won’t name them all, but

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there is german Digitale Gesellschaft,

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the Electronic Frontier Foundation,

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the European EDRI and so on and so on…

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There is also this petition,

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that was organized by Access Now,

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that has been signed now by people

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from more than nineteen countries

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to reclaim exactly what was mentioned before

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which is all that is not at the eG8

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So, maybe we will hear now Jean-François,

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because he will be leaving for a workshop later on

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and yep : Reporters Without Borders.

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Yeah, thank you, I’m going to speak in French,

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I’m sorry for those who don’t understand French,

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but I will say the same during

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the next panel in a couple of minutes,

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but I would like to say a few words

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in French because there are many French reporters here.

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I am extremely disappointed by what is said here,

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in this meeting from the start

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because we gathered the top people concerned with

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the internet throughout the world

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the CEOs of the biggest companies

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those that made Internet’s

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extraordinary growth possible

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whereas there hasn’t been a single word

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concerning those who are suffering

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because of the Internet

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I think of the 126 people who are now in jail,

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126 bloggers NetCitizens, Internet users

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who are jailed in Iran, in China, in Libya, in Vietnam

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and in a whole lot of other countries,

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who are jailed only because they have used Internet

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I find this outrageous

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that no one had a thought for them yet,

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none of the leaders in the Internet sector

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who talked since the beginning of the meeting

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have had a thought for them

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It is good to want to promote Internet,

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but we should start with having a thought for those

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who are suffering from this.

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And I can also tell that if we need

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to make only one recommendation to the G8

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and the governments that compose the G8,

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it would be to put the defence

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of a Free internet before anything else.

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There is today one person in three in the world,

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one internet user in three,

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who doesn’t have access to a free internet.

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So before thinking of regulation,

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before thinking of even defending intellectual property,

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before thinking to promote

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economic transactions on the Internet,

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we need to focus on keeping Internet free

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Focus on allowing the Internet users,

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all around the world,

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wherever they might be,

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to keep accessing a free Internet,

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and to keep accessing the same Internet.

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So if we have to make only one recommendation,

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it’s this one,

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disregarding any other recommendation,

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the G8 governments need to make the defence

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of a Free internet their one absolute priority.

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Thank you Jean-François.

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It's very hard now to choose

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who between those impressive analysts

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will speak first

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Shall we cast a vote ?

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Professor Lessig, maybe ?

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Yes, so, I just spoke and I'll be very brief.

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It's surprising to come to France

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and find something so deeply American going on

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In the United States, for the last 30 years,

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we've been trapped in an ideology

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that says that we should regulate

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by getting business together

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and ask them what is good public policy.

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We've done that in the United States

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to our great detriment.

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The financial crisis brought about by deregulation

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pushed on the American government by

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financial interests who benefited

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and then brought the economy down

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And in every other area of Internet policy

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we see the same thing

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we have no broadband

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as Bankler's report for the Berkman Center demonstrates,

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we have no penetration,

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no effect of broadband in the United States

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because of a strong policy of deregulation

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that the American government bought,

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and it bought because the only people

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they cared to listen to were business

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So to come to France,

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and to see an event like this

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where the presumption of the President is

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« Get the biggest businesses together

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and ask them what the future

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of the internet should be » is astonishing

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it’s just...

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You know, I did a little bit of French philosophy,

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but I don’t remember the French philosopher

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who said : « Public policy is best devised

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by asking the businesses

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to draw up the public policy ».

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That doesn’t sound very French to me.

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So I’d love to come back to the Paris

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that I loved before,

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which is not the American version of Paris,

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but the French version of Paris

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by a reminder that they are more interests

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than the interest of business.

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Business is important,

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and in business there is a division between

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the incumbents and the innovators

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and we have to keep that division alive.

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But there is also the people

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who built the internet.

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They weren’t originally business,

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it was civil society, it was ISOC,

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it was ICANN... it was not ICANN, it was IETF

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but it was a bunch of people who just aren’t here

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so I agree with Susan,

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we need to find a way to remind the people here,

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that the people who are not here,

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who are just as important to the story as them.

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To avoid repeating

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the critical change produced by

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the digital network environment

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is the radical decentralization

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of the capacity to speak, to create,

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to innovate, to see together, to socialize,

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the radical distribution of the poor means

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of production, computations, communications,

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storage, sensing, capture, human sociality

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that which gets us together

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inside the experience,

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being there on the ground.

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That is true for the first time

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since the industrial revolution,

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that people can actually,

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with the things they own,

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capture the world and do something

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that is at the very core

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of the most advanced economies.

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Preserving that framework,

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preserving a framework that is open,

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free-flowing, flexible, adaptive to change

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and inviting so that one person's sacrifice

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in Sidi Bouzid can then be translated

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throughout the Arab world into

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a moment of mobilization

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That’s new, that’s what is critical.

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For over fifteen years now,

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we have seen two opposing camps

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around the question of internet policy.

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One camp is the camp of the 20th century incumbents,

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who are afraid that something will change

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who are afraid of the people rising to participate

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afraid of the outsiders innovating,

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and coming from the edges

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who aren't authorized by the incumbents to innovate

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who don’t have to come and say

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« Will you please implement this

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for me on your network? ».

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These are all the companies

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that we see now as great fifteen years ago

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were from the outside

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That’s where the source of innovation is

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And the other model has been

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« Let’s keep things open,

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let’s keep things flexible, let’s keep things flow. »

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And this opposition between those who say

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« It’s going too fast, slow it down,

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make it manageable, make it safe »

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and those who say

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« It’s extraordinary, it’s creative, let’s open this up,

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because we’re in a process of

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continuous experimentation,

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and adaptation, and learning.»

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This is an enormous learning moment.

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That opposition has been there for fifteen years

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and occasionally we’ve seen periods

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such as in the United States twelve years ago

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where the approach of shutting things down

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making Internet Service Providers

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have to look upon of what it is that the content

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of their producers, regulating on software

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regulating new services

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to make sure that they don't make too much

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of a threat to the incumbent industries win.

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Then there was a long period of lolling

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in between where we understood

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the centrality of the commons

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where we understood the centrality of what's open

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and now what is baffling about this two days

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is the seeming resurgence of what we saw

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ten, twelve, fifteen years ago

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as though we had learned nothing.

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When people yesterday on the panel on IP

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were talking about if we don't have

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strong intellectual property

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the Internet will be just

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an empty set of tubes and boxes,

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I heard that fifteen years ago, and maybe,

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maybe then it was a plausible assumption.

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Today, it is laughable,

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except that it seems to have the ear of power.

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So, I think that what's critical here,

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is to understand is that there are pathways,

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like the Hargreaves Report from last week

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shows a pathway that says: No!

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I don't have to lock things down,

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I have to be very careful about

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locking things down for IP

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instead I need to explore ways

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to open and allow flows.

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That's the critical opposition.

00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:28.500
Achieving socially desirable

00:13:28.500 --> 00:13:30.500
and acceptable and legitimate goals

00:13:30.500 --> 00:13:34.500
while retaining an open fluid free Internet.

00:13:34.500 --> 00:13:39.000
Versus, being so scared of the new,

00:13:39.000 --> 00:13:41.000
that you are willing to lock it down,

00:13:41.000 --> 00:13:43.500
or to try to lock it down and to distort it.

00:13:43.500 --> 00:13:45.500
That's the opposition on which we all have to be

00:13:45.500 --> 00:13:48.500
-- whether it's about business, and innovation

00:13:48.500 --> 00:13:51.500
about social equality and access,

00:13:51.500 --> 00:13:54.000
or about democracy and participation

00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:58.000
whether it's about liberty, equality or fraternity

00:13:58.000 --> 00:14:01.000
-- we all have to be on the same side of the path

00:14:01.000 --> 00:14:02.500
of retaining an open net

00:14:03.500 --> 00:14:06.000
Thank you. Yes.

00:14:07.004 --> 00:14:09.500
I find myself profoundly frightened

00:14:09.500 --> 00:14:11.000
in these two days

00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:12.500
I'm frightened of those who are so

00:14:12.500 --> 00:14:15.500
frightened of change that they will try to stop it.

00:14:15.500 --> 00:14:18.000
The Internet is not governments,

00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:20.500
I said to President Sarkozy yesterday,

00:14:20.500 --> 00:14:22.500
yet the government tries to act as if it is.

00:14:22.500 --> 00:14:25.000
He said it was not clear,

00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:27.000
he feels he has the authority to regulate it.

00:14:27.000 --> 00:14:29.000
I tweeted this morning

00:14:29.000 --> 00:14:30.500
that I felt rather like a native,

00:14:30.500 --> 00:14:32.500
to be so presumptuous,

00:14:32.500 --> 00:14:35.000
of the Americas or of Africa

00:14:35.000 --> 00:14:37.000
when the colonist ships

00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:39.000
would come in to civilize it

00:14:39.000 --> 00:14:41.000
« We have nothing to fear »

00:14:41.000 --> 00:14:43.500
As the CTO of the Verizon Administration

00:14:43.500 --> 00:14:45.000
in America calls it,

00:14:45.000 --> 00:14:47.000
the Internet is « The Eighth Continent ».

00:14:47.000 --> 00:14:48.500
It is a new land;

00:14:48.500 --> 00:14:50.000
it has not been colonized,

00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:51.500
there is no flag from France

00:14:51.500 --> 00:14:54.500
or the US or the UK or anyone on it.

00:14:54.500 --> 00:14:56.000
It is ours.

00:14:56.000 --> 00:14:57.500
So, to that extent

00:14:57.500 --> 00:15:00.000
I don't blame President Sarkozy

00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:03.000
and Publicis at all for convening this meeting

00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:05.000
because they are filling a vacuum

00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:07.000
that we the people have left.

00:15:07.000 --> 00:15:09.000
Then I think it is incumbent upon us,

00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:11.000
the citizens of this 8th continent,

00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:12.500
of this new land,

00:15:12.500 --> 00:15:15.000
to hold and convene our own meeting,

00:15:15.000 --> 00:15:16.500
and our own discussion,

00:15:16.500 --> 00:15:17.500
so we can invite,

00:15:17.500 --> 00:15:19.000
we should invite, the governments,

00:15:19.000 --> 00:15:21.000
we should invite the companies.

00:15:21.000 --> 00:15:22.500
But I'd rather this discussion

00:15:22.500 --> 00:15:23.500
was held at our table,

00:15:23.500 --> 00:15:25.500
rather then at government's table,

00:15:25.500 --> 00:15:27.500
which is what's happening here.

00:15:27.500 --> 00:15:30.000
So what does that discussion need to entail?

00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:33.000
I don't think that we need to have

00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:35.500
Constitution or a set of laws on the Internet.

00:15:35.500 --> 00:15:39.500
This... as my esteemed colleagues up here say,

00:15:39.500 --> 00:15:42.000
it is the very architecture of the Internet,

00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:43.500
that is its best protection

00:15:43.500 --> 00:15:45.500
that is its very openness,

00:15:45.500 --> 00:15:47.000
that is its best protection to stay open.

00:15:47.000 --> 00:15:49.000
And the fact that it is distributed.

00:15:49.000 --> 00:15:51.000
So I think that we need to have

00:15:51.000 --> 00:15:54.000
a discussion of principles

00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:55.500
as I say, or in... in...

00:15:55.500 --> 00:15:58.000
it won't end in some sort of statute or constitution

00:15:58.000 --> 00:15:59.500
because I don't think it should.

00:15:59.500 --> 00:16:01.000
Yet I do think we need to have a discussion,

00:16:01.000 --> 00:16:02.500
because we need principles we can point

00:16:02.500 --> 00:16:04.000
to when we see them violated,

00:16:04.000 --> 00:16:06.500
when we see Verizon, and Google,

00:16:06.500 --> 00:16:08.000
right I am going to talk about Google,

00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:09.500
I am a certified fanboy

00:16:09.500 --> 00:16:11.000
but I am very disapointed in Google

00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:13.000
for doing a devil's pact with Verizon

00:16:13.000 --> 00:16:14.000
to cut up the Internet,

00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:16.000
into the Internet and Schminternet

00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:18.500
when you are on the wire it acts one way,

00:16:18.500 --> 00:16:20.500
when you are out of the wire it acts another way

00:16:20.500 --> 00:16:22.000
it's all in one Internet.

00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:24.000
So, what are those principles?

00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:25.500
On my blog I wrote a post

00:16:25.500 --> 00:16:27.000
that led up to my question

00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:28.500
to President Sarkozy yesterday

00:16:28.500 --> 00:16:30.000
on my suggestion that he and others

00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:31.000
take an Hippocratic Oath,

00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:32.000
and I'm so honored to have been quoted by

00:16:32.000 --> 00:16:35.500
Professor Lessig in a Lessig Powerpoint,

00:16:35.500 --> 00:16:37.000
I'm sorry keynote,

00:16:37.000 --> 00:16:41.000
I'm sorry we'll have an au revoir on this, but I...

00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:43.000
There are many good efforts

00:16:43.000 --> 00:16:44.500
to build Bills of Rights for the Internet,

00:16:44.500 --> 00:16:46.500
and I have thrown out my humble suggestions,

00:16:46.500 --> 00:16:47.500
and they weren't certainly wrong,

00:16:47.500 --> 00:16:49.000
but I think among them

00:16:49.000 --> 00:16:50.500
there is the right to connect,

00:16:50.500 --> 00:16:52.500
and when someone cuts off that right

00:16:52.500 --> 00:16:54.500
it's a violation of Human Rights.

00:16:54.500 --> 00:16:57.000
So when Egypt cuts off the Internet connection,

00:16:57.000 --> 00:16:59.000
the Human Rights have been violated.

00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:01.500
That right to connect is a preamble

00:17:01.500 --> 00:17:03.500
to the right of free speech.

00:17:03.500 --> 00:17:05.500
And what follows the right of free speech

00:17:05.500 --> 00:17:07.500
is the right to act and to assemble.

00:17:07.500 --> 00:17:09.000
It was in the French constitution

00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:11.000
that the notion of the right

00:17:11.000 --> 00:17:13.000
to assemble was invented.

00:17:13.000 --> 00:17:15.500
I think we need a notion that

00:17:15.500 --> 00:17:18.000
our information of our institutions

00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:19.000
and of our government

00:17:19.000 --> 00:17:20.500
should be open by default,

00:17:20.500 --> 00:17:23.000
and closed only by necessity.

00:17:23.000 --> 00:17:25.000
We are the opposite today.

00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:26.500
I think we have to have an understanding

00:17:26.500 --> 00:17:29.000
of what it means to be private and to be public.

00:17:29.005 --> 00:17:30.500
I wrote a whole book on that

00:17:30.500 --> 00:17:31.500
- I won't bore you with that.

00:17:31.500 --> 00:17:33.000
I think we have to respond

00:17:33.000 --> 00:17:35.000
to the notion of net neutrality by saying that

00:17:35.000 --> 00:17:36.500
all bits are created equal,

00:17:36.500 --> 00:17:38.500
and that when anyone restricts a bit

00:17:38.500 --> 00:17:40.500
for any reason, whether that it was a telco

00:17:40.500 --> 00:17:42.000
to restrict how you watch a movie,

00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:44.000
whether that it is China restricting you

00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:45.500
to search for Falun Gong,

00:17:45.500 --> 00:17:47.500
or is that Egypt cutting off the internet,

00:17:47.500 --> 00:17:49.500
whatever the flow of the internet that is restricted,

00:17:49.500 --> 00:17:51.500
the whole internet is restricted.

00:17:51.500 --> 00:17:53.000
And so finally we have to hold up

00:17:53.000 --> 00:17:55.000
to the structure of the internet

00:17:55.000 --> 00:17:56.000
to be open and distributed

00:17:56.000 --> 00:17:58.000
because that is its only defense.

00:17:58.000 --> 00:18:01.000
But I would argue... I would say that...

00:18:01.000 --> 00:18:04.000
they convened you've gone today.

00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:06.500
It's very important and should continue

00:18:06.500 --> 00:18:08.500
and we need to talk about these issues

00:18:08.500 --> 00:18:10.000
at the table of the internet,

00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:12.000
and not at this table here,

00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:15.000
or not only at this table here.

00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:17.500
Before we go to questions I have

00:18:17.500 --> 00:18:22.000
comments myself on this whole « eG8 » thing.

00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:24.000
Thank you for restating.

00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:26.500
I think that beyond the right to connect,

00:18:26.500 --> 00:18:29.500
it's existing fundamental rights

00:18:29.500 --> 00:18:31.500
that are being used through the internet.

00:18:31.500 --> 00:18:33.500
There is maybe no need to define

00:18:33.500 --> 00:18:35.500
new freedoms because it's the existing

00:18:35.500 --> 00:18:37.000
freedoms that are being attacked today.

00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:39.500
So this eG8 forum,

00:18:39.500 --> 00:18:43.000
beyond the local political whitewash

00:18:43.000 --> 00:18:47.000
of Nicolas Sarkozy, after 4 years of pushing

00:18:47.000 --> 00:18:48.500
for disconnecting French citizens

00:18:48.500 --> 00:18:50.000
with the HADOPI law,

00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:52.000
censorship of web content with the LOPPSI,

00:18:52.000 --> 00:18:54.500
and pushing of his notion of a « civilized internet »,

00:18:54.500 --> 00:18:57.000
he pushed up to the organization of this event.

00:18:57.000 --> 00:19:00.500
Beyond that local political whitewash,

00:19:00.500 --> 00:19:04.000
this eG8 forum is to me a smokescreen

00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:06.500
to what the governments are really

00:19:06.500 --> 00:19:08.500
doing towards the Internet.

00:19:08.500 --> 00:19:10.500
In the last twelve months,

00:19:10.500 --> 00:19:14.000
we witnessed an increase in the rate of

00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:17.000
repressive measures attacking the Internet,

00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:19.500
attacking our fundamental freedoms.

00:19:19.500 --> 00:19:22.000
I'm thinking of the US government reaction

00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:24.500
to Wikileaks, the US government seizure

00:19:24.500 --> 00:19:26.000
of domain names,

00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:28.000
the COICA PROTECT-IP act,

00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:31.000
the conclusion of the ACTA

00:19:31.000 --> 00:19:32.500
(Anti Counterfeiting Trade Agreement)

00:19:32.500 --> 00:19:35.000
that will turn internet actors into

00:19:35.000 --> 00:19:36.000
private copyright police

00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:38.500
the blackout of Internet in Egypt of course,

00:19:38.500 --> 00:19:41.000
the administrative censorship of websites

00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:43.500
in France, and other countries of Europe.

00:19:43.500 --> 00:19:45.000
Everywhere you look,

00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:47.000
governments are trying

00:19:47.000 --> 00:19:48.500
to gain control of the Internet.

00:19:48.500 --> 00:19:50.500
And what we are being sold here

00:19:50.500 --> 00:19:54.000
is the red carpet to those, Orange,

00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:57.000
Vivendi, Alcatel-Lucent and so on.

00:19:57.000 --> 00:19:58.500
But if you look a little bit closer,

00:19:58.500 --> 00:20:00.500
those very companies

00:20:00.500 --> 00:20:03.500
are more and more basing their business models

00:20:03.500 --> 00:20:05.500
on the restriction of fundamental freedoms.

00:20:05.500 --> 00:20:08.000
Orange by selling this non-neutral

00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:10.000
so-called « mobile Internet access »,

00:20:10.000 --> 00:20:13.000
Vivendi by pushing for the tougher

00:20:13.000 --> 00:20:16.500
copyright vision, 19th century vision

00:20:16.500 --> 00:20:19.000
where you try to forbid copies at all costs

00:20:19.000 --> 00:20:21.500
even if it implies to ban freedom to read,

00:20:21.500 --> 00:20:24.000
share and access culture;

00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:27.500
Alcatel-Lucent and Huawei are manufacturing

00:20:27.500 --> 00:20:29.000
the devices that are being used

00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:31.000
in authoritarian regimes to censor the Internet,

00:20:31.000 --> 00:20:33.000
and by telecoms operators

00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:34.500
who harm our freedom of communication

00:20:34.500 --> 00:20:36.000
by harming net neutrality

00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:38.000
So we, the citizens,

00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:40.500
would expect from the governments

00:20:40.500 --> 00:20:43.000
that they protect us from those corporations,

00:20:43.000 --> 00:20:45.500
that they regulate the behaviours,

00:20:45.500 --> 00:20:47.500
whether they're anti-competitive

00:20:47.500 --> 00:20:49.000
or against our fundamental freedoms

00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:52.000
from the corporations, but instead of that,

00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:55.000
what we see here is the glitter and a red carpet.

00:20:57.000 --> 00:20:59.000
Now if you have questions,

00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:01.500
I see Jean-François has to leave,

00:21:01.500 --> 00:21:02.500
but maybe if you're late to

00:21:02.500 --> 00:21:04.000
that thing it will be all right.

00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:05.500
5 minutes or something?

00:21:05.500 --> 00:21:07.500
I mean, they're French, they will be late already.

00:21:07.500 --> 00:21:10.000
Yes, of course but it will be another audience,

00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:11.500
to tell the same, so I want to use

00:21:11.500 --> 00:21:13.000
this opportunity as well

00:21:13.000 --> 00:21:16.500
to raise this issue in a more official format as well.

00:21:16.500 --> 00:21:18.000
You have maybe three or four minutes,

00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:19.500
if then one has questions directed to Jean-François,

00:21:19.500 --> 00:21:22.000
maybe first the questions directed to Jean-François ?

00:21:23.500 --> 00:21:25.000
Or general questions ?

00:21:25.000 --> 00:21:27.000
Ok, no questions so I'm free. Merci.

00:21:27.000 --> 00:21:29.000
General questions ?

00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:30.500
One here, one here and one here.

00:21:30.500 --> 00:21:32.500
Yes, please, maybe you'd like

00:21:32.500 --> 00:21:34.000
to speak in a microphone ?

00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:37.000
If you want to come here,

00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:39.000
Yes, one quick question,

00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:41.000
I'm Eric Scherer at France Télévisions.

00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:42.500
How do you reconcile

00:21:42.500 --> 00:21:45.000
what you are saying,

00:21:45.000 --> 00:21:48.000
about open Internet and freedom of expression

00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:51.000
and the need to educate governments,

00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:52.500
members of Parliament

00:21:52.500 --> 00:21:55.500
and the rest of the society

00:21:55.500 --> 00:21:58.500
about what you are just saying?

00:21:58.500 --> 00:22:02.000
There is a big need of Internet literacy

00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:03.500
to the governments

00:22:03.500 --> 00:22:05.000
and to the members of Parliament.

00:22:05.000 --> 00:22:07.500
They are totally illiterate about that.

00:22:07.500 --> 00:22:09.000
How do you reconcile that?

00:22:09.000 --> 00:22:10.500
Shall I take this one?

00:22:10.500 --> 00:22:12.500
Well, that's what we are trying to do

00:22:12.500 --> 00:22:14.000
with « La Quadrature du Net »

00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:17.500
for more than 3 years now. And we are building,

00:22:17.500 --> 00:22:19.000
thanks to an open internet,

00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:21.500
a toolbox for citizens first of all

00:22:21.500 --> 00:22:23.000
to understand what's going on,

00:22:23.000 --> 00:22:25.500
and then to participate in the public debate.

00:22:25.500 --> 00:22:27.000
So, we, La Quadrature du Net,

00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:29.000
are nothing but the sum

00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:32.000
of all supporters caring about those issues

00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:33.500
and pushing for those issues,

00:22:33.500 --> 00:22:36.000
to the parliament, to the elected representatives

00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:38.000
and to all layers of civil society.

00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:41.000
I think we have all the tools,

00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:42.500
here on the table to do it,

00:22:42.500 --> 00:22:46.000
it's just a matter of working towards it.

00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:48.000
Larry ?

00:22:49.000 --> 00:22:51.500
Yes. I think that the net

00:22:51.500 --> 00:22:54.000
has been pretty good at educating itself

00:22:54.000 --> 00:22:57.000
about the values of this network.

00:22:57.000 --> 00:22:59.000
I can't speak for France or for Europe,

00:22:59.000 --> 00:23:00.500
but I think in the United States,

00:23:00.500 --> 00:23:04.500
we see in civil society communities

00:23:04.500 --> 00:23:06.500
that are engaged in trying to spread

00:23:06.500 --> 00:23:08.500
and defend what Internet is about.

00:23:08.500 --> 00:23:11.000
The problem that I see in the United States is,

00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:13.500
and again, I speak only of the United States:

00:23:13.500 --> 00:23:15.500
our government is so deeply corrupted

00:23:15.500 --> 00:23:17.500
by the dynamic that I'm talking about,

00:23:17.500 --> 00:23:20.500
that there is a wide gap between

00:23:20.500 --> 00:23:24.000
what the educators, the parents, the students,

00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:26.000
everybody understands

00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:27.500
the future policy should be,

00:23:27.500 --> 00:23:30.000
and what our government actually hears.

00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:33.000
So, I have shifted a bunch of my work

00:23:33.000 --> 00:23:34.500
towards addressing that issue of

00:23:34.500 --> 00:23:36.000
that corruption in the United States,

00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:37.500
because I don't think we get

00:23:37.500 --> 00:23:39.500
anything until we solve that.

00:23:39.500 --> 00:23:42.000
But I think that we have

00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:45.500
actually seen massive progress on this issue

00:23:45.500 --> 00:23:48.000
over the past decade, and I'm encouraged by that,

00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:50.000
at least in the context of what people think.

00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:55.500
There was one question somewhere... over here ?

00:23:55.500 --> 00:23:57.000
Ok. Jean-Jacques ?

00:23:57.000 --> 00:24:00.000
Do you want to come to the microphone or shout ?

00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:02.000
I can shout, if you can hear me.

00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:05.000
Jean-Jacques, I work for European Internet Company

00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:06.500
and I'm also Council member

00:24:06.500 --> 00:24:08.000
of the Internet Society, ISOC.

00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:10.500
Rather than questions, just to make a point,

00:24:10.500 --> 00:24:12.500
this is not actually just another

00:24:12.500 --> 00:24:15.000
of these ideas which are shared by civil society,

00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:17.000
a lot of these ideas are also shared by

00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:19.500
companies and actually the vast majority

00:24:19.500 --> 00:24:21.000
of Internet companies out there.

00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:23.500
Just yesterday, ISOC issued

00:24:23.500 --> 00:24:25.000
a press statement which also

00:24:25.000 --> 00:24:27.000
called for all stakeholders to be involved

00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:29.000
in this discussion around the internet

00:24:29.000 --> 00:24:30.500
and internet policy making.

00:24:30.500 --> 00:24:32.500
Without all stakeholders being involved

00:24:32.500 --> 00:24:34.500
have no point of having a discussion;

00:24:34.500 --> 00:24:36.500
and they also called for governments

00:24:36.500 --> 00:24:38.500
to uphold and protect the open

00:24:38.500 --> 00:24:41.000
and decentralised nature of the Internet.

00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:43.000
This is fundamental for all of us

00:24:43.000 --> 00:24:45.000
in this ecosystem. It needs to happen.

00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:48.000
This is not just about civil society.

00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:49.500
This is about users, civil society,

00:24:49.500 --> 00:24:52.000
technical communities and companies

00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:54.000
and governments sitting around the table

00:24:54.000 --> 00:24:55.500
discussing the issues.

00:24:55.500 --> 00:24:58.000
Thank you -- I actually want to take that up

00:24:58.000 --> 00:25:00.000
and emphasize it.

00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:02.000
We have a long tradition

00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:05.000
of thinking there is an opposition

00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:08.000
between efficiency or competition

00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:11.500
or markets, and justice and society,

00:25:11.500 --> 00:25:13.500
and that somehow we have to trade off

00:25:13.500 --> 00:25:16.000
between two competing goals

00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:19.000
that aid society: growth and welfare,

00:25:19.000 --> 00:25:21.500
and justice and redistribution.

00:25:21.500 --> 00:25:25.000
But in fact, what has happened with the Internet,

00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:30.000
is that growth and innovation is exactly

00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:32.500
what democracy and justice require.

00:25:32.500 --> 00:25:35.500
Both of them need the means of production

00:25:35.500 --> 00:25:38.000
distributed widely in the population,

00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:40.500
so that anyone can speak, anyone can create,

00:25:40.500 --> 00:25:42.500
anyone can create their own innovation,

00:25:42.500 --> 00:25:44.500
anyone can create their own business.

00:25:44.500 --> 00:25:47.000
This age old traditional divide is a divide

00:25:47.000 --> 00:25:49.000
of the industrial economy.

00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:52.000
We have been able to overcome that divide

00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:54.000
and today it's between

00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:56.000
20th century business models,

00:25:56.000 --> 00:25:58.500
and both innovation and growth

00:25:58.500 --> 00:26:02.500
and civil society, democracy and justice

00:26:02.500 --> 00:26:04.000
on the other opposing side.

00:26:04.000 --> 00:26:07.500
In that battle between on one hand innovation,

00:26:07.500 --> 00:26:10.000
growth, democracy and justice

00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:13.000
and preserving revenue streams

00:26:13.000 --> 00:26:14.000
of incumbent industries,

00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:16.000
it is not a closed choice.

00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:19.000
There was a question here ?

00:26:19.000 --> 00:26:21.000
Yes, I guess this question is really

00:26:21.000 --> 00:26:23.000
for Professor Lessig.

00:26:23.000 --> 00:26:27.000
Very basically, why is this so hard?

00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:29.000
You know the car came along,

00:26:29.000 --> 00:26:30.500
we have parking tickets,

00:26:30.500 --> 00:26:31.500
you can lose your license,

00:26:31.500 --> 00:26:33.000
there are charges for homicide.

00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:35.000
There is a wide range of penalties

00:26:35.000 --> 00:26:37.000
for all violation shit.

00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:39.000
Copyright law, as you rightly pointed out

00:26:39.000 --> 00:26:40.500
at the debate yesterday was

00:26:40.500 --> 00:26:44.000
the exact same one as it was in 1999.

00:26:44.000 --> 00:26:46.500
So the Internet is not new,

00:26:46.500 --> 00:26:48.000
copyright is not new

00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:50.000
and I know there are obviously different

00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:53.000
regulatory legal things around this,

00:26:53.000 --> 00:26:56.000
but why have we seemingly made

00:26:56.000 --> 00:26:58.000
no progress on coming up with

00:26:58.000 --> 00:27:00.500
a very basic framework that has penalties

00:27:00.500 --> 00:27:05.000
that fit all the different shades of violation?

00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:08.500
I think it's actually different depending on the country.

00:27:08.500 --> 00:27:11.000
I am struck by the debate

00:27:11.000 --> 00:27:12.500
in France around copyright.

00:27:12.500 --> 00:27:15.000
I was at conference at Avignon two years ago

00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:18.000
and I felt like it was 1995 all over again.

00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:21.000
Because as if nothing had been

00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:23.000
ever talked about this issues,

00:27:23.000 --> 00:27:25.000
it was the exact same framework

00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:26.500
that we were fighting back then.

00:27:26.500 --> 00:27:28.500
But other countries in Europe are different.

00:27:28.500 --> 00:27:30.000
I think Germany, for example,

00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:32.000
the green party has been pushing

00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:34.000
what they call a « cultural flat rate »

00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:36.000
that would be an alternative way

00:27:36.000 --> 00:27:38.000
to raise money for artists,

00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:40.500
that would decriminalize much of the activity

00:27:40.500 --> 00:27:44.000
which in France people would be kicked off the internet.

00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:46.000
And this point was made.

00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:47.500
I want to re-emphasize,

00:27:47.500 --> 00:27:50.500
there is something really outrageous,

00:27:50.500 --> 00:27:52.500
this point was made on my panel,

00:27:52.500 --> 00:27:56.500
by the French entrepreneurs.

00:27:56.500 --> 00:27:58.500
There is something really outrageous

00:27:58.500 --> 00:28:01.000
about the idea that the penalty

00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:02.500
that has been discussed in France

00:28:02.500 --> 00:28:04.000
is the idea that you disconnect yourself

00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:05.500
from the Internet.

00:28:05.500 --> 00:28:08.500
Only somebody seventy years old would think

00:28:08.500 --> 00:28:10.500
- people don’t touch the internet

00:28:10.500 --> 00:28:11.500
at seventy years old -

00:28:11.500 --> 00:28:12.500
would think that's proportionate.

00:28:12.500 --> 00:28:14.500
The idea that you will disconnect yourself

00:28:14.500 --> 00:28:17.000
from the most important infrastructure

00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:19.000
for community, and commerce,

00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:23.000
and political activity is outrageous

00:28:23.000 --> 00:28:25.000
and yet that is discussed here.

00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:27.000
And in other countries, the Nordic countries

00:28:27.000 --> 00:28:29.000
and in Germany it is a much more open debate.

00:28:29.000 --> 00:28:31.000
In United States again,

00:28:31.000 --> 00:28:32.000
I think it is just hide out

00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:34.000
by this political framework

00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:36.500
where both Democrats and Republicans

00:28:36.500 --> 00:28:40.000
are so deeply wedded to the content industry

00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:44.000
that you can’t even have an open debate

00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:45.500
about this issue among politicians.

00:28:45.500 --> 00:28:47.000
This is just not a political issue.

00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:49.500
And I think that we need to take advantage

00:28:49.500 --> 00:28:51.500
of places where it is a political issue.

00:28:51.500 --> 00:28:54.000
So Brazil has been extremely important

00:28:54.000 --> 00:28:56.500
getting people to recognize why

00:28:56.500 --> 00:28:58.000
there is an interesting

00:28:58.000 --> 00:29:00.000
opportunity here for development.

00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:02.000
And we need to push in those places

00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:03.500
to move it along.

00:29:03.500 --> 00:29:05.500
But finally, what has been amazing

00:29:05.500 --> 00:29:07.000
to me has been WIPO.

00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:10.500
I was at WIPO about six years ago,

00:29:10.500 --> 00:29:12.000
when I walked in the bulding I was the devil

00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:15.000
and the director general wouln't talk to me

00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:16.500
and everybody said no word.

00:29:16.500 --> 00:29:18.500
I was just there six months ago

00:29:18.500 --> 00:29:21.500
and the Director General is extraordinarily

00:29:21.500 --> 00:29:24.000
innovative in his ways of thinking about

00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:25.500
the way copyright has got to evolve.

00:29:25.500 --> 00:29:27.500
And he's thinking exactly about

00:29:27.500 --> 00:29:29.500
the kind of framework

00:29:29.500 --> 00:29:30.500
for thinking about what

00:29:30.500 --> 00:29:32.000
a future regime should look like,

00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:34.000
and I got to address the delegates,

00:29:34.000 --> 00:29:35.500
the delegates were encouraging

00:29:35.500 --> 00:29:37.000
and thinking about these issues.

00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:39.000
It was a completely different place.

00:29:39.000 --> 00:29:41.000
And I think we have to take an advantage of that

00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:43.000
to some point show countries like

00:29:43.000 --> 00:29:45.500
the United States and France that 1995

00:29:45.500 --> 00:29:48.000
thinking is so twentieth century.

00:29:49.000 --> 00:29:51.500
If I may add something on that, though?

00:29:51.500 --> 00:29:53.000
It's very difficult to add something

00:29:53.000 --> 00:29:55.000
on professor Lessig.

00:29:55.000 --> 00:29:57.500
Those companies with business models

00:29:57.500 --> 00:29:59.000
in the XXth century

00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:01.000
were based on controlling the channels

00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:02.500
of distribution of copies

00:30:02.500 --> 00:30:06.000
still have hope in managing to attain

00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:09.000
the same objective with the Internet.

00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:12.000
There is still a chance with the ongoing mergers

00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:14.000
between those medias group and telcos,

00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:17.000
with the very strong influence

00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:18.500
they have on policy makers.

00:30:18.500 --> 00:30:21.000
They still have a chance to turn the Internet,

00:30:21.000 --> 00:30:23.500
the universal Internet we love and share

00:30:23.500 --> 00:30:27.000
into a globalized distribution channel

00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:30.500
for Vivendi, Fox and those guys.

00:30:30.500 --> 00:30:33.000
So we're really at a turning point here:

00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:36.000
why they are continuing like it's 1999,

00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:39.000
it's because they probably still have a chance,

00:30:39.000 --> 00:30:41.000
and maybe they have a greater chance

00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:45.000
than they had in 1999 to achieve this objective

00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:49.000
I'm sure there are tons of other questions.

00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:54.000
Andrew Rasiej, the Personal Democracy Forum

00:30:54.000 --> 00:30:55.500
I just want to make a point,

00:30:55.500 --> 00:30:57.000
and you're welcome to comment on it,

00:30:57.000 --> 00:30:59.000
that the arguments will be made now

00:30:59.000 --> 00:31:00.500
by the government officials and by

00:31:00.500 --> 00:31:02.000
the incumbents that the digital divide

00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:04.000
has been bridged because

00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:05.500
broadband distribution is available

00:31:05.500 --> 00:31:07.500
in many places where it wasn't before.

00:31:07.500 --> 00:31:09.500
But they are not actually focussing

00:31:09.500 --> 00:31:11.000
on the fact there is a new digital divide

00:31:11.000 --> 00:31:13.000
that most working class people

00:31:13.000 --> 00:31:15.500
can’t afford the broadband that is available,

00:31:15.500 --> 00:31:17.000
and so we need a reframing

00:31:17.000 --> 00:31:19.500
of the term « digital divide » specifically around

00:31:19.500 --> 00:31:22.500
this subject which is that cost has reached

00:31:22.500 --> 00:31:25.000
beyond the point of most people

00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:26.500
to be able to participate

00:31:26.500 --> 00:31:27.500
in the 21th century economy.

00:31:27.500 --> 00:31:30.500
We have to be careful that they don’t argue

00:31:30.500 --> 00:31:32.500
against these points that you are making

00:31:32.500 --> 00:31:35.500
today to say that we bridge the digital divide

00:31:35.500 --> 00:31:38.000
and therefore obscure what is really going on.

00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:40.000
Yes, just to add onto that:

00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:42.500
to make things very simple,

00:31:42.500 --> 00:31:44.500
we are in a moment when government

00:31:44.500 --> 00:31:47.000
can join hands with the content industry

00:31:47.000 --> 00:31:50.000
and with the telcos to enforce scarcity,

00:31:50.000 --> 00:31:53.000
content controls, and lots of their desired goals,

00:31:53.000 --> 00:31:56.000
in a sense this is feeding a revenue model

00:31:56.000 --> 00:31:58.000
of governments and Hollywood

00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:00.500
to constrain Internet access,

00:32:00.500 --> 00:32:03.000
to make it much more like a 20th century

00:32:03.000 --> 00:32:07.000
broadcast medium and our older policy makers

00:32:07.000 --> 00:32:09.000
see the Internet as nothing more

00:32:09.000 --> 00:32:10.500
than a one-way screen.

00:32:10.500 --> 00:32:13.000
The rest of the world understands

00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:16.000
that the world has been turned upside down,

00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:17.500
anybody can be a publisher,

00:32:17.500 --> 00:32:20.000
anybody should get access to this platform

00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:21.500
for democracy, for speech,

00:32:21.500 --> 00:32:24.000
for content creation, for human flourishing.

00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:26.000
What we are witnessing today

00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:29.000
is the joining of hands of these giants incumbents

00:32:29.000 --> 00:32:31.000
-- and government is one of the incumbents --

00:32:31.000 --> 00:32:33.500
to try to keep things as they were.

00:32:33.500 --> 00:32:36.000
And many voices are being left

00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:37.500
out of that conversation

00:32:37.500 --> 00:32:39.500
who could add significantly.

00:32:39.500 --> 00:32:43.000
So a purpose of this meeting here today

00:32:43.000 --> 00:32:45.000
with all of you is to make sure that no one

00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:48.000
walks away thinking that there is consensus.

00:32:48.000 --> 00:32:52.000
There is no consensus on enforcing scarcity,

00:32:52.000 --> 00:32:56.000
higher prices and constrain access

00:32:56.000 --> 00:32:57.500
for world citizens.

00:32:57.500 --> 00:33:00.000
The next Google could come from France,

00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:02.000
could come from France,

00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:03.500
should come from France

00:33:03.500 --> 00:33:06.000
but if Internet access is constrained

00:33:06.000 --> 00:33:08.000
and controlled, it won't.

00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:12.000
I think this also provides an opportunity

00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:14.500
to talk about something that we

00:33:14.500 --> 00:33:17.000
- who come here from the US -

00:33:17.000 --> 00:33:19.000
can learn very well from France

00:33:19.000 --> 00:33:21.000
and perhaps that France can learn

00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:23.000
from itself and its own experience.

00:33:23.000 --> 00:33:26.500
In a study I did for the FCC last year,

00:33:26.500 --> 00:33:28.500
it became very clear

00:33:28.500 --> 00:33:32.000
that US broadband penetration,

00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:35.500
broadband prices, broadband speeds,

00:33:35.500 --> 00:33:39.000
relative to its performance in 2000-2001

00:33:39.000 --> 00:33:44.500
had declined from 2002 until 2009

00:33:44.500 --> 00:33:47.000
by comparison to European countries.

00:33:47.000 --> 00:33:50.000
In doing a very close case study

00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:52.000
of half the OECD countries,

00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:53.500
what became very clear

00:33:53.500 --> 00:33:56.000
was that on all these questions

00:33:56.000 --> 00:34:00.000
of penetration, speed and price,

00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:02.000
the critical intervention

00:34:02.000 --> 00:34:05.000
that European governments undertook,

00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:06.500
and in particular in this case

00:34:06.500 --> 00:34:09.000
very successfully the French government

00:34:09.000 --> 00:34:12.000
that has in France some of the lowest prices

00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:15.000
for the highest performance in the OECD

00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:19.500
because of this, is to force monopolists

00:34:19.500 --> 00:34:22.000
to introduce competition.

00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:25.500
And what we have to learn

00:34:25.500 --> 00:34:28.500
is that we take this simple principle,

00:34:28.500 --> 00:34:31.000
I mean understand whatever it is,

00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:33.500
that there is a core platform

00:34:33.500 --> 00:34:35.000
that can't be worked around,

00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:37.000
one of the things that government can do

00:34:37.000 --> 00:34:39.000
is to make sure that there is competition

00:34:39.000 --> 00:34:42.000
as a way of reaching this goal

00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:44.000
of not having people priced out

00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:47.000
even though in theory there is a connection.

00:34:47.000 --> 00:34:49.500
It is absolutely critical that we commit

00:34:49.500 --> 00:34:52.000
in the US to open access

00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:55.000
in the broadband physical layer,

00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:57.500
it is absolutely critical that we commit

00:34:57.500 --> 00:35:00.000
to open access higher up when

00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:02.000
we talk about mobile wireless,

00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:03.500
and we need to go to each country

00:35:03.500 --> 00:35:05.000
and learn what it has done well

00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:07.000
in its processes that have worked

00:35:07.000 --> 00:35:09.500
and translate that both to other countries

00:35:09.500 --> 00:35:12.000
and to other regulatory problems.

00:35:13.000 --> 00:35:17.000
If you are looking for some more digital divides,

00:35:17.000 --> 00:35:20.500
I can think of one.

00:35:20.500 --> 00:35:23.000
Wouldn't there be a digital divide

00:35:23.000 --> 00:35:27.500
between people being connected to universal,

00:35:27.500 --> 00:35:30.500
unrestricted Internet access

00:35:30.500 --> 00:35:33.000
and the people connected

00:35:33.000 --> 00:35:35.500
to some kind of restricted, blocked,

00:35:35.500 --> 00:35:38.500
throttled, prioritised network

00:35:38.500 --> 00:35:40.000
that isn't related to the Internet?

00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:42.000
And if we look at this divide,

00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:43.500
maybe there are already more people

00:35:43.500 --> 00:35:46.000
if you take into account China

00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:48.500
and mobile Internet users,

00:35:48.500 --> 00:35:50.000
there may be more people

00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:52.000
on the wrong side of that

00:35:52.000 --> 00:35:54.000
digital divide as of today.

00:35:55.000 --> 00:35:58.000
I'm sure there are plenty of other questions.

00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:02.000
Alex Howard, O'Reilly Media.

00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:05.500
To what extent can people make a difference?

00:36:05.500 --> 00:36:08.000
We've heard this communique has been leaked.

00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:11.000
What can and should civil society

00:36:11.000 --> 00:36:12.500
and average citizens do

00:36:12.500 --> 00:36:15.000
to actually make a difference

00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:16.500
to governments who are coming

00:36:16.500 --> 00:36:18.000
together tomorrow?

00:36:19.000 --> 00:36:22.000
As for tomorrow, we put up

00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:27.000
-- it's more of a joyful protest

00:36:27.000 --> 00:36:30.000
than something that may have an effect --

00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:32.000
we launched a website called

00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:36.000
g8internet.com on which we put a manifesto

00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:40.000
and called people to react by creative resistance.

00:36:40.000 --> 00:36:43.000
So there are dozens of works

00:36:43.000 --> 00:36:46.000
that are being submitted, some very funny videos

00:36:46.000 --> 00:36:48.000
or images, some trolls and so on.

00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:51.000
But beyond that, I think it's about using

00:36:51.000 --> 00:36:53.000
that freedom of expression

00:36:53.000 --> 00:36:55.000
and freedom of communication

00:36:55.000 --> 00:36:57.000
that we have between our hands

00:36:57.000 --> 00:36:59.000
in an unprecedented way,

00:36:59.000 --> 00:37:01.000
use it to make governments accountable,

00:37:01.000 --> 00:37:03.000
use it to make our elected

00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:05.000
representatives accountable,

00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:07.500
and that's one key point

00:37:07.500 --> 00:37:10.000
in the way we campaign

00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:11.500
at La Quadrature du Net,

00:37:11.500 --> 00:37:15.000
is to try to increase the political cost

00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:18.500
of taking the bad decision for policy makers.

00:37:18.500 --> 00:37:20.500
This is what we can do with our

00:37:20.500 --> 00:37:23.000
added freedom of expression.

00:37:23.000 --> 00:37:25.000
I just wanted to add to that

00:37:25.000 --> 00:37:26.500
and emphasise a point that Susan has made.

00:37:26.500 --> 00:37:28.000
I think that the biggest thing

00:37:28.000 --> 00:37:32.000
that we can do is to negate the framing

00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:36.500
of this conference as « everyone agrees here's

00:37:36.500 --> 00:37:38.000
what the future of the Internet needs ».

00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:40.500
And we negate that by first pointing out

00:37:40.500 --> 00:37:42.500
that « the Internet was not here »

00:37:42.500 --> 00:37:45.500
one slice of the Internet was here,

00:37:45.500 --> 00:37:47.000
companies that can afford

00:37:47.000 --> 00:37:48.500
the hundred thousand euros

00:37:48.500 --> 00:37:51.000
sponsorship cost and whatever else.

00:37:51.000 --> 00:37:52.500
They were here, that's fine,

00:37:52.500 --> 00:37:55.000
but another huge part of the Internet is not here

00:37:55.000 --> 00:37:58.500
and especially the innovating companies

00:37:58.500 --> 00:38:00.500
that five years from now

00:38:00.500 --> 00:38:02.000
will think of this equivalent of Twitter,

00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:03.500
they were not here and so

00:38:03.500 --> 00:38:06.000
« everybody was not here », number one;

00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:08.500
and number two « we all don't agree

00:38:08.500 --> 00:38:10.500
on the basic principles of what

00:38:10.500 --> 00:38:12.000
we should be doing going forward »,

00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:16.500
so I encourage the G8 to think about

00:38:16.500 --> 00:38:19.000
how to open up a conversation

00:38:19.000 --> 00:38:21.000
about what the Internet should look like.

00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:24.000
I think Sarkozy's decision this year

00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:25.500
to try to do that was a good one

00:38:25.500 --> 00:38:26.500
but the question is :

00:38:26.500 --> 00:38:28.500
« how do you do it so it really is the Internet

00:38:28.500 --> 00:38:30.000
that we're talking about

00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:32.500
and involve enough of the Internet

00:38:32.500 --> 00:38:34.500
so they we can begin a conversation

00:38:34.500 --> 00:38:37.000
towards that policy that would make sense ? »

00:38:37.000 --> 00:38:40.000
Larry, if I may, you've just said that

00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:42.000
you thought that it was a good idea

00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:44.000
that Sarkozy launched this discussion

00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:45.500
between governments.

00:38:45.500 --> 00:38:47.500
Don't you see this also maybe

00:38:47.500 --> 00:38:50.000
as some kind of takeover of Internet governance

00:38:50.000 --> 00:38:52.500
by government to some extent?

00:38:52.500 --> 00:38:55.500
Well, if the idea entails,

00:38:55.500 --> 00:38:58.000
I think as Jeff was putting it,

00:38:58.000 --> 00:38:59.500
the idea that we should be

00:38:59.500 --> 00:39:01.000
taking over the Internet in some way, yes,

00:39:01.000 --> 00:39:02.500
I don't think that's a good idea.

00:39:02.500 --> 00:39:04.500
But I think that it is necessary

00:39:04.500 --> 00:39:07.500
that we figure out how we preserve

00:39:07.500 --> 00:39:10.000
this ecology of the Internet.

00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:11.500
Like what do we do to make sure that it survives,

00:39:11.500 --> 00:39:13.500
and we need that conversation

00:39:13.500 --> 00:39:15.000
to include more people who say

00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:17.500
« keep your hands off of this part;

00:39:17.500 --> 00:39:20.500
intervene here, like Yochai was just saying

00:39:20.500 --> 00:39:23.000
to ensure competition in access

00:39:23.000 --> 00:39:24.500
at the physical layer ».

00:39:24.500 --> 00:39:26.500
That's a conversation that's complicated

00:39:26.500 --> 00:39:28.500
and important to have.

00:39:28.500 --> 00:39:30.500
And I think that we need to have that,

00:39:30.500 --> 00:39:33.000
and I think just right that we should have been

00:39:33.000 --> 00:39:35.000
facilitating that more on our own.

00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:36.500
We don't quite have the resources

00:39:36.500 --> 00:39:38.000
that France has perhaps

00:39:38.000 --> 00:39:41.500
to launch that conversation, but if we did,

00:39:41.500 --> 00:39:44.000
I'd be happy to have that conversation certainly.

00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:47.000
Yes, there's a choice between governments

00:39:47.000 --> 00:39:50.000
only talking about this which is what the eG8 is

00:39:50.000 --> 00:39:52.000
and a multi-stakeholders approach

00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:54.000
which would involve civil society,

00:39:54.000 --> 00:39:56.500
all the Internet users and the idea

00:39:56.500 --> 00:39:59.000
that the Internet is for everyone

00:39:59.000 --> 00:40:01.000
and not just for the large incumbents.

00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:07.500
But I'm... I'm still scared.

00:40:07.500 --> 00:40:09.500
And I want you to help me.

00:40:09.500 --> 00:40:11.000
I think it's the right question:

00:40:11.000 --> 00:40:13.000
« What the fuck do we do? »

00:40:13.000 --> 00:40:15.000
Right? We can talk here,

00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:17.000
we can change the framing.

00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:21.000
But governments have the force of law

00:40:21.000 --> 00:40:23.500
and companies have the force of the kill switch.

00:40:23.500 --> 00:40:28.500
And so I'm not sure what it is that we,

00:40:28.500 --> 00:40:31.000
the people of the Internet, really do.

00:40:31.000 --> 00:40:33.500
What is the force that we are...

00:40:33.500 --> 00:40:38.000
I'm a faux professor in journalism

00:40:38.000 --> 00:40:41.500
so it's ballsy of me to quote Habermas.

00:40:41.500 --> 00:40:47.500
But the counter to the weight

00:40:47.500 --> 00:40:49.500
of government that he sought in the salons

00:40:49.500 --> 00:40:52.500
and coffee houses, that I think is questionable,

00:40:52.500 --> 00:40:54.500
we do have now, as a counterweight

00:40:54.500 --> 00:40:56.000
to government and a counterweight

00:40:56.000 --> 00:40:57.500
because Sarkozy said yesterday

00:40:57.500 --> 00:40:59.500
that government is the only appropriate

00:40:59.500 --> 00:41:01.000
spokesman for the people of a nation.

00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:02.500
God forbid no!

00:41:02.500 --> 00:41:04.500
Tell that to Wael Ghonim in Egypt.

00:41:04.500 --> 00:41:06.500
The internet became the means

00:41:06.500 --> 00:41:09.000
for the true voice of Egypt to come out.

00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:13.000
And so I really ought to say

00:41:13.000 --> 00:41:15.500
I don’t know what to do,

00:41:15.500 --> 00:41:19.000
is there anything else we should be pointing out ?

00:41:19.000 --> 00:41:21.000
Here is one point:

00:41:21.000 --> 00:41:24.000
you know, we can romanticize the Internet

00:41:24.000 --> 00:41:26.500
and I have spent many many years as a cheerleader

00:41:26.500 --> 00:41:30.500
but the fact is, what the Internet does,

00:41:30.500 --> 00:41:32.500
what people on the Internet do,

00:41:32.500 --> 00:41:35.500
is more effective in some places than others

00:41:35.500 --> 00:41:37.000
So I don't know if you saw

00:41:37.000 --> 00:41:38.500
when the big bank bonuses were

00:41:38.500 --> 00:41:41.000
recently announced and Goldman Sachs

00:41:41.000 --> 00:41:42.500
-- huge bank bonuses.

00:41:42.500 --> 00:41:44.000
In the United States there was

00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:45.500
some frustration about it.

00:41:45.500 --> 00:41:49.000
In Holland there was a twitter campain against,

00:41:49.000 --> 00:41:51.000
that led to the governement

00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:53.000
blocking bankers in Holland

00:41:53.000 --> 00:41:54.500
from taking those bonuses,

00:41:54.500 --> 00:41:58.000
a kind of unimaginable effectiveness

00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:00.500
of the Internet to goverment policy

00:42:00.500 --> 00:42:02.000
by getting involved in having

00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:03.500
a government listen.

00:42:03.500 --> 00:42:04.500
And you know,

00:42:04.500 --> 00:42:06.000
compare that to the United States

00:42:06.000 --> 00:42:08.000
where we just lost a battle in North Carolina,

00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:10.000
where after the telecom companies

00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:11.500
had succeeded into getting

00:42:11.500 --> 00:42:13.000
the federal government to say

00:42:13.000 --> 00:42:15.000
« No regulation of telecom companies,

00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:17.000
not having any of your open access regulation

00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:18.500
that Yochaim has been arguing for,

00:42:18.500 --> 00:42:20.000
not even having any effective

00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:21.500
network neutrality regulation.

00:42:21.500 --> 00:42:23.000
They then went to the states,

00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:25.000
because in the states,

00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:27.000
you have local communities

00:42:27.000 --> 00:42:29.000
that are building their own high-speed networks

00:42:29.000 --> 00:42:31.000
much faster, much cheaper

00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:33.500
than what the telecom monopolies provide.

00:42:33.500 --> 00:42:36.000
And the telecom monopolies didn’t like that,

00:42:36.000 --> 00:42:38.000
so what they did is they got the states

00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:39.500
to pass laws banning

00:42:39.500 --> 00:42:43.500
this local telecom franchises.

00:42:43.500 --> 00:42:46.000
So here they do not want any regulation

00:42:46.000 --> 00:42:47.500
from the federal government

00:42:47.500 --> 00:42:48.500
but they want state regulation

00:42:48.500 --> 00:42:50.500
to block some competition from local...

00:42:50.500 --> 00:42:52.500
So we try to raise a campaign

00:42:52.500 --> 00:42:55.000
around this and though we get thousands

00:42:55.000 --> 00:42:57.000
of people calling the governor,

00:42:57.000 --> 00:42:58.500
the governor doesn't think she needs

00:42:58.500 --> 00:43:00.000
to pay any attention to

00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:02.000
the internet community at all

00:43:02.000 --> 00:43:03.500
So the difference here is not so much

00:43:03.500 --> 00:43:06.000
the internet: the internet is the same.

00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:08.000
The difference is the political culture

00:43:08.000 --> 00:43:10.000
that feels that it needs to pay attention to it.

00:43:10.000 --> 00:43:12.500
And the only way to force a political culture

00:43:12.500 --> 00:43:14.000
to pay attention to you

00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:16.500
is to punish them when they don't.

00:43:16.500 --> 00:43:20.000
So in France, this three-strikes fact (Hadopi Law)

00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:23.000
should be a source of extraordinary political

00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:25.000
organization to punish

00:43:25.000 --> 00:43:26.500
the French government and obviously...

00:43:26.500 --> 00:43:27.500
It is, it is

00:43:27.500 --> 00:43:29.000
...it is of course. It is!...

00:43:29.000 --> 00:43:30.500
but the point is when that gets delivered

00:43:30.500 --> 00:43:32.000
and that had a message,

00:43:32.000 --> 00:43:35.500
when you go from a 5% return to a 20% return

00:43:35.500 --> 00:43:37.500
then you're going to see

00:43:37.500 --> 00:43:39.000
people recognize the internet is a force.

00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:41.500
But we need to do that everywhere,

00:43:41.500 --> 00:43:43.000
it is not something we can take for granted,

00:43:43.000 --> 00:43:44.500
it is really something that's a culture

00:43:44.500 --> 00:43:46.000
that needs to be built.

00:43:46.000 --> 00:43:47.000
So what I hear you saying,

00:43:47.000 --> 00:43:49.500
to oversimplify as is my want:

00:43:49.500 --> 00:43:50.500
we're not protecting the internet,

00:43:50.500 --> 00:43:52.000
we're protecting the speech, still.

00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:53.500
Well, to simplify it even further,

00:43:53.500 --> 00:43:56.500
when roles and office depend on

00:43:56.500 --> 00:43:58.000
understanding what the internet is

00:43:58.000 --> 00:44:01.000
and forwarding the internet's openess,

00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:04.000
then we'll get the result we need.

00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:06.000
If we can vote people in or out

00:44:06.000 --> 00:44:08.000
based on their reaction to the internet.

00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:10.000
Then we'll be going somewhere.

00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:11.500
Governments only listen to

00:44:11.500 --> 00:44:13.500
the people who elect them

00:44:13.500 --> 00:44:16.500
and the businesses that fund their campaigns.

00:44:16.500 --> 00:44:19.500
Right? So Larry is taking on the businesses

00:44:19.500 --> 00:44:21.000
that fund their campaigns.

00:44:21.000 --> 00:44:23.500
We, the internet people,

00:44:23.500 --> 00:44:25.000
have to take on their election.

00:44:25.000 --> 00:44:27.000
This has to become, as it has become in Australia

00:44:27.000 --> 00:44:30.000
and in Canada, an issue

00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:32.000
for the electoral politics.

00:44:33.000 --> 00:44:34.000
Maybe we can ...

00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:36.000
actually, we are all replying

00:44:36.000 --> 00:44:38.500
with our own words to the great question of Jeff.

00:44:38.500 --> 00:44:41.000
Maybe this will be used as a conclusion

00:44:41.000 --> 00:44:42.500
I don't know, maybe there will be

00:44:42.500 --> 00:44:44.000
some more questions but ...

00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:48.000
There will be, there's one more question ...

00:44:48.000 --> 00:44:52.000
In my view we have to continue

00:44:52.000 --> 00:44:53.500
what we are doing, doing it more

00:44:53.500 --> 00:44:55.500
and being more numerous to do it.

00:44:55.500 --> 00:44:57.000
I've got a few examples

00:44:57.000 --> 00:44:58.000
with our own campaigning

00:44:58.000 --> 00:45:00.000
where we really made a difference,

00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:02.000
whether it is with the amendment 138

00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:03.500
in the European Parliament

00:45:03.500 --> 00:45:05.500
that made everybody be shaking

00:45:05.500 --> 00:45:10.000
with fear of « Internet's freedom issue »

00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:13.000
we moved the lines in the ACTA agreement,

00:45:13.000 --> 00:45:16.500
we directly changed some of its contents

00:45:16.500 --> 00:45:20.000
and when we leaked that letter

00:45:20.000 --> 00:45:21.500
from Nicolas Sarkozy to Bernard Kouchner,

00:45:21.500 --> 00:45:24.000
who was at the time minister of foreign affairs,

00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:26.000
who was to organise a conference

00:45:26.000 --> 00:45:28.000
about freedom of speech on the Internet,

00:45:28.000 --> 00:45:29.000
Sarkozy telling him

00:45:29.000 --> 00:45:31.000
« in the balance of the freedom of speech

00:45:31.000 --> 00:45:32.500
on the Internet, you'll put the HADOPI

00:45:32.500 --> 00:45:34.000
and you'll put the civilized Internet »,

00:45:34.000 --> 00:45:35.500
just leaking that letter

00:45:35.500 --> 00:45:38.500
and organizing the leak with our Dutch friends

00:45:38.500 --> 00:45:40.000
from Bits of Freedom made

00:45:40.000 --> 00:45:42.000
the whole conference to be cancelled.

00:45:42.000 --> 00:45:44.000
So we have examples already

00:45:44.000 --> 00:45:47.000
of civil society pressures getting to a result.

00:45:47.000 --> 00:45:50.500
I think it is the way we use our

00:45:50.500 --> 00:45:57.000
freedoms of speech or expression.

00:45:57.000 --> 00:45:59.000
I think it is the way we use it collectively

00:45:59.000 --> 00:46:02.500
that makes us be citizens,

00:46:02.500 --> 00:46:04.000
that makes us do our jobs of citizens

00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:06.000
that makes us participate to politics

00:46:06.000 --> 00:46:10.500
in the noble antic sense of citizens carrying

00:46:10.500 --> 00:46:13.000
of the life of the « Cité » and this is exactly

00:46:13.000 --> 00:46:15.000
what we have to do between two elections

00:46:15.000 --> 00:46:18.500
and this how we win if you have

00:46:18.500 --> 00:46:20.000
some volunteer time to contribute.

00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:22.000
Well said

00:46:23.000 --> 00:46:26.500
I just want to hear Yochai's answer

00:46:26.500 --> 00:46:29.000
to Jeff's question first if you don't mind.

00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:32.000
I don't want to take more time.

00:46:32.000 --> 00:46:35.000
It's just, the stories you heard

00:46:35.000 --> 00:46:37.000
tell both that we know how

00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:38.500
and that it is very hard.

00:46:38.500 --> 00:46:40.500
There are success stories,

00:46:40.500 --> 00:46:42.000
there are failure stories.

00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:44.000
But kinds of civil organisation

00:46:44.000 --> 00:46:46.000
that were extremely difficult

00:46:46.000 --> 00:46:49.000
and happened only in great moments of crisis

00:46:49.000 --> 00:46:51.000
when people came out in the streets

00:46:51.000 --> 00:46:53.000
are now more feasible

00:46:53.000 --> 00:46:55.000
at lower levels of activation.

00:46:55.000 --> 00:46:57.500
Whether it's free software developers

00:46:57.500 --> 00:46:59.500
organising against software patents

00:46:59.500 --> 00:47:01.000
at the European level,

00:47:01.000 --> 00:47:04.000
whether it's the story you just call

00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:06.000
about the conference on free speech,

00:47:06.000 --> 00:47:08.000
the level of activation necessary

00:47:08.000 --> 00:47:10.000
because the effort necessary

00:47:10.000 --> 00:47:11.500
to participate is lower,

00:47:11.500 --> 00:47:14.000
allows us more direct participation

00:47:14.000 --> 00:47:16.000
but the stakes are very

00:47:16.000 --> 00:47:18.000
very high on the other side.

00:47:18.000 --> 00:47:20.000
If you look at the net neutrality

00:47:20.000 --> 00:47:21.500
debates in the United States,

00:47:21.500 --> 00:47:24.000
we did exactly that, we put it on the,

00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:26.000
oh you, put it on the agenda.

00:47:26.000 --> 00:47:29.500
It became a real agenda item, the only thing -

00:47:29.500 --> 00:47:31.000
« We are unfortunatly not able

00:47:31.000 --> 00:47:32.500
to provide you the last 3 minutes

00:47:32.500 --> 00:47:34.000
of the Press conference.

00:47:34.000 --> 00:47:37.000
See you on Owni.fr »